Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[Deejay435]

I get what you're all saying. Really, I do. And I would have loved to have seen such a scene as you guys describe. I just find it hard to criticise the episode for a lack of team caring and understanding in the wake of so much teamy goodness. All I see when I watch Heroes is great caring interaction among Teal'c, Carter, Hammond, O'neill, and yes, even Daniel. Daniel is the only one save Bregman who gets to actually have a scene with Janet. He's the one who gets to be there when she dies, and he's the one who gets to be there as they work on Wells. In that scene, I think Michael Shanks and Teryl Rothery do a great job of showing just how intuitively close Daniel and Janet are. Their absolute trust in each other's capabilities and mettle while showing grim compassion for Wells is part of what makes that battle sequence so fantastic for me. I don't know, I just have a hard time feeling like Daniel lost out in Heroes.

This feeling is buoyed by the fact that back in those days I never felt like I had to worry about team interaction. I knew that Jack, Sam, Teal'c, and Daniel all cared about each other. It was demonstrated to me over and over. It's only in recent seasons that I feel like the relationships among the original three have been neglected by the writers in favor of relationships with the new characters. Now, Daniel's only interaction with anyone seems to be almost exclusively with Vala. But that's a different argument altogether.

Yeah. It's one of the episodes that cemented me as a Daniel fan. He didn't appeal to me as naturally as Sam did, and there are episodes where I'm really rather nuetral about him. But then something like Heroes comes along, and I'm just blown away by the character. My DVR gets a workout during that episode, as I rewind to watch some of the Daniel scenes over and over again.

[Dani347]

I can't really be enthusiastic about his scene with Janet. Actually, I'm probably not really the best person to discuss, since I'm going mainly from memory (since I dislike the episode and don't watch it that much) Because although, from a writing pov, it's good and gives both MS and TR a chance to work together (which the little D/J shipper in me enjoys) it's ultimately a painful scene, because of what ends up happening. I guess for me, the bottom line is, I want comfort, darn it I'm a huge hurt/comfort fan, and my focus is usually trained on Daniel, so when I'm watching and want to hug him, I expect his friends to do the hugging (not always literally hugging, although I'm never opposed to it), and when they don't, it just makes the episode poorer. But, I think the writers put more effort into the hurt than they do the comfort.

And, it's been awhile since I've watched season 7, but to me, compared to the earlier seasons, I didn't sense that caring. I've read people saying that by this time, everyone knows that they're friends (usually directed towards the Jack/Daniel friendship) so they didn't need to show it anymore. And, I just mixed up tenses. Anyway, I got the impression that the writers were looking at it that way.

And, I agree about the Vala thing. Check out the posts in the anti Daniel/Vala thread. Got a nice little discussion going there.

[Rachel500]

Right. As I said in my reply to Sprinkles, I see this as more of a wish list item rather than a criticism. In a story already so full of huge character moments and huge plot moments and huge socio-political statements to be made, I get why there's no such scene. For the record, I'd have loved to have had more Jack in the episode, period. The deleted scene with Jack at his house that was posted at Scifi really did belong in the episode.

I guess whether its a wish or a criticism depends on whether you think the episode lost something by the lack of the scene...and I do think Heroes lost something by not having a reaction scene between Daniel and an SG1 team-mate, and I personally would have gone for either Daniel with Jack or with Teal'c as this would have given either of those characters another reaction moment beyond the one they got with Sam.

Heroes is a very teamy story (and not just around SG1 but actually in the wider sense of the SGC) but I want more (what can I say I'm greedy that way). For me, the writers should never assume that the audience knows the friendships between the team exist and that they would 'obviously' be there for each other. Daniel in Season 7 had just returned from Ascension, I personally would have liked to have seen more scenes (not just in Heroes but elsewhere beyond Orpheus) reaffirming his closeness with his team-mates; Heroes was an opportunity missed in my book for this.

For me, when we see Daniel pushing Bregman away, it is not just about grief and him wanting to isolate himself; it's about the continued struggle between what the SGC believes should be in a documentary and what Bregman wants to show; its about the trust between the documentary participants and its maker.

Don't get me wrong, I love Saul too. I thinks he's a fabulous actor (the TNG Trek episode he did is one of my favourites) and I love his scenes with Daniel with that whole discussion of the tape, the 'Nam photograph and the final decision on the tape. These aren't the ones I would cut to provide additional time for a Daniel/SG1 team-mate reaction scene.

Fair enough. I'm the opposite, by the way. If I had to choose between the two, I'd say the second part beats the first to a bloody pulp. However, that's not how I look at Heroes. When it comes to Stargate two-parters I see some as two episodes that are connected and some that are just one big episode cut in half. Prometheus and Unnatural Selection is an example of the former, while Heroes or Lost City or Jolinar's Memories and The Devil You Know are examples of the latter. All of Heroes is, to me, the same story. And even during that funny first half, there is quietly building tension and sense of foreboding to the story. Couched in jokes is the escalating situation on the planet, which is excellently foreshadowed by the uncharacteristically grim walk and talk the team does at the end of part one. It's an example of the writer (RCC) slowly pushing the proverbial rock all the way up the hill. He just doesn't push it over until the second half of the story.

I agree that its one story over two episodes (that's the way I view it too) but for me RC did a better job on building up to the main events of the story (the escalating tension, the nice window into another SG team other than SG1, Bregman's delight and struggle to make the best documentary he can, the actual rescue - Jack's injury, Daniel and Janet working on Airman Wells) and less well on dealing with the aftermath where I do think the story becomes imbalanced with the tease of who has died and Bregman's search for the truth initially overshadowing the team's reactions. We'll have to agree to disagree. Overall, I still think Heroes is a good two hours of Stargate so I would guess we're in agreement there.

[Pitry]

Mmm, I have to agree with Goolfboy's initial post.

A couple more comments, tho.

Concerning Meridian, I get what you're all saying. First, I guess for me - as I dind't know MS was leaving when I watched the episode, I still remmeber - and still feel about it - an excellent episode, with a huge WTF 3-4 last minutes. Sadness wasn't part of the equation til after I watched the episode - well, and 4 years later, too. But the things is about the team moments in Meridian - as you've all mentioned, everyone is coming to Daniel. But Daniel is pushing them away. His replies to everything Jack, Sam or Teal'c are telling him (whether they hear it or not) is sarcastic, his discussion with Oma emphasise that - she's the one to tell him his friends are trying to tell him something, and at the end he chooses to leave his friends behind hoping to find his place (as was also mentioned in Orpheus).
Now, as for Heroes, yes, I would agree that maybe the team should have looked for him - but I think after 7 years they've come to know Daniel well enough to know that perhaps he prefers to be alone. As everyone agreed in this thread, this is Daniel's way of dealing with lose. It stands to reason his best friends and the closest thing he has to a family would know it, too.

And... I love team moments, and the team aspect of the show. But I'm not a team "purists", shall we say. Perhaps the best wya to put it is Goolfboy's - I never felt the need to look for that angle because it was always there.
For me, if there should be a choice between a relatively weaker team moment or a stronger moment that isn't team, I'd choose the stronger one (and since it's already been mentioned, that was exactly my original point in the Anti Vala/ Daniel thread current discussion, too ). Having the rest of the team comfort each other is the message of life goes on, of comfort, and of hanging on to each other. Having Daniel alone is a message of pain and lose - which for me, especially the way it was done in heroes - is the stronger scene - especially taking into consideration Daniel's history and probably unique perspective on death. Softening that message by bringing a comfort scene for Daniel would have lessened the impact of the episode - in my opinion, of course
So I can't say I'm fussed about the lack of team moment that includes Daniel - or even glad it wasn't there, because I know he's a part of the team and an important one at that, and it's not that lack of moment that would put that in a question mark, while the strength of the message would have been dimmed.

well, that and the fact I truely do love heroes, despite Janet's death. As I said - I agree with Goolfboy, I think this was one of the better done kill offs I've seen on television.

[Dani347]

Okay, a slight detour. I mean, still about Daniel's isolation, but less about whether it satisfies the viewers. It's interesting that Daniel isolates himself, but when other people are going through difficult times, he seeks them out. The one where Cassie was sick (can't recall the name) he told Janet she didn't have to go through it alone. The moment that sealed my Daniel love was in Singularity, the whole detached scene, him going to see Sam. He refuses to leave Jack in The Fifth Race. He sees Teal'c in Orpheus. Not to mention various other people, like the airman in Heroes. Is that typical for a person to be so open about being there for others, but hide away when he ould use it? Is it just a natural part of Daniel's nature? Or, can we assume that there's some meaning, maybe something to do with his past?

[Mickey23]

Okay, a slight detour. I mean, still about Daniel's isolation, but less about whether it satisfies the viewers. It's interesting that Daniel isolates himself, but when other people are going through difficult times, he seeks them out. The one where Cassie was sick (can't recall the name) he told Janet she didn't have to go through it alone. The moment that sealed my Daniel love was in Singularity, the whole detached scene, him going to see Sam. He refuses to leave Jack in The Fifth Race. He sees Teal'c in Orpheus. Not to mention various other people, like the airman in Heroes. Is that typical for a person to be so open about being there for others, but hide away when he ould use it? Is it just a natural part of Daniel's nature? Or, can we assume that there's some meaning, maybe something to do with his past?

I do really love those instances you mentioned where he was there for others. I have said before that that was one of the things I love most about Daniel. Being there for Jack in "The Fifth Race" and "Abyss"; being there for Teal'c in "Orpheus" and "Cor-ai"; being there for Janet and Sam when they needed him, being there for Airman Wells, even though he didn't really know him that well, trying to give comfort to the Russian guy when he was dying in "Lockdown" - basically always there for others when they needed him. I mean, come on. He even came back for Jack and Teal'c in Season 6 after he ascended and stuff that happened on the mortal plane shouldn't have been a concern for him anymore.
And yes, Daniel is very much like that. Isolated when dealing with his own emotions, open and understanding with others' emotions. Those instances and many others show a Daniel who is always there for his friends or co-workers or people he doesn't really know well at all but feels for. But he is often isolated. Interestingly, I didn't really pick up on this being a problem or unusual. I just accepted it. I think there are people out there who have a lot of compassion, sympathy, and empathy for others, but themselves are isolated, and do not show these emotions publicly. I am not sure if Daniel if doesn't realize that the others are there for him, or he just doesn't accept comfort from others. Either could be explained from his past. The horrific loss of his parents, foster families, a grandpa who didn't want him, laughed out of academia. Daniel said once that he felt out of place in his life, and I don't think his life pre-Stargate was very happy. But was that an extension of his sad past or just something internal?
I guess what I am trying to say is that it could be reactive, that he has had times in the past where he needed someone to comfort him, but no one was there (ie Nick was gone when he needed him after his parents died), so he decided to try and not need to be comforted by others. He tries to keep his emotions in check and deal with emotional pain in his own way.
On the other hand, it could very well be that that is his personality. Some people are just very mpathetic, sensitive, and caring toward others. And there are people out there who just keep to themselves, keep emotions internal, and are content in their own company. Aren't there people who fit into both of these categories?
And I don't really know which viewpoint I ascribe to. (So I didn't really answer your question, did I? )

[Mickey23]

Ok, quick comment. We had talked about Daniel's glasses earlier. I really didn't like how they looked on him in "200."
But now, watching "Memento Mori," I think they look really good on him. It may be that I am getting used to them, or the angle of the cameras, or whatever. But, yeah, they look good on Daniel. They fit his face so much better.
Ooh, back on.

[gategirl2]

I appreciate Daniel Very Very much!! in fact i love daniel!!

[Rachel500]

So...the threads been a little quiet...any post Memento Mori reaction on how Daniel's character was portrayed in the episode?

[golfbooy]

So...the threads been a little quiet...any post Memento Mori reaction on how Daniel's character was portrayed in the episode?

Ooh look, bait!

Spoiler:

Well, I've already expressed my oh so happy thoughts on Memento Mori in the episode thread, so I'm going to try to stick to Daniel in particular here. And I'll do that by reitierating what I said in that other post. I like seeing Daniel have an emotional connection to the people around him. And I don't mind, per se, the Daniel/Vala ship. But I can't help but shake the feeling that the whole relationship is more for Vala's benefit than it is for Daniel's. That is, without this tenuous emotional tie to Daniel, Vala would be drifting off in SG-1 team limbo with Cameron Mitchell. There's no reason for her to be on the team, she really has yet to add something to SG-1 or the characters, and despite having by far the most serious/dramatic ties to the Ori storyline, Vala has done nothing but provide comic relief. So her growing relationship with Daniel is just about the only thing that has bonded her to SG-1.

Daniel, on the other hand, continues to be denied interacting with Carter, Teal'c, and Cam because he's constantly tied to Vala. For the record, I don't hate seeing Daniel and Vala together. In fact, I'm liking it much more since the stupidly annoying bickering and sniping seem to be disappearing somewhat. Daniel doesn't need to be in a relationship with Vala in order to "fit" the team. I'd actually like to see him more with Sam and Teal'c at this point.

I don't hate seeing romantic relationships in SG-1, in and of themselves. In fact, at this point, I whole-heartedly believe it would be a terrible, heinous failure of the writing and producing if Sam's and Jack's relationship isn't clarified and tied up in some way. Like it or not, think it's a good thing or not, too much has gone in to that aspect of both characters to leave it as it is. Pretending that giant chunks of SG-1 history hadn't happened really bothered me in season nine. But that has gotten better in season ten. However, there is a continuing act as if whole character journeys and giant chunks of seminal character investment didn't happen for Jack and Sam (and for Teal'c, too. Ryac? Ishta? Hello?). That is absolutely hateful. And specatcularly poor writing, to boot. So, I'd like to see the Daniel/Vala thing not make it to that "must be addressed for closure" point.

I think that so far Daniel's would-be relationship with Vala has hurt the character, at least to an extent. I'm having a hard time believing that Daniel is so mixed up and confused about his feelings as we're seeing onscreen. Daniel is really smart. I'm talking really, really super smart. I don't buy that he's unaware of any romantic feelings for Vala that do exist. I don't buy that Daniel hasn't taken an emotional inventory and asked himself how he feels about her. That's what Daniel does; he's the one member of the team who does tend to explore emotions. So I hate the portrayal of Daniel as being in love with Vala but not knowing it or refusing to accept it. And as much as I don't want to see that on the show, pragmatic as I am, I have to accept that that is what I'm being presented with by the writers and by Michael Shanks. I know that last year much was made of Vala "putting Daniel off his guard", but that's the one thing I don't buy about the Daniel/Vala show. He's too passive for me nowadays. Daniel needs to be less of a punching (and accessory) bag for Vala, but I don't see that happening if the romantic relationship that Memento Mori implies is pushed much farther.

I am rather unhappy with the way this post reads, but am too lazy to fix it.

[Rachel500]

Ooh look, bait!

Spoiler:

Well, I've already expressed my oh so happy thoughts on Memento Mori in the episode thread, so I'm going to try to stick to Daniel in particular here. And I'll do that by reitierating what I said in that other post. I like seeing Daniel have an emotional connection to the people around him. And I don't mind, per se, the Daniel/Vala ship. But I can't help but shake the feeling that the whole relationship is more for Vala's benefit than it is for Daniel's. That is, without this tenuous emotional tie to Daniel, Vala would be drifting off in SG-1 team limbo with Cameron Mitchell. There's no reason for her to be on the team, she really has yet to add something to SG-1 or the characters, and despite having by far the most serious/dramatic ties to the Ori storyline, Vala has done nothing but provide comic relief. So her growing relationship with Daniel is just about the only thing that has bonded her to SG-1.

Daniel, on the other hand, continues to be denied interacting with Carter, Teal'c, and Cam because he's constantly tied to Vala. For the record, I don't hate seeing Daniel and Vala together. In fact, I'm liking it much more since the stupidly annoying bickering and sniping seem to be disappearing somewhat. Daniel doesn't need to be in a relationship with Vala in order to "fit" the team. I'd actually like to see him more with Sam and Teal'c at this point.

I don't hate seeing romantic relationships in SG-1, in and of themselves. In fact, at this point, I whole-heartedly believe it would be a terrible, heinous failure of the writing and producing if Sam's and Jack's relationship isn't clarified and tied up in some way. Like it or not, think it's a good thing or not, too much has gone in to that aspect of both characters to leave it as it is. Pretending that giant chunks of SG-1 history hadn't happened really bothered me in season nine. But that has gotten better in season ten. However, there is a continuing act as if whole character journeys and giant chunks of seminal character investment didn't happen for Jack and Sam (and for Teal'c, too. Ryac? Ishta? Hello?). That is absolutely hateful. And specatcularly poor writing, to boot. So, I'd like to see the Daniel/Vala thing not make it to that "must be addressed for closure" point.

I think that so far Daniel's would-be relationship with Vala has hurt the character, at least to an extent. I'm having a hard time believing that Daniel is so mixed up and confused about his feelings as we're seeing onscreen. Daniel is really smart. I'm talking really, really super smart. I don't buy that he's unaware of any romantic feelings for Vala that do exist. I don't buy that Daniel hasn't taken an emotional inventory and asked himself how he feels about her. That's what Daniel does; he's the one member of the team who does tend to explore emotions. So I hate the portrayal of Daniel as being in love with Vala but not knowing it or refusing to accept it. And as much as I don't want to see that on the show, pragmatic as I am, I have to accept that that is what I'm being presented with by the writers and by Michael Shanks. I know that last year much was made of Vala "putting Daniel off his guard", but that's the one thing I don't buy about the Daniel/Vala show. He's too passive for me nowadays. Daniel needs to be less of a punching (and accessory) bag for Vala, but I don't see that happening if the romantic relationship that Memento Mori implies is pushed much farther.

I am rather unhappy with the way this post reads, but am too lazy to fix it.

Oh look! I caught something!

Interesting.

Spoiler:

I do think it would be a 'terrible and heinous failure of the writing and producing' if they don't acknowledge that some of the threads they thought they had tied up in S8 have become unravelled by having S9 and 10, before the end of S10. Hopefully the fact they actually had Daniel remember he was married and his history is a turning of the tide in terms of them 'forgetting' past character background and development.

It's quite interesting to me to read the take on Daniel with Vala. I have to admit that from everything I've seen and read to date on S10, his character isn't getting very much time with Cam, Sam or Teal'c, although spoilers for some of the later episodes indicate this might change towards the latter part of the Season...especially with MS being absent for another two episodes. And I'm hoping The Shroud gives us a big Jack/Daniel story like Abyss.

I agree that Daniel is the one member of the team that really explores emotions but I also think that its not unusual for someone when they're potentially scared of a relationship deluding themselves about their own feelings (basic human nature). As I would prefer not to see Daniel and Vala as a romantic couple, (I prefer them as sparring partners), it's a little disturbing to hear they're playing up whether Daniel is interested or not and suggesting subtly (or not so subtly) that actually he might be.

So, thank you for taking the bait. It was much appreciated to get some post-MM Daniel feedback.

[Mickey23]

Spoiler:

...As I would prefer not to see Daniel and Vala as a romantic couple, (I prefer them as sparring partners), it's a little disturbing to hear they're playing up whether Daniel is interested or not and suggesting subtly (or not so subtly) that actually he might be.

I'm just gonna say that I agree with both you and golfbooy about wanting quality character time between Daniel and other members of SG-1 (specifically, Sam and Teal'c, as they all have a long history together).

Spoiler:

And I also do not like to see the whole Daniel/Vala ship thing, and was rather annoyed at Daniel's "It wasn't a date!" thing (ok, so a flustering Daniel is kinda adorable, but that isn't the point). It shouldn't have been a date!
However, I really did like how Daniel reacted at the end when Vala pointed a gun at him. He was calm and soothing, trying to talk Vala into remembering him and not shooting, saying she was a good person, etc. Then, when she needed it, he gave her a big hug to let her know she wasn't alone. To me, that is not a Daniel/Vala relationship thing, but a Daniel/Vala friendship thing. He would do that, be there, for any of his friends who needed to be supported and comforted. Sure, the D/V shippers will read a lot into that moment, but I don't think there was anything sexual about it. Then again, that's just my opinion.

[Dani347]

I'm afraid I can't contribute to the MM discussion. I'm too busy sticking my fingers in my ears and going "He doesn't like her that way. He doesn't! He doesn't! Nyah nyah! I can't hear youuuuuuuu!" I'll just be over in the corner, rocking.

[Mickey23]

I'm afraid I can't contribute to the MM discussion. I'm too busy sticking my fingers in my ears and going "He doesn't like her that way. He doesn't! He doesn't! Nyah nyah! I can't hear youuuuuuuu!" I'll just be over in the corner, rocking.

Dani, go to your happy place!

[Dani347]

Dani, go to your happy place!

*trottles off to gaze in adoration as Daniel gives a long mythology laden briefing then follows him to a meeting with Chaka, conducted entirely in Unas*