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**nyxlily** · 24 August 2006, 12:52 PM

Ha, yes. Slash fics are -everywhere- in every fandom I've came across. I don't understand why people can't see the friendships for what it is: VERY close friends. Somehow, adding a romantic twist seem to make the relationship that much more important or concrete to slash fans. I, for one, found the friendship to be much more meaningful and substantial. But, it's a grip I've voiced again and again and I'm beginning to sound like a broken record! So I'll move on...

Now that I've had a few days to digest the cancellation news, I'm much more calm than when I first heard it. My desire to see Daniel on-screen is still there, but I'm not as desperate as I was that I'd want to see him on Atlantis full time. Like I said, I never cared for the show. So, I'm ready to move on along with the rest of the cast. lol, it took me a total of 3 days to get over the cancellation

I still would very much like an 11th season.. but I can also wait for the mini-series, tv-movie(s), and/or feature film. I have 10 years of Stargate to rewatch until that happens. That should take me around a couple of years to go over all the episodes.

**Dani347** · 25 August 2006, 02:45 AM

Okay, various replies, all mixed in. Just imagine your names and quotes at the appropriate places, because I'm too lazy to quote (how sad is that?)

First, I've always had a kind of starry eyed romantic vision of Daniel and Sha're, as her being his one true love. And, not that he's depressed forever, and broken. Just that he's had a great love, and he's not pining, he's just got other things on his mind that engage and interest and satisfy him. Of course, this view wars with the fact that I'm a Daniel/Janet shipper (probably only interesting to me that I can only ship Daniel with dead women). I don't know that Sha're wasn't his equal. I think he would think she was. He would probably have thought she was superior in some senses. I know she treated him like a normal man and it was one of the things that stood out, but I can imagine them admiring certain traits that they saw in each other, maybe that they felt they lacked. I also can't picture someone reacting the way Daniel did in Secrets or FiaD if he didn't love her. But, I also think Daniel has a wanderlust. I don't know if it has anything to do with not being content or happy. Think about it. After he descends, he says that he's finally found a place (I'm paraphrasing really badly) where he's meant to be. With his team and the SGC. But, Atlantis is found, and Daniel keeps pushing to go. I don't think Daniel wanting to go is an indication that he's not happy with his life or with the people he's with. If Daniel ever were to get married again I think it would only work with someone as searching as he is. Possibly a relationship like his parents had.

I don't see Daniel as gay at all. Have to disagree with MS that

Spoiler:

I also don't see anything between Jack and Daniel but good friends. Friendship just doesn't seem to be valued. Even in 200

Spoiler:

For me, I've always been drawn to good male friendships. And, I never slash any of them. I don't know why male friendships just do something to me, but there just seems to be so many layers and satisfying things to discover with them. I always hated the impression I got that the Jack and Daniel friendship was taking a backseat because, among other reasons, they were worried that it might give people the wrong idea. Well, first, I've always said fans don't actually need encouragement to ship or slash anyone (considering the number of crossover fic pairings who've never met in actual tv life). Second, why assume that everyone is automatically going to think that two people that have a close caring relationship have some kind of sexual tension behind it?

**Mickey23** · 25 August 2006, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Dani347

Spoiler:

Originally posted by nyxlily

Ha, yes. Slash fics are -everywhere- in every fandom I've came across. I don't understand why people can't see the friendships for what it is: VERY close friends. Somehow, adding a romantic twist seem to make the relationship that much more important or concrete to slash fans. I, for one, found the friendship to be much more meaningful and substantial. But, it's a grip I've voiced again and again and I'm beginning to sound like a broken record! So I'll move on...

Originally posted by Dani347

I also don't see anything between Jack and Daniel but good friends. Friendship just doesn't seem to be valued. Even in 200

Spoiler:

For me, I've always been drawn to good male friendships. And, I never slash any of them. I don't know why male friendships just do something to me, but there just seems to be so many layers and satisfying things to discover with them. I always hated the impression I got that the Jack and Daniel friendship was taking a backseat because, among other reasons, they were worried that it might give people the wrong idea. Well, first, I've always said fans don't actually need encouragement to ship or slash anyone (considering the number of crossover fic pairings who've never met in actual tv life). Second, why assume that everyone is automatically going to think that two people that have a close caring relationship have some kind of sexual tension behind it?

I just want to be clear. I am not a Jack/Daniel slasher/shipper. I just was pointing out that many people are or have mentioned it and MS was one of them. I agree, Dani347, I completely love the Jack/Daniel friendship. That is the thing that drew me into SG-1 in the first place, and kept me coming back. And yes, it is sad that the friendship between these two strong men took a backseat to the Jack/Sam crap (ah, I mean "love interest"), or that people seemed to assume that there was more to their friendship. J/D friendship fic is the kind of fanfiction I like to read most, anything dealing with Daniel and Jack and how they relate to each other.

Spoiler:

**nyxlily** · 25 August 2006, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Mickey23

I just want to be clear. I am not a Jack/Daniel slasher/shipper. I just was pointing out that many people are or have mentioned it and MS was one of them.

Oh, I didn't get the impression you were. I just like to rant about it whenever I see that topic brought up

Spoiler:

I love this thread. So many like-minded people here! I, too, can't wait to see it. From all the interviews I've read (and let me tell ya.. they are SO tight-lipped about this whole arc. I'm so excited that we still know so little about the plot. I take that as a good thing.. being an optimist!) RDA's role in that episode should be pretty substantial.

So, to stick with the friendship topic. Did anyone else see the increasing distance between Daniel and Jack in season 4 and 5? Or is it just me? Well, it can't be just me because I've seen the very same thing come up in various discussions in this (I think?) and other threads.

So what happened there? From the writers' point of view, they might had been trying to create more antagonism between the two, to have more conflicts. But what about from the story's pov? Did Jack's military mind and Daniel's ethical standards finally drive a wedge between them? Well, even with all that, Daniel still came to Jack during his final hour in Meridian.. and THAT will be one of my favorite Jack/Daniel moments ever.

I think the Sam/Jack thing had something to do with the diminished presence of the friendship, too. That's another reason why I hate their ship. Beside the horrible way the writers wrote it. It was also totally unnecessary. Darnit, why couldn't they have just stuck with the TEAM dynamic?

**Callista** · 25 August 2006, 12:14 PM

Yes, there was definitely increasing distance between them in S4 and S5. In fact, most of S5 to me is pretty dark and that's the main reason why. (Of course, it may actually be that I know what's coming at the end of S5 and it taints the rest of it for me.) It seems to me the real animosity starts with "The Other Side" and "Scorched Earth". And in both of those cases, I think it's coming from Jack. Daniel seems to still be acting like the same old Daniel he's always been (sticking up for what's right, asking questions, looking for out-of-the-box solutions). Jack just seems to fly off the handle faster. Those traits of Daniel's have always annoyed Jack, but starting in S4 Jack seems to have really developed a very short fuse. In Red Sky, Jack kind of ignores Daniel's input but in Beast of Burden, he gives Daniel a lot more respect and leeway. Jack is kind of mean to Daniel in Proving Ground, but no moreso than in the earlier seasons. (Daniel did shoot Jack with the shock-gun thing (intar?) after all....he kind of deserved it.) Other than the episodes I just mentioned, I don't really feel the animosity, it's more of a lack of the earlier friendship and good-natured ribbing.
Then you get to Menace. This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. It's really very similar to Scorched Earth in the tension between Jack and Daniel. Jack has a hard time believing non-human(oid)s are as valuable as human(oid)s with the possible exception of the Asgard and that guy in The Fifth Man. Daniel is open-minded enough to accept other forms of life (Reese, Urgo, the Unas, the Gadmeer) as being as valuable as humans. It seems like by this point Jack has "had enough" of always being disagreed with and questioned on so many points by Daniel. Maybe the whole shippy thing with Sam has him upset since he knows he can't follow through on that so he's quicker to take out his frustration on Daniel. I love the last scene of Menace because it all comes to a head with Daniel calling Jack a stupid son of a b*&^% and Jack standing up for his own side. It's one of those "neither one is right and they both know it but they can't bring themselves to admit it to eachother" situations. In Meridian it's interesting that Jack puts all his effort into saving Daniel's good name and wants to save his life, but the only thing he can say is "I might have grown to admire you, a little". That seems kind of callous to me. Daniel doesn't seem to think it's so great either. ("That's touching.") But in the end, he does go and plead his case to Jack. He could have gone to Teal'c since the Jaffa respect and strive for ascension, but he goes to the guy that he knows probably thinks ascension is a crock. Jack does something I think is a bit of a change for him when he doesn't really try to talk Daniel out of it. He doesn't ask him to stay. In Torment of Tantalus, Daniel wants to stay in the doomed building and says he thinks it's an acceptable risk. Jack says it isn't to him and hauls Daniel back through the gate. Something has changed in that time. Maybe if Jack has grown to admire Daniel, he has also grown to respect Daniel's decisions and dreams...even when they are contrary to his own. Or, maybe by then Jack is just too tired to fight anymore. I don't know. Daniel seems to have grown to respect himself less and thinks he can't accomplish anything in his physical form....maybe because Jack's always fighting him, too, and he always has to prove himself. Anyway, I didn't think this out really well before responding so I'm sure it's full of errors. Go ahead and correct me

Edited to take out some stuff that made no sense. (There's still more, but I'll just leave it in there.)

**nyxlily** · 25 August 2006, 12:36 PM

Oh, I loved Menace. But that episode glaringly displayed the distance between those two with the following lines:

DANIEL: I don't think she meant to hurt me. I just don't think she liked what I was saying.

O'NEILL: I don't like most of what you say. I try to resist the urge to shove you through a wall.

And then the look Daniel gave him after he said it.

It wasn't just witty sarcasm or any of Jack's normal one-liners. To me, he was serious. He showed no concern over Daniel's well being as some medic attended to his head wound. I still have problems with that scene. Where is the friendship?!

Then, once Daniel was gone, I think it hit Jack, finally, on what he just lost. Yes, there were still antagonism in 'Abyss', but in the end in the infirmary:

Jack: "How do you know?"

Daniel: "You're just gonna have to trust me."

Jack: "I can do that."

Jack can, and does, trust Daniel. I adore that episode not just for the ending, but the entire exchange between them.

In 'Full Circle' Jack continues to put his trust in him. I mean, giving the Eye to Anubis was -very- risky, but he did, on Daniel's urging. And Daniel taking action against Anubis; I think it has more to do with him protecting Abydos than imitating Jack. There were no other course of action left to him.

I just love the little hitch in Jack's voice when he said 'Daniel?' in Fallen. And, I think, that's when their friendship started back on track.

**Callista** · 25 August 2006, 01:03 PM

I totally forgot about the last scene in Abyss when I posted that. Shame, Shame, a thousand shames on me!!! (My kids wanted their lunch and my computer keeps flaking out on me so I went ahead and clicked post before re-reading. I know, no excuse. Shame, Shame!!)
You're right though, in Menace Jack is just really mean the whole time. I don't know why they had to write him that way. He still respected Daniel in Beast of Burden even though he didn't completely agree with him. He understood that that was just the way Daniel is and that's what makes Daniel a strong asset, even when he is sometimes a thorn in Jack's side. The commentaries say that the opening scene of Menace was shot on 9/11 (which is why Teal'c is lurking around in the back so much....CJ was apparently very upset). Maybe everyone was feeling down and morose during the shooting of the whole episode and lines that would have come off as funny at other times came off as mean-spirited instead. Also, the fact that Jack comes over and takes the battery out of Reese but doesn't check on Daniel (who appears to have a broken arm or wrist) and leaves Daniel just sitting there was pretty disturbing to me. No wonder Danny wanted to leave.

**nyxlily** · 25 August 2006, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Callista

I totally forgot about the last scene in Abyss when I posted that. Shame, Shame, a thousand shames on me!!! (My kids wanted their lunch and my computer keeps flaking out on me so I went ahead and clicked post before re-reading. I know, no excuse. Shame, Shame!!)

lol! It was just an observation I made. No need for all that. I've forgotten numerous things regarding episodes a lot of times myself. That's why, unfortunately, I couldn't be a help to Minty. And darn those kids! Distracting you from the Daniel discussions!

He understood that that was just the way Daniel is and that's what makes Daniel a strong asset, even when he is sometimes a thorn in Jack's side.

That upsets me, too. That apparently Jack HAD forgotten exactly why Daniel was an asset to the team.

The commentaries say that the opening scene of Menace was shot on 9/11 (which is why Teal'c is lurking around in the back so much....CJ was apparently very upset). Maybe everyone was feeling down and morose during the shooting of the whole episode and lines that would have come off as funny at other times came off as mean-spirited instead.

I knew about when the shooting took place, but I didn't take that into account of how everyone was acting. That very well could be why everyone was so.. down and snappy.

Also, the fact that Jack comes over and takes the battery out of Reese but doesn't check on Daniel (who appears to have a broken arm or wrist) and leaves Daniel just sitting there was pretty disturbing to me. No wonder Danny wanted to leave.

Yeah.. I would have liked Jack to check on Daniel.. but I guess if he did, then Daniel wouldn't have had that really passionate line against Jack. If he had snapped at Jack while Jack was showing concern over him, then Daniel would just come off as being unreasonable and mean himself.

I agree that that was one of the reasons why Daniel left his earthly existence. There's a VERY good fanfic floating around out there that described the deteriorating friendship wonderfully and took his ascension into account.. and I just spent the last 10 minutes searching for it! So here it is:

http://www.geocities.com/lorienwillow/unrequited.htm

It's pretty short and said pretty much everything we've just discussed for the last few posts. It's also very sad.

**Rachel500** · 27 August 2006, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by nyxlily

Ha, yes. Slash fics are -everywhere- in every fandom I've came across. I don't understand why people can't see the friendships for what it is: VERY close friends. Somehow, adding a romantic twist seem to make the relationship that much more important or concrete to slash fans. I, for one, found the friendship to be much more meaningful and substantial. But, it's a grip I've voiced again and again and I'm beginning to sound like a broken record! So I'll move on...
<snipped>.

Originally posted by Mickey23

Originally posted by Dani347

I also don't see anything between Jack and Daniel but good friends. Friendship just doesn't seem to be valued. Even in 200

Spoiler:

For me, I've always been drawn to good male friendships. And, I never slash any of them. I don't know why male friendships just do something to me, but there just seems to be so many layers and satisfying things to discover with them. I always hated the impression I got that the Jack and Daniel friendship was taking a backseat because, among other reasons, they were worried that it might give people the wrong idea. Well, first, I've always said fans don't actually need encouragement to ship or slash anyone (considering the number of crossover fic pairings who've never met in actual tv life). Second, why assume that everyone is automatically going to think that two people that have a close caring relationship have some kind of sexual tension behind it?

I just want to be clear. I am not a Jack/Daniel slasher/shipper. I just was pointing out that many people are or have mentioned it and MS was one of them. I agree, Dani347, I completely love the Jack/Daniel friendship. That is the thing that drew me into SG-1 in the first place, and kept me coming back.

It is an undenaible truth that a shipper will see ship wherever they want to. If you really want to read into the looks/touches/gestures between the characters you can - I know I do for the ships that I support.

I know a lot of people would prefer not to have romance shown on a scifi show; I personally go with the theory that its good to show character relationships because they facilitate character development. I had no problems with Cold Lazarus which explored to some extent what had happened with Jack and his wife, or with Bloodlines which explored Teal'c's relationship with his wife and son. Forever in a Day, I thought was a great Daniel episode which explored his grief for his wife.

I also think the ambiguity stuff with Daniel is in part because they don't have a gay character on Stargate and so they've used Daniel (who is a civilian and therefore doesn't have the military complication) more and more to suggest that he might be - although I go with the prevailing view that I don't think Daniel is. I wonder if they do come up with a 3rd incarnation of the Sg franchise if they finally manage to write in a gay character as a regular.

I also love the Jack/Daniel friendship. I think it was one of the strengths of the original team that these two very different men have this incredible friendship. Abyss is one of my all time favourite - would take to a desert island with me - episodes. I'm looking forward to The Shroud because I'm hoping...

Spoiler:

**Dani347** · 27 August 2006, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Rachel500

I also think the ambiguity stuff with Daniel is in part because they don't have a gay character on Stargate and so they've used Daniel (who is a civilian and therefore doesn't have the military complication) more and more to suggest that he might be - although I go with the prevailing view that I don't think Daniel is. I wonder if they do come up with a 3rd incarnation of the Sg franchise if they finally manage to write in a gay character as a regular.

For myself, I've never seen any ambiguity. Or them using Daniel to suggest anything to fill a quota. Daniel was married for a year, and it seems to me it was clearly implied that Daniel loved Sha're beyond her initially being a gift. He was in a relationship with Sarah Gardner. Daniel's first rebound feelings were for a woman, Kira. What fans see is what fans see, which is why there are J/D slashers and D/S shippers and D/V shippers and various other fandom ships and slashes. But, as far as the show, I haven't seen them write Daniel as having any kind of romantic or sexual attraction for any man. And, I don't see him not being shown to have some kind of feelings or shown having the hots for women as being an indication that they're hinting that he might have some for men. I always assumed the reason they aren't writing romance with Daniel was that they had other stories for him.

I still wonder if there's this belief that men have sex on the brain. So, if they don't constantly get all hot and bothered over women it means they're getting hot and bothered over men. I'm thinking of certain reactions I've seen to how Daniel reacted to Vala in an early episode (Origin? TPTB? Can't remember, but people will know when I describe the scene

Spoiler:

**Rachel500** · 27 August 2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Dani347

For myself, I've never seen any ambiguity. Or them using Daniel to suggest anything to fill a quota. Daniel was married for a year, and it seems to me it was clearly implied that Daniel loved Sha're beyond her initially being a gift. He was in a relationship with Sarah Gardner. Daniel's first rebound feelings were for a woman, Kira. What fans see is what fans see, which is why there are J/D slashers and D/S shippers and D/V shippers and various other fandom ships and slashes. But, as far as the show, I haven't seen them write Daniel as having any kind of romantic or sexual attraction for any man. And, I don't see him not being shown to have some kind of feelings or shown having the hots for women as being an indication that they're hinting that he might have some for men. I always assumed the reason they aren't writing romance with Daniel was that they had other stories for him.

I still wonder if there's this belief that men have sex on the brain. So, if they don't constantly get all hot and bothered over women it means they're getting hot and bothered over men. I'm thinking of certain reactions I've seen to how Daniel reacted to Vala in an early episode (Origin? TPTB? Can't remember, but people will know when I describe the scene

Spoiler:

I think they definitely played the 'Daniel might be gay' card in Moebius with the AT Daniel (the opening scene in the classroom with the suggestive remark from the handsome guy and then Jack's implied comment to Sam later when he tells her she's hot and she says she was interested in Daniel). I also didn't mean to imply that I think they have a quota to fill but really in this day and age not to have a gay character is a little unusual.

I agree that for me with our timeline Daniel I don't see anything in canon that would suggest he is gay except for the strange lack of any explicit female interaction of the romantic kind for a long while.

I also totally agree with you on the scene with Vala (I can't remember which one it was in either I think it might have been The Ties That Bind)

Spoiler:

.

**Dani347** · 27 August 2006, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Rachel500

I think they definitely played the 'Daniel might be gay' card in Moebius with the AT Daniel (the opening scene in the classroom with the suggestive remark from the handsome guy and then Jack's implied comment to Sam later when he tells her she's hot and she says she was interested in Daniel).

I thought it said more about Jack than it said about Daniel. Since Moebius Jack was a jerk, I wouldn't really consider what he said as any indication of what was true about Daniel. He wanted Sam, and didn't like the idea that Sam might be interested in Daniel. So, he was saying "off limits" I think he was also pushing some stereotype that because Daniel wasn't a big macho shoot em up guy, but an ew! Scholar! Those geek guys who would rather read books can't satisfy a woman like I can. (Like I said, I thought he was a jerk)And, as for the student, if we don't see that simply as someone who doesn't know the language making a mistake, that also says more about the student than Daniel. I don't think Daniel had a thing for the girl in Birthright even though she certainly had a crush on him.

**nyxlily** · 27 August 2006, 06:24 PM

I apologize for interrupting the above discussion to make this breaking news:

(Well, not really news, but I just want to bring it up!)

http://www.benbrowderportal.com/inde...arent=category

Beside the comments by cast and crew (PDL) on the cancellation, they show clips of them shooting scenes for

Spoiler:

Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion already in progress.

**Callista** · 27 August 2006, 06:29 PM

I saw that, nyxlily

Spoiler:

**Pitry** · 30 August 2006, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by nyxlily

So, to stick with the friendship topic. Did anyone else see the increasing distance between Daniel and Jack in season 4 and 5? Or is it just me? Well, it can't be just me because I've seen the very same thing come up in various discussions in this (I think?) and other threads.

Yay! So I'm not completely delusional. I felt that beginning season 4 they went more towards the co-workers than friends, and that it kept on going worse and worse til they got over it in Meridian - but I dunno, most people never seem to comment about it, so I was beginning to be afraid.

So what happened there? From the writers' point of view, they might had been trying to create more antagonism between the two, to have more conflicts. But what about from the story's pov? Did Jack's military mind and Daniel's ethical standards finally drive a wedge between them? Well, even with all that, Daniel still came to Jack during his final hour in Meridian.. and THAT will be one of my favorite Jack/Daniel moments ever.

Let's admit it - even in their best days, Jack and Daniel have had the tendency to get on each other's nerves. The way I've always seen it, they got to the point where they decided, each on his own, that apparently there isn't a lot of basis for the friendship there and that they're just co-workers. Funnily, I don't think that comes from Shades of Grey, but rather afterwards. They're both very stubborn and are uinlikely to give up, and they have very differnet views on things - and they were, quite literally, stuck together 24\7 or so.
I think Meridian opened their eyes to that despite everything, they still are very good friends and they still do care for each other. Jack realised that as annoying as he finds Daniel he still respects him and cares for him a lot, and Daniel realised that as annoying as he finds Jack, he still is the closest person to him and the one he trusts the most. I think Meridian is mainly about trust - because Daniel needed someone he knew he could trust to let go. As much as Sam or Teal'c care for him and as much as he loves them, I'm not sure he could trust they would let him go.

I think it goes well with what we've seen in seasons 7 & 8, too - after he came back, Daniel and Jack were still stubborn and still annoyed each other - but now they learned that no matter what they still care for each other and learned to work past that.

As for the gay issue, I've seen that comment on Moebius and 200 as a nod to the fans - TPTB resigned to "if you can't beat them, join them" and started making jokes about that. I don't think he actually is gay.

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