Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[Dani347]

Okay, to turn this into a conversation, what about Daniel reminds you of a werewolf? Something in his personality?

[Lilith]

ok.. well first off, i'm talking about your generic, sprout fur, fangs, and claws, holw at the moon, and go kill something werewolf that has become the hollywood stereo-type.... i'm refering to the ancient celtic mythos... basically a wolf is one of good nature who holds others above him/her self... they are majestic and graceful in every way... they have high family values and morals, and when that family is in danger, they will act, no matter the consequence...

good natured: check
cares about others: check
majestic: check
graceful: most of the time
will do anything for family: when has Daniel ever neglected SG1 or the SGC while he had possession of all his facutlies?
will act no matter consequence: He did everything within his power to save Abydos, even though he knew he was breaking the rules

now, for the transformation... that part's actually folklore... something to do with Druid who loved wolves, used his magic to try to join them... yadda, yadda, yadda... it's pure imagination... i'm a very imaginative person.... symbolically, a wolf ussually represents chivalry, honour, and all that good stuff.... if Daniel was to pegged as an animal, it would be a wolf.... where as Jack would be a coyote... quick, cunning, sly, great at deception, yet just as honourable....

[Dani347]

Ah, okay. Those characteristics do sound Daniel-like. Although, I don't think majestic would immediately come to mind -I mean for me- when thinking of him.

Daniel as an animal? That's tough. If I were to compare Daniel to an animal it would have to be one that's incredibly loyal, immensely curious, very stubborn, and has a streak of independence and wanderlust.

[Lilith]

which are also qualities of a wolf.... a wolf is the most loyal canine species on earth... they are always curious but approach things cautiously... can be exetremely stubborn at times.... and alpha-wolves are always wandering off on their own and only heed pack leaders, but not without getting their two-bits in (another Daniel-behavior thing)

[Dani347]

Daniel certainly gets his two bits in. Even if he has to speak at top speed to do it

[Lilith]

well, he is an alpha... it's against his nature to be supressed in any form or manner, plus, he's lived most of his adult life on his own.... he is completely self-serveant, which is why he pisses the goa'uld off so much

[Katerine]

Daniel's an alpha?

I've always understood "Alpha" to mean "leader." Somebody who needs to lead, who needs to come first in everything, who sees just about everything as a competition. Somebody who comes first in the pecking order. Someone who feels the responsibility for protecting the others in the pack.

Jack, for example, is the perfect example of an alpha. Daniel's always struck me as too willing to listen, too stubborn in terms of setting his own rules, and too open-minded to fit into the alpha stereotype. Not to mention, he never seems to expect anybody to follow him. His mindset seems to be more along the lines of "You do what you want, and I'll do what I want."

For that reason, I've always seen Daniel as more of a gamma. Not "gamma" in terms of "last in the pecking order" (that's just how alphas and betas see gammas, because they're incapable of seeing the way gammas do ), but "gamma" in terms of "somebody who refuses to take part in the pecking order at all, because wasting time with the pecking order is stupid." Somebody who marches to the beat of his own drum. Somebody who refuses to compete, either for first place (like alphas) or for favor with those in first place (like betas). Somebody who does precisely what he thinks he should do, and doesn't particularly care if he suffers for it.

Somebody who simply doesn't care about status.

Re: angering the Goa'uld by being independent - I don't really see this. I see Daniel angering the Goa'uld on purpose, by purposely doing the exact opposite of what they want ("bow before me and worship me"), because a) when they're angry, they become even more stupid than usual, and b) he really hates the Goa'uld, and enjoys seeing them in fits of apoplexy.

Re: "werewolf" - before you mentioned the classic sense of the wolf (which, incidentally, would have made a lot more sense if you'd started with something like "what animal would you see Daniel as?" instead of just launching into "I see Daniel as a werewolf," btw ), I thought you'd meant that you saw him as a werewolf because he was so much like both Oz (BtVS) and Remus Lupin (HP). Patient, understanding, compassionate, etc.

[Lilith]

given the chance to lead upon his own deriliction, Daniel can quickly step up to the mantle (i.e. the movie, he practically started and lead the entire rebellion against Rea), but like all alphas, he understands when it's the time to lead, and when it's the time to submit.... if you look at SG1 as a pack, Jack is alpha and pack leader, but if Daniel wanted to challenge him, he could. the only reason he doesn't is because Jack is older and wiser... then only reason why doesn't challenge Carter, is becasue Jack chose her to lead the pack in his absence and Daniel respects that....

now if you look at rank, even though Daniel's a civ, his title is equavalent to Jack's rank, and by the time Jack gets promoted, Daniel has enough experience and has gained enough wisdom to lead SG1 instead of Carter, plus his unque veiw on things, life in general, differ so much from the inbred military thinking that Carter is partial to... he sees thing differently, like Jack, which in the end makes him a better leader than Carter.... Carter, herself, is actually a Beta who aspires to be an Alpha....

RE: RE: "werewolf" - i see what your saying... sorry bout the ambiguity, sometimes i forget that not everyone love mythology and the supernatural as much as i do.... but i see what you mean about Lupin, the are some similariteis in character.....dunno bout Oz though, don't watch BtVS

[Dana_Jeanne]

Do you think Daniel has the potential to be "dark"? And what exactly is "dark" to you? "you" being the generic you, not the last poster specifically .

Dana Jeanne

[Dani347]

Real Daniel (meaning not in a dream or under alien influence) was dark to me in Serpent's Song. I know some people cite Bloodlines and the killing of the infant goa'ulds, but to me, Serpent's Song was the most compelling. Not only threatening to kill Apophis, but also taunting him. And, to me, not in the usual "lets play bait the goa'uld" but cold deliberate taunting, when he told Apophis how he delivered Sha're's baby. Daniel didn't give a moment's thought to the host at that point. I also think before he considered the fact that there was a host inside, Daniel would have enjoyed seeing Apophis die. The human form. Or, at least I think he thought he would. That's another aspect of being dark. Daniel's killed when he's had to, which I don't see as dark. In combat or defending himself or others, that's just necessary. But, when it becomes personal, when he wants someone to die, that's dark. I also think those feelings are why he was initially so flustered when the host emerged. Because he had only been thinking of this being he hated, never thought of the poor guy who was a victim like Sha're. It was a very compelling episode to see Daniel so cold, and then later show his compassion for the host come through so strongly. So, based on evidence, yes, I think Daniel has the potential to be dark. But, like that episode, I don't think being dark means that it has to encompass the whole of who Daniel is.

[Katerine]

Really good question. I think you're right that, at the time of "Serpent's Song," Daniel had the potential to be dark. For much the same reasons you mentioned - the fact that he was so capable of hatred.

It was addressed in Maternal Instinct, though. When they discussed his hatred for the Goa'uld. And Daniel's changed a lot since then.

I think he had the potential to be dark. I don't think he does anymore. He hasn't ever since Absolute Power. I think being confronted with his dark side ensured that it would never happen for real.

And if nothing else, we're learning from Season 9 just how far Daniel has come, how well he understands what it is to be good, and how nobody can just take "being good" for granted.

[Dani347]

I'm not sure I like the idea of Daniel completely conquering those impulses. I've always been disappointed that his confrontations with Anubis didn't seem to have anything personal about them. It was just like this was another gou'ald to him, instead of someone who destroyed the planet where he spent a year with Sha're.

I like to watch characters overcome their less than noble human impulses, I don't like when they don't have any to overcome. I'd rather have seen him having to apply what he learned from Shifu to Anubis, instead of Maternal Instinct being it.

Or, maybe he's completely overcome any temptation regarding the goa'uld, but I think there's potential for other temptation. Just because he's human. I think all human's have the potential to be dark -make the wrong choices, have the wrong urges, about important things- and it doesn't go away. But, what makes them admirable is when they do the right thing in spite of.

eta: I also think that Absolute Power was first of all dark side to the extreme, sort of like Mr. Hyde separating completely from Dr. Jekyll (that's a good summary of what I mean. We all have a bit of Mr. Hyde, and we can suppress him, but he doesn't go away completely). Also, I still think Absolute Power was about what the knowledge of the goa'uld would do to anyone, and Daniel learned that he couldn't defeat them by that method. Because it was too dangerous an option for anyone.

[Lilith]

Do you think Daniel has the potential to be "dark"? And what exactly is "dark" to you? "you" being the generic you, not the last poster specifically .

Dana Jeanne

i'm a zen sadist [(and yes i know that's an oximoron... i'm full of them)] and for the most part, i think like Daniel.... there are so many parallels between my life and his....i'm usually calm and collective, think about the little people... yadda, yadda, yadda... but if there's someone who i absolutely spite or who completely annoys me, i just wanna {grr!!}.... and given how much like Daniel i am, i find it very easy to believe that he is capable of some really dark ****.... the best example, as already cited, is Daniel's confrontation with Apophis.... but he has really good self control, which is the only thing that's saved his soul.... if he were to loose that, he'd be one of the most dangerous persons in the universe

[Dana_Jeanne]

I guess I'm having trouble defining 'dark'. To me it always meant 'the bad guy.' Which Daniel is not. But looking at "Serpent's Song" I can see what you mean, Dani. That darkness I think Daniel's always had in him; what makes him such a good character is the fact that he generally overcomes that darkness. I think. Hm. Not sure what I mean.

Deej

[Dani347]

Well,I do think we all have some darkness inside of us. Most of us aren't confronted with the kinds of situations that could bring it out the way SG1 is. But, I think that in my view, becoming darker doesn't have to mean succumbing to that part of yourself -becoming bad- but it could mean upping the ante, being in situations that haven't been conquered, having to struggle a bit more, maybe even fall, but not irredeemably. I'm not sure where the line is at, where I could say Daniel could fall and still be redeemable, but I'm sure there is one.

Also, I believe that when Joe answered a question here about Daniel being darker, he said that he felt that Daniel had currently become darker. I don't know if I agree, but since I don't see Daniel as being bad now, or that there's been any attempt to make him bad, if this is what they mean by dark, I don't believe they mean to turn Daniel "bad."