Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[parsifal]

i have a question for atlantis fans -

Spoiler:

did weir have just a 'supporting' role too, being the commander of the base?

Spoiler:

Far too often that's what she was reduced to in an episode, but I definitely don't think that was the original intent. Given that the show will now apparently be more focused on the team (), the commander may have a more strictly supporting role. Though I'd still think Sam would be more involved than Hammond was.

"...when she had a relationship with Pete and her first functioning adult relationship."

Pretty generous definition of "functioning adult relationship".

[rderoch]

Nope. That's not how contracts work.

suse

But she's specifically said that she "owed them a year". So doesn't that mean she's contractually obligated to do the role they request of her?

[Skydiver]

my understanding

AT signed for s10 AND a11 OR s4.

they optioned her, they basically called dibs on her time and said 'ok hon, we don't know if we'll get a s11 or a s4 but if we do, we got rights of first refusal so you can't commit yourself to anything else until we say that you're free.'

then they exercised that optin, kept their dibs on her time and sam moves to atlantis

[Mandysg1]

Wow what great indepth discussions we've had in the last few pages. I don't know where to begin Okay how about yea Corin does have a very nice ah...back

Astro what a great post! Very thought provoking as were many others (too numerous to quote)

On the formulaic conversation, yes SG1 did start out that way, but I do think it surpassed that formula with Sam's character. I'm watching Sigularity and in this one, its Sam who is proven right and even disobeys the Lead Male Hero. Sam was given the chance to grow as a character and not just be the expostion girl. I think this may have had something to do with some of TPTB that were with the show that have now left, RDA and Gekko especially. We did see glimpses of Sam leading, albeit when O'Neill wasn't heavily featured in the show (due to RDA's schedule). I think S6 we really got to see more of Sam's leadership abilities. In S7 we seemed to get a lot of Sam whump, but instead of waiting to be rescued, we saw Sam trying to rescue herself and in Grace she even rescued the entire crew of the Prommie. And in Death Knell we got to see Action Sam, trying to out run the SS and using her wits to bring him down. Heck even Selmak said the rocket should have killed the SS, but for some reason it didn't....I guess that's where Jack (LMH) comes in, but he really didn't do much in terms of the episode, his role was more of support in that episode (well to me anyway)

Cue S8, with RDA cutting his time even more, they had the chance to show Sam in a leadership position of SG1, but failed miserably. IMO they had too many on base episodes just so we could see Jack. They should have gotten us used to not seeing as much instead and I felt the season suffered because of it, writing and character wise if not rating wise.

Then came S9, all those fans (IMO) that had gone through the last 8 years of SG1 probably had expectations for the show, using their vast history, it was logical to see Sam be in charge of SG1 since she was in S8. But NOOOO this is where the SEXISM came in (which is even sadder that they don't realize it is sexism Many viewers may have wanted (don't want to put everyone in the same category) to see SG1 continue on with some type of realism they used from S1-8, but what they got was so off the wall and unbelievable 30% of the audience left.

I only hope TPTB learn from thier mistakes of the past and don't repeat it in S4 of Atlantis. If they want the franchise (SG1 movies) to continue then they have to do something to fix the blunders they have already made.

Oooh boy this was a long winded post, sorry

[astrogeologist]

Some very interesting and thought provoking posts. My take on the formula thing...

Spoiler:

Post 68126

I believe it's true that SG1 was built around a formula which at its basic is; Lead Action Hero (slightly rebellious, good-looking guy), Civilian Geeky Beta Male (provide conflict and buddy/buddy relationship of opposites with LAH), Intelligent Warrior Female (provide UST with LAH, eye candy and female buddy who keeps the peace), Warrior Alien with Code of Honour (provide LAH with warrior buddy relationship) and Wise Leader (provide supportive if occasionally exasperated senior mentor/friend to LAH) sat alongside a secondary formula of Military + Social Scientist/Linguist + Scientist + Alien. (EDIT: And I agree with ROX, the formula is itself inherently sexist).

For me, having been brought up with The A Team, Knight Rider and Airwolf, all of which was very formularic and where the woman was mainly there for the female in peril stuff, I was pretty used to the formula and not at all bothered by it. What I loved about early Stargate was that although there was a clear formula, the stories were normally written in a way that gave all the characters depth beyond their individual function within the show. So, while, Sam was primarily there as 'the girl' within the formula, her character was portrayed as so much more than that which is one of the reasons why so many hold her up as a great role model for women.

Early Stargate allowed for the characters to have scenes and moments that not only showed their relationship as a team building but for them as characters to grow - even if the consequences of events were missing week on week in most cases. I would agree with the statement that Sam was shown leading through her choices and her actions way before she was officially designated as SG1 leader.

I think the issues began when RDA began to want to spend less and less time on the show which always gave them the headache of how to write around the absence of their LAH. In S8, this came to a head when they attempted to shuffle the formula but in actuality ended up exactly where they were before but with Jack playing both LAH and Wise Leader.

For whatever reason, TPTB seemed unable to break out of the formula, and for me part of this has been down to their lack of imagination in realising Sam's LAH potential because they had become used to the secondary formula and using Sam as exposition character for the science stuff in the stories S1-S7, and they couldn't seem to get their heads around how to do this without Sam being the one to do it. Same in S9 and S10. Spoilers for S10,

Spoiler:

It's telling in Company of Thieves that rather than showing Sam commanding the Odyssey crew after the death of Emerson, she's shown instead fixing the ship; that in Bad Guys that Sam not being around to fix the gate, presents them with a definite gap and that Vala steps up to do it in Sam's absence; that even in Uninvited when she is in command of the SGC, she's still shown working out the problem of the cloak.

I think RCC's comments allude to that - they couldn't envisage Sam being in command when they still needed a character to do the 'science/MacGyver' stuff as part of the team. Blindspot, unintentional/intentional sexism of not seeing how a female character could fulfill the role of LAH, a subconscious desire to stick with a working formula, simply a lack of imagination (because let's face it they could have come up with a new character to fulfill the position of science geek or brought back Jonas - any number of solutions) or network/budget pressures? Up to the individual fan which way they want to interpret it as, I guess. For me there was definitely sexism, whether intentional or not, in assuming that BB's character had to lead SG1 in order to be the LAH and so Sam as a character lost the SG1 leadership regardless of whatever co-command/temporary assignment assumptions are made in the stories thereafter. And what rankled further was never seeing this addressed on screen properly.

I do think they attempted to shake up the formula in SGA initially; so they did have: Lead Action Hero (Sheppard), Wise Civilian Female Leader (Weir who was meant to have more of a substantial role than Hammond and have a conflict with Sheppard), Civilian Geeky Beta Male (McKay), Intelligent Warrior Alien Female with Code of Honour (Teyla), Young Ethnic Warrior Male (Ford).

I think one of the problems with Atlantis is that I don't think they found it easy to write for the changed formula and they've slowly but surely slid back to into the old one. So, now in SGA S4 we'll have, Lead Action Hero (Sheppard), Civilian Geeky Beta Male (McKay), Intelligent Warrior Female (Teyla), Warrior Alien with Code of Honour (Ronan) and Wise Leader (Sam).

They've gone back to the formula they know and love best. The good news about that is that they might actually start to write stories that once again transcend the formula as happened in early SG1 so the show becomes more than the sum of its parts and the characters become more than simply LAH or in Sam's case Wise Leader.

I have to agree.

Spoiler:

Post 68133

Recently, I sat down with my sister and father and watched The Divinci Code. Both had read the book and enjoyed it very much, but as we watched the movie they got this strange look upon their faces and when it ended, they looked at one another and said 'WTF was that? That's not how the female character was written in the book.' As someone who had not read the book, I found the movie to be ok, nothing spectacular, but definitely watchable; but for both of them, they said the female character in the movie was portrayed differently than the one in the book. According to them, the man had suddenly become the hero of the story, the person who had all the answers and the girl was little more than someone to be saved.

Which to me is the biggest issue I have with television and the entertainment industry in general. I actually prefer reading a story rather than watching a movie, because I can enjoy the exploits of a female heroine without having the entertainment industry's theory that having a hero is more interesting and profitable than having a heroine. Which seems to be the reason why the industry has a real issue in placing a female characters in the lead role of a television series or movie. And yet, I often wonder if that's not the fault of the female viewer in some part.

While a male viewer seems to enjoy watching females -- whether it be for the eye candy or not, more often than not they tend to identify with a male hero rather than a heroine. While a female viewer, on the other hand, may also enjoy watching the male hero for the eye candy, she is much more likely to belittle the heroine of a story as well. We have a tendancy to judge a female character much more strongly than we would a male character. Perhaps it's because we tend to be much more judgemental towards one another in real life as well. Women in general tend to view other women on even playing field. We see one another as equals and often when a female excels at something or breaks up that equality, she is suddenly viewed as a b*tch or slut -- someone who obviously sleeped her way into her current position. Many women just can't seem to view a female character with the same openness as they do a male character, perhaps because society has brainwashed them into believing that a man is suppose to be the hero or the executive and the female is suppose to be his pretty side kick or secretary.

Which is the reason I believe so many females fans have issues with Sam, because there is a huge double standard in what is considered acceptable behavior for Sam and what is considered acceptable behavior from the guys. If one of guys blows up in someone's face or acts rudely, they are just doing their job or having a bad day; however, if Sam behaves in the exact same way, she is considered overly emotional or b*tchy. If one of the guys make a mistake it is viewed as simple human error, whereas if Sam made the exact same mistake they would be screaming for her to be court martialed.

I believe female viewers tend to be more a part of the problem than a part of the solution, because a great deal of them are more than happy to support a female character as long as said character doesn't upstage their favorite male character/actor or make said character/actor look badly.

Just as I believe many of the Atlantis fans who are supporting Sam right now, may one day viciously turn against her if she suddenly took the spotlight away from Sheppard or McKay. I'm not trying to suggest that all fans would react this way, but I suspect a great deal of female fans would be in a uproar, even more so than the Weir fans, if it were one of the male leads positions that was suddenly in jeopardy.

I've used this example before. let's play pretend. SAm Carter. Lt colonel of the flag ship team.

Spoiler:

Post 68130

Sorry, I gotta disagree - not about the using a formula, that's true. The sexism is there and it is inherent within the formula and is just another lousy excuse to continue said sexisim.

White (Action Hero) Male Must Lead is a basic part of the formula and it is sexist.

I've used this example before. let's play pretend. SAm Carter. Lt colonel of the flag ship team. A black man with 9 years of experience moves off and then comes back and discovers that his command has been given to a white male with zero gate experience and Sam is expected to just deal with it.

who would be crying racism??? who would be crying that the better qualified male was set aside for the less qualified male???

It'd be so obvious that it'd likely get national press. But when the EXACT SAME THING is done but instead of black/white it's male/female then it's ok and accepted.

I don't think that the writers set otu maliciously to malign the character, but what i think is even worse is that they didn't even realize what they'd done. subordinant female is such a hard wired part of thier psyche that they didn't even realize what they wree doing.

and i think that's worse than any deliberate act. cause if they don't see hte problem, they'll never realize how much they're contributing to it and it'll never be fixed

I could live with it under RDA. At least it reflected the sexism inherent in the Air Force and patrilineal societies.

Spoiler:

Post 68128

Ironically, in the last two years, TPTB would have been more successful without the almighty formula.

I do agree with a lot of this. Much of it is habitual, unconcious sexism.

Spoiler:

Post 68134

Joss Whedon (creator of Buffy and Firefly) has been asked why he always seemed to need to create 'strong female characters'. His habitual reply? "Because you keep asking that question."

Wow! Such wonderfully thoughtful posts.


(my comments are in my next post, as I hit the 12000 character limit with just the quoted posts above)

[astrogeologist]

Rachel - wow, such a great post! I love reading your episode reviews for the same astute thoughtfulness. And Sky and Dancer - dead spot on, as always. And AgentDark, great posts too - I agree about the formula, I'd just take it a bit further.

ForeverSG-1 brought out something that has become apparent over the years - that women are so critical of other women - and female heroes. That women will accept a male superhero much more easily than they will accept a female one (and that women will verbally tear down the female hero). I think that the guys will accept the female superhero, if she's written and presented well, without much problem - that the guys will accept the male and female superheros fairly equally. Women however, seem to be much more readily accepting of the male superhero (perhaps because it's an accepted part of our culture?), whereas they will attack the female superhero as unbelievable.

To one and all, thanks for such considered and thoughtful words on an emotionally-charged and difficult topic.

[parsifal]

Photo of Amanda in the Arctic.

[Uber]

Photo of Amanda in the Arctic.

Wow...fantastic pic, parsifal!!!

[resurgamlaura]

Rachel - wow, such a great post! I love reading your episode reviews for the same astute thoughtfulness. And Sky and Dancer - dead spot on, as always. And AgentDark, great posts too - I agree about the formula, I'd just take it a bit further.

ForeverSG-1 brought out something that has become apparent over the years - that women are so critical of other women - and female heroes. That women will accept a male superhero much more easily than they will accept a female one (and that women will verbally tear down the female hero). I think that the guys will accept the female superhero, if she's written and presented well, without much problem - that the guys will accept the male and female superheros fairly equally. Women however, seem to be much more readily accepting of the male superhero (perhaps because it's an accepted part of our culture?), whereas they will attack the female superhero as unbelievable.

To one and all, thanks for such considered and thoughtful words on an emotionally-charged and difficult topic.

Female fans laying into female characters has long been something that makes me angry, and I strongly suspect that it's more to do with insecurities on the part of the individual than the actual character (or even actress) themselves. And the superhero analogy is quite a good one- in part the sexualisation can be off-putting, but also the idea of strong females leading double lives doesn't seem to strike a chord the way you'd expect. Although, comics like 'X-Men' (despite the inherent sexism in the title!) were full of strong, emotionally-developed females and the comics, animations and movies have a large female fan-base.
It's strange how all those who complain about Sam being 'perfect' seem to realise that it may be because she's been in environments where it was expected of her since she was born- and that these expectations, heightened by emotional experiences and further expectations that have emerged because of her natural mental capabilities, have led her to strive for it. She's always trying to excel for other people-whether it be for her team, her family, partner, even the galaxy- and every time she gets it right, it only piles on the expectations both in others and in herself for next time. And if you don't know at least one women who has experienced that kind of existence (probably minus the mortal peril and aliens ), I'd be very surprised.

[resurgamlaura]

Photo of Amanda in the Arctic.

God, that looks cold. I know it's stating the obvious, but it really does...

[Mandysg1]

Female fans laying into female characters has long been something that makes me angry, and I strongly suspect that it's more to do with insecurities on the part of the individual than the actual character (or even actress) themselves. And the superhero analogy is quite a good one- in part the sexualisation can be off-putting, but also the idea of strong females leading double lives doesn't seem to strike a chord the way you'd expect. Although, comics like 'X-Men' (despite the inherent sexism in the title!) were full of strong, emotionally-developed females and the comics, animations and movies have a large female fan-base.
It's strange how all those who complain about Sam being 'perfect' seem to realise that it may be because she's been in environments where it was expected of her since she was born- and that these expectations, heightened by emotional experiences and further expectations that have emerged because of her natural mental capabilities, have led her to strive for it. She's always trying to excel for other people-whether it be for her team, her family, partner, even the galaxy- and every time she gets it right, it only piles on the expectations both in others and in herself for next time. And if you don't know at least one women who has experienced that kind of existence (probably minus the mortal peril and aliens ), I'd be very surprised.

Some of my favourite movies have had strong female characters. I think Alien (and the sequels) showed one of the strongest characters of all time, male or female. Ripley I thought was ground breaking, it was a very sucessful movie with a female action hero lead Yay Ripley! Others who know me, also know I love Silence of the Lambs, Jodie Foster's character is played both strong and vulnerable and doesn't rely on some male hero rescuing her. There are movies that show these strong female characters and are sucessful, there just needs to be more so we as a society will get used to women being the STAR of movies and not just romantic comedies.

[petemoretti]

Photo of Amanda in the Arctic.

where's it from ?
Is that man in white RDA?

[wibbling]

Photo of Amanda in the Arctic.

great pic! Looks pretty 'parky' out there (to use a British expression that Amanda is probably familiar with!). Am hoping Amanda's going to post some of her pix on her site soon.

[Uber]

where's it from ?

It's from the shooting up at the Arctic for the movie "Stargate: The Continuum."

Is that man in white RDA?

Yup..and of course Ben is to Amanda's left.

I'm trying to figure out who's standing behind them though. I'm thinking the one with the goggles is our man Martin Wood but am not sure of that...and I can't tell who's standing next to him and behind Rick.

Amanda looks great doesn't she? I'll bet she had a blast.

[parsifal]

I'm trying to figure out who's standing behind them though. I'm thinking the one with the goggles is our man Martin Wood but am not sure of that...and I can't tell who's standing next to him and behind Rick.

standing, l-r: N. John Smith and Martin Wood