Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[the dancer of spaz]

AD's right *gulp*

Never thought I'd say that.

But yeah, AD is right about the formula. I can appreciate the formula. In fact, I think it's quite necessary.

However, as ShimmeringStar and astro said,

Spoiler:

the way in which they've gone about the formula - the storytelling - is innately flawed.

And though I love the Jack O'Neill character, I do think that TPTB's obsession with utilizing RDA's schedule to the nth degree in S8 hindered their ability to write an episode that featured Carter actually lead. Beyond Carter, they didn't even seem able to write Daniel, Teal'c and Sam as a cohesive group. This might have been a SciFi or MGM directive, but whatever it was, it kept the Carter character from proving her abilities to those who might not have been inclined to see them in the first place.

It also gave the impression that Jack really was the only glue that held the three of them together, which then justified the demand for a new, Jack-lite character. The (false) theory that Daniel/Teal'c/Sam were nothing without Jack was only further proven over the next two years when we rarely saw the three of them interact on a regular basis, if ever.

I guess we know now that they simply had a hard time sustaining the hewo! and the experienced Big Three, as well as the five-man team in S10. Sheesh, what a mess that was.

Back to Sam and command, even people who do recognize Sam's abilities - people like me - were left scratching their heads or simply inferring what Carter is capable of in a leadership position.

In S8, she was held back so we could see Jack in action. In S9, she was held back so we could see Cameron in action. And in S10, after an evidently collossal mistake in oh so many ways, everyone in authority - from Carter to Mitchell to Landry - was held in an embarrassing state of limbo. If they plan on holding her back for the sake of John and Rodney, I don't quite see the point.

So yeah, I'm with Deb - why the heck are they suddenly acting like they missed the boat with Carter's abilities? Why are they acting like they didn't see this coming years ago? Is this all an act to save face, or are they truly unaware of what they've done to the character?

I don't know which is worse.

ETA: And whoot about the happy news!

Spoiler:

I'm so glad Carson's coming back for a few episodes in the back half of S4. That's awesome! Now all we need is some Weir action, and we're good to go.

[majorsal]

Spoiler:

I really don't think that it has anything to do with sexism or putting a female in lead or any of that. Don't look at it from realistic views (ie what would happen if the Stargate was real etc), but from a story telling pov. Stargate is formulaic by nature. Very formulaic. Part of that formula involves characters with clearly defined roles: The Intrepid Leader, the Compassionate People-Person, the Brilliant Scientist and the Brave Warrior. Sam fills the Brilliant Scientist role, just like McKay fills the role on Atlantis. She can't do both from a story telling pov, because the stories call for seperate characters to fill each role. O'Neill certainly filled the Intrepid Leader role and while you can debate the actual 'Leader' part, Mitchell certainly has the 'Intrepid' aspect. That's basically what I believe RCC was talking about - they've haven't been able to have Sam in a command position without breaking the formula, since the formula calls for her to fill the scientist role.
Atlantis gives them that though. Sheppard (Intrepid Leader), Teyla (Compassionate People-Person), McKay (Brilliant Scientist) and Ronon (Brave Warrior) have all the roles covered which frees up Sam to do something different, namely command.

see, i'm so crappin' confused that if someone's post is negative i'm there, or postive and i feel it.

i also think that it's not once bitten/twice shy, it's 50 times bitten/gullible or not to stick your hand in the hole again.

i want to believe!





sally

[suse]

Spoiler:

Actually, I think the main reason is because of her contract. If they didn't put her into Atlantis, they would have to break the contract and if she didn't accept the part, she would have to break it. It was probably a lot less hassle to fit her into the cast.

I still haven't heard why Weir's role is being changed, but as I understand it, her role was going to be reduced anyway.

Nope. That's not how contracts work.

suse

[L.A. Doyle]

ETA: And whoot about the happy news!

Spoiler:

I'm so glad Carson's coming back for a few episodes in the back half of S4. That's awesome! Now all we need is some Weir action, and we're good to go.

Say what?!?!

Spoiler:

*happy dance*

[suse]

I agree with MajorSal. I feel both ways also. I agree with AD about the show being formulaic. Fine. However they had a chance to change that. Mix things up a bit and make the show a true emsemble. While I'm a bit more forgiving re:RDA and his place on the show (no offence inteded Astro) for the most part Astro said most eloquently what I feel about Sam and command - or lack thereof. Ans ShimmeringStar - yes, I agree it is sexism. You could have knocked me over when Coop sais command 'eluded' Sam. Er, she was in command, you just chose to cram Rick into as much of S9 as possible. A Hammondish + amount would have help the flow immeasurably. And made the show a bit smoother in transition to S9. I also agree with Spaz. I find it odd that the girl is the only who has had command 'elude' her yes AD I still recognize your point. Oy. So embarrassing.


suse

[Agent_Dark]

AD's right *gulp*

Never thought I'd say that.

You know it makes sense

[the dancer of spaz]

You know it makes sense

*bows down at the wise and all-knowing l33t-man's feet*

Yessss, master. I understand your waysss.

But seriously yeah, the formula was necessary. But remember what I said the other night? Cameron Mitchell could've been the geek. And I'm so not kidding. Hear me out.

When you look at Ben Browder, you think - or I do anyway - hottie! And it might not be the same way one would look at Michael Shanks or David Hewlett, because Browder is the obvious pick for Action!Man and Shanks and Hewlett are hot in other ways (of course, thanks to Shanks' physique change a few years back, it's not as obvious). Nevertheless, it would've been cool to see Ben play a geeky Major Cameron Mitchell - and not in the spoofy way it was done in Moebius, either. It would've been different, unexpected, and we would've achieved the necessary formula.

OK, so no one at the network or MGM would've gone for it. But I still think it would've been unique.

[antoa]

I agree with MajorSal. I feel both ways also. I agree with AD about the show being formulaic. Fine. However they had a chance to change that. Mix things up a bit and make the show a true emsemble.

But the thing is, Hollywood would never take the chance and break up a 'proven formula' and 'mix things up a bit'. The network would never allow something so original.

Maybe I am cynical thanks to a wonderful movie I just saw about the BS that is the 'Hollywood Machine' (called 'The TV Set' starring David Duchovny - highly recommended), but I am starting to bypass the writers and even the producers (though they still get a little bit) and putting the blame on the Network Suits.

[RealmOfX]

Spoiler:

I really don't think that it has anything to do with sexism or putting a female in lead or any of that. Don't look at it from realistic views (ie what would happen if the Stargate was real etc), but from a story telling pov. Stargate is formulaic by nature. Very formulaic. Part of that formula involves characters with clearly defined roles: The Intrepid Leader, the Compassionate People-Person, the Brilliant Scientist and the Brave Warrior. Sam fills the Brilliant Scientist role, just like McKay fills the role on Atlantis. She can't do both from a story telling pov, because the stories call for seperate characters to fill each role. O'Neill certainly filled the Intrepid Leader role and while you can debate the actual 'Leader' part, Mitchell certainly has the 'Intrepid' aspect. That's basically what I believe RCC was talking about - they've haven't been able to have Sam in a command position without breaking the formula, since the formula calls for her to fill the scientist role.
Atlantis gives them that though. Sheppard (Intrepid Leader), Teyla (Compassionate People-Person), McKay (Brilliant Scientist) and Ronon (Brave Warrior) have all the roles covered which frees up Sam to do something different, namely command.

Sorry, I gotta disagree - not about the using a formula, that's true. The sexism is there and it is inherent within the formula and is just another lousy excuse to continue said sexisim.

White (Action Hero) Male Must Lead is a basic part of the formula and it is sexist.

[Agent_Dark]

Sorry, I gotta disagree - not about the using a formula, that's true. The sexism is there and it is inherent within the formula and is just another lousy excuse to continue said sexisim.

White (Action Hero) Male Must Lead is a basic part of the formula and it is sexist.

Would you have called the original SG1 (seasons 1-7 say) sexist then?

[the dancer of spaz]

Would you have called the original SG1 (seasons 1-7 say) sexist then?

No, the original seven seasons of SG-1 weren't sexist (Fragile Balance and a couple of other missteps notwithstanding), because the model was clear from the beginning. RDA was the star, and there's no disputing that.

However, once RDA left and once they established the spin-off, they had free reign to do whatever they wanted. They had relative unknowns on Atlantis, and they had a choice to either perpetuate the model or to think outside the box for SG-1. In both cases, they chose to stick with the same formula (which was admittedly successful under RDA's tenure), rather than paving truly new ground for the franchise.

And it's not to say that Joe Flanigan and Ben Browder were undeserving of the job. Nor does it mean that they haven't done a pretty good job with what they've been given. But the tendency on the part of TPTB's - that desperate clinging to the old school Action/White/Male hero mentality - is where the flaw lies. And the sad part is, there are several other producers from within the scifi genre who managed to break away from that.

Add to that the fact that main females on the Gates tend to only be utilized in relation to said Action/White/Males (whether it's Jack, Daniel, John, Cameron or Rodney), and the flaw becomes glaringly obvious.

[Agent_Dark]

No, the original seven seasons of SG-1 weren't sexist (Fragile Balance and a couple of other missteps notwithstanding), because the model was clear from the beginning. RDA was the star, and there's no disputing that.

However, once RDA left and once they established the spin-off, they had free reign to do whatever they wanted. They had relative unknowns on Atlantis, and they had a choice to either perpetuate the model or to think outside the box for SG-1. In both cases, they chose to stick with the same formula (which was admittedly successful under RDA's tenure), rather than paving truly new ground for the franchise.

And it's not to say that Joe Flanigan and Ben Browder were undeserving of the job. Nor does it mean that they haven't done a pretty good job with what they've been given. But the tendency on the part of TPTB's - that desperate clinging to the old school Action/White/Male hero mentality - is where the flaw lies. And the sad part is, there are several other producers from within the scifi genre who managed to break away from that.

Add to that the fact that main females on the Gates tend to only be utilized in relation to said Action/White/Males (whether it's Jack, Daniel, John, Cameron or Rodney), and the flaw becomes glaringly obvious.

Yeah, but I'm not sure whether an unwillingness to break from the formula which has been so successful for them is an indication of sexism. In fact, almost ironically, the biggest break of the formula came from introducing a new female character in Vala.

[L.A. Doyle]

Would you have called the original SG1 (seasons 1-7 say) sexist then?

Well, for me, I wouldn't. Jack was a Colonel, she was a captain. He was older and more experienced and a higher rank. That's fine. He should definitely be in charge. Now we have two people of the same rank...I'd want the more experienced one(8 years more experienced) calling the shots in the field. Male, female, I don't care, as long as they are best suited for the job. IMHO, Sam was a lot more qualified, simply by, well, being on the team for 7 years and leading for one, compared to Mitchell's....zero. But he got to lead anyway, even when it was clear Sam was sticking around. Why? Cause he's the guy? I don't know...I'm still wishing he'd been Major Mitchell...that would have been interesting...

[the dancer of spaz]

Yeah, but I'm not sure whether an unwillingness to break from the formula which has been so successful for them is an indication of sexism. In fact, almost ironically, the biggest break of the formula came from introducing a new female character in Vala.

And with whom were her strongest ties for the longest time? New and improved Action!Jackson.

Not only was she attached to his hip, but her behavior literally ebbed and flowed depending on his presence or absence. She was not an independent character capable of independent activity for the longest time. And it was typically when Daniel wasn't in an episode that we ever saw her stray away from the VD persona and try something new.

The only way they knew how to break from their pre-existing military formula was to create this boisterously overt sex kitten - the very thing they'd shied away from for years. Though Vala is popular, she's also served as the vessel through which all of their once-dormant fraternity humor is delivered.

Now granted, we've mercifully been given snippets of her depth and of her character. I credit CB and TPTB listening to the boards for that change, because I don't think the writers saw anything wrong with what they were doing.

[tagger]

Spoiled for excess verbage. Rant warning.

Spoiler:

For me, Sam is a character who is reasonably portrayed. Not perfect, but pretty darn nice. I discovered Stargate a little late, so don’t have the depth or history of watching and discussing the character of Sam Carter over the years as many of you do, but I found the character refreshing in many ways.

Through Sam, I do think advances were made in how female characters are typically portrayed – I’m not an expert, nor do I watch enough TV to make an exhaustive argument, but Sam was different as a character because of the lack of many male and/ or female stereotypes.

Sam is strong but not wooden, smart but not nerdy, emotional but not a fainting flower, pretty but not bimbo-ized, female but not limited in military ability, a leader but not witchy, nice but not a pushover...

Many stereotypes were overturned in Sam, but one stereotype I don’t feel was well addressed is the career/ family stereotype – she accomplished a lot professionally, but is not married and does not have children. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I also like seeing accomplished women juggling family responsibilities and demanding careers. Career and family are not mutually exclusive, and balancing those is a reality for many women (I don’t even pretend to know what is best, just saying it is life). I’m not saying Sam could or would be the character to wrestle those demons, it is just on my female character wish list.

As much as I like the idea of concrete leadership roles, and of Sam formally earning one of those roles, I think I saw her as the virtual leader in SG1. Not the formal military leader, but absolutely the scientific leader, the problem solver, the one O’Neill relied on to get them out of the mess of the day. Each team member added value and no-one hesitated to give the “with all due respect” line to Hammond or O’Neill if they had contradicting opinions. The fact that Sam didn’t toot her own horn every time she did something right made her stronger to me. Did she have to have the title to be a real leader? No. For me, Sam was a leader by virtue of her moral choices, actions, and her abilities. No, not perfect, and yes, maybe given too many abilities, but it is just TV.

I think of the thousands of writer, director, crew, and actor hours that went into fabricating Sam and all of SG1. 14 hour days, 9 months a year? Was that the filming pace? Wow! Generally, I think those hours have been well-spent.

I like my daughter to watch Sam solve scientific puzzles. I like that the show has a little humor – yes, sometimes stupid, but mostly silly and snarky. I like that these thread discussions are begun as a result of watching a TV show.

Sam is fictional, but fiction can make me think. Sam is not perfect, but overall, I think the character is well done and enjoyable. I prefer my daughter watching SG1 to many of todays' self- centered kid shows.

I see the male action hero stereotype also, and it is predictable, and cheesy, but I like all heroes – male or female (or animal GO Lassie, GO Seabiscuit, GO Nemo hehe ).

There are many more male action heroes than female, but I think that’s gradually changing.