Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[Skydiver]

A lot of fans treat Sam the same way for "using" Pete. She wasn't creepy, just clumsy with love, as is true for her character. the thing is, she let it go awfully far before she finally did the right thing and let Pete go.

Good thing nobody's life was at stake, eh?

to me, sam came out of grace bound and determined to have a life. and to her a 'life' was a man, white picket fence, dog, maybe kids - although i don't think she'd really thought that part through

thus when pete presented himself, she didn't deny it or ignore it, she tossd herself headlong into it and was determined to make it work. thus, i feel that she ignored all her natural 'eh, this isn't gonna work' feelings and pushed them aside to make sure that she made it work

so she ignored all those warning bells adn pete was besotted enough that he didn't push, thus didn't give her reasons to wonder and question.

we all knwo that sam can have tunnel vision and pete was in that tunnel with her

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

to me, sam came out of grace bound and determined to have a life. and to her a 'life' was a man, white picket fence, dog, maybe kids - although i don't think she'd really thought that part through

thus when pete presented himself, she didn't deny it or ignore it, she tossd herself headlong into it and was determined to make it work. thus, i feel that she ignored all her natural 'eh, this isn't gonna work' feelings and pushed them aside to make sure that she made it work

so she ignored all those warning bells adn pete was besotted enough that he didn't push, thus didn't give her reasons to wonder and question.

we all knwo that sam can have tunnel vision and pete was in that tunnel with her

Yup. And though I have the same squicky feeling about the whole Pete affair as you do, I still believe that Sam acted mostly in character. I do wish that she'd taken him to task for some of the blatant things he'd done, but you know what, I know strong women who would have done the same thing.

So this brings me to what may prove a somewhat controversial subject about Sam's character:

I come from a... I don't know if culture is the right word... mentality, maybe, where people didn't talk about the squicky stuff. A man grabs your thigh at work? You brush him off without really looking at him, then both of you go about your day as if nothing had happened except that there's something there, that feeling akin to what Stephen King is so able to evoke in his writing. Sam gives off that vibe, sometimes, and it was especially clear with Pete.

Now, I'm not saying that Sam was raped as a child, or beaten by her ex-fiance, or anything so tragic. But she may have come from a culture where "bad" was simply not talked about and thus, allowed to flourish. For instance, Jack has never been able to talk about "the bad thing" that happened to his family. He lost his wife, whom he loved very deeply, over that inability.

Anyone else know what I'm talking about? If so, do you think this might be what the writers meant to portray all along?

[scarimor]

Laira and Jack are cut from the same cloth. Both were ultimately married to their obligations. Her place was with her people, Jack's was with his, She knew this. She knew full well that she and Jack were going to end, right then and there, that day. She knew exactly how fragile her hold on Jack was.

Should that have made it any easier for her to let go? I'm glad, from a story viewpoint, that it wasn't. Love is, first and foremost, MINE! YOU CAN'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME, selfish and jealous. Then the true foundation of love, nobility and the desire to make your partner happy, even if it tears you apart, shines through, and you do the right thing.

I agree with your interpretation. I didn't find the story implausible, or contrived. I think it makes sense. It was an interesting drama - and if she'd been happy to lose Jack that would have made no sense.

Nevertheless, I felt annoyed by Laira at that point. And DEM found Laira "creepy".

Which, going back to the origin of this discussion, demonstrates the flaw in the notion that the attitude of S/J-shippers to Laira is comparable to the attitude of the fans I described towards females characters like Sam, Weir etc. Because I am not a S/J shipper, and neither is DEM. And I know that, like me, DEM is not attracted to Jack/RDA like that. Yet we found problems with Laira too. And those problems aren't different ones - it's the fertile-male-as-commodity perception of Jack which Laira exhibited which grates.

A lot of fans treat Sam the same way for "using" Pete. She wasn't creepy, just clumsy with love, as is true for her character. the thing is, she let it go awfully far before she finally did the right thing and let Pete go.

This is an excellent example of how we bring our own feelings to the interpretation of a character's motives and actions. For me, Sam wasn't clumsy. I found the writing of her cliched during the Sam/Pete romance, but that's another matter. What I took away from the ending of that romance was Sam's sudden discovery, when he bought a house for their future together without thinking she should have some input, that he was not the type of guy for her (whoa! shades of The First Commandment Jonas!) . Because that is definitely not the type of guy for me! (edit: I'm assuming that she didn't find out about his FBI-digging).

I found Pete's sudden change from witty, considerate, intelligent lover to goes-behind-your-back info-digger, professional-priviledge-abuser, micro-controller fiance really freaky.

And that, too, is not because the Sam/Pete storyline was a threat to S/J-shippiness. Not remotely.

The thing is, when the types of female fans I was talking about make their ad-nauseum cases against characters like Sam and Weir, they are on a completely different battlefield. An absurd one. They don't just draw on interpretations that different fans sometimes share, or even don't share; they outright manufacture and lie. I'll give just one example, re. Sam in Company of Thieves: according to them, Sam is not resourceful. She can't do anything without getting people killed. And how are we supposed to "know" this:

Spoiler:

Because in Company of Thieves, 'Daniel and Vala came up with a plan to re-take the ship without getting people killed, while Sam couldn't.'

Oh yeah. Even though we know that the plan to re-take the ship was Sam's, and she told Vala and Daniel her plan, and Vala made a deal about it being Sam's - saying that it was better than her's and Daniel's plan because they didn't have one! - this episode shows that Carter couldn't come up with a plan. Uh-huh.

These jealous hypocritical saddos will even re-write the action and dialogue in an episode to bash the female character who dares rival their favoured male's screentime/slashy pairing.

(That's not a generality about m/m slashers, btw - I've written a couple of J/D ficlets myself But don't tell AD ).

[ForeverSg1]

Yay for the gargantuan generalizations. I'm so with you. And I have the answer as to why. (The answer, mind! I'll brook no argument )

The female fans of which you speak are straight women whose primary (if not only) engagement with the show is that they fancy the male characters in question. Having the hots for a male actor/character per se isn't the problem - but if you have little or no other investment in the show, you're on stony ground and any dry period - e.g. anything involving your non-favourite - makes your enjoyment wither away.

In such a context, the female character is an obstacle. She takes screen time away from the favoured male, or comes between a favourite slash m/m pairing, or just doesn't treat the male with the kind of respect and appreciation for his awesome qualities that he deserves - whereas the fan in her place would, of course.

(and of course the fan never will get that chance - which is a tough pill)

It's a big old serving of jealousy with hypocrisy-sauce and bitterness on the side. Such a "fan" will stomp and complain that (spoiler for Insiders)

Spoiler:

Sam gave Ba'al information to save hostages from instant death, even though she stalled him as long as possible and was let down because her codes weren't locked out)

but conveniently forget that Daniel under the same threat gave the Trust Ancient codes which allowed them to steal the Stargate! and slaughter countless millions of Jaffa men, women and children with symbiote poison and has never once shown any remorse or acknowledgement of his role in that genocide.

Personally I find their fetid hypocrisy more entertaining than anything else. Their relentless, tedious complaining tells you a lot about them, and very little about the show.

Ironically, or maybe not, I find fandom to be a lot like high school. It's filled with cliques and childish pettiness; and where high school is often divided into mini social groups such as jocks, geeks, rockers, stoners, ect. Stargate fandom has been divided into groups of Sam fans, Daniel fans, shippers, slashers, ect. And sadly, like their high school counterparts, there are a select few from each group who tend to thrive by ridiculing and bashing anyone who is not a member of their particular group; often using the guise of speaking the truth as a means to put down those they do not like in order to make themselves look bigger in front of their peers.

The one huge difference I have noticed regarding fandom and high school is the margin of girls/women who tend to participate in this negative outlash. In high school, both males and females tend to partake in these harassing rituals; however, in most cases young men tend to express themselves much more physically than verbally, so we tend to see more physical harrassment in high school amongst boys whereas female students tend to be much more verbally abusive. In my opinion, name calling, gossip and rumors have become second nature to some girls/women; and embassassingly a woman is much more likely to partake in one of these acts than a man.

So in my opinion, due to the non-physical nature of the internet, we are less likely to see as many male fans confront or verbally attack an actor or characters of the show, whereas its the perfect medium for female fans. The added bonus is that these women are hidden behind a pseudonym that protects their true identity so they tend to be much more malicious with their verbal attacks than perhaps they normally would be.

I've also noticed that women tend to judge other women much more severely than they do their male counterparts. Maybe it's due to the fact that women, in most cases, are treated as second class citizens often receiving less money for a job, are frequently overlooked for higher profile positions, and are much more likely to be judged by their looks rather than their creditials than a man. We[as women] have been so trained to expect perfection out of one another in order to succeed that we have fallen into the trap of becoming our own worst enemies.

A woman who is successful is often described as a hard, cold b*tch who probably backstabbed or slept her way to the top and the media tends to support this belief with shows like Desperate Housewife that glorify women backstabbing one another in order to get what they want.

In my opinion, the fact that Samantha Carter has managed to remain such a well liked character in spite of some of the storylines she has been given, only proves to me that Amanda is an extremely talented actress who cares very deeply about the character she portrays. I believe it is largely due to her unwavering persistence over the years to try to portray Sam as a member of SG-1 rather than the girl on the team and her insistence that Sam be allowed to co-exist with the other female characters on the show without becoming adversaries that has made SG-1 worth watching.

I'm sure being the sole female voice in a sea of testosterone has often felt like an unending battle for her; and while Amanda may have lost a few squirmishes along the way, I believe she and the other women of Stargate have done a commendable job of portraying strong, intelligent women despite the often lackluster storylines they have been given.


Edited due to my inability to type testosterone correctly before my farkin internet server crashed.

[scarimor]

Anyone else know what I'm talking about? If so, do you think this might be what the writers meant to portray all along?

I would like to think so, but I don't think they've thought about it half as much as they needed to.

[ForeverSg1]

I was pretty ticked off with Laira for not going to Jack immediately when she heard Sam's voice over the radio. Instead she waited for hours - at least three, by the looks of things - which put Teal'c's life in danger. Another few minutes and he would have died.

Yeah, I really had no issues with Laira until that very moment in the episode. I actually understood Jack's reasons for being with her. I actually enjoyed the episode, but I did not like Laira after that scene.

[scarimor]

In my opinion, the fact that Samantha Carter has managed to remain such a well liked character in spite of some of the storylines she has been given, only proves to me that Amanda is an extremely talented actress who cares very deeply about the character she portrays. I believe it is largely due to her unwavering persistence over the years to try to portray Sam as a member of SG-1 rather than the girl on the team and her insistence that Sam be allowed to co-exist with the other female characters on the show without becoming adversaries that has made SG-1 worth watching.

I'm sure being the sole female voice in a sea of testerone has often felt like an unending battle for her; and while Amanda may have lost a few squirmishes along the way, I believe she and the other women of Stargate done a commendable job of portraying strong, intelligent women despite the often lackluster storylines they have been given.

I'm going to shamelessly quote this because it is just awesome. Kudos!
Wonder if the green jelly fridge is open too...?

[scarimor]

hetshippers = boyslashers = bad

lol! Just for you, AD:

Spoiler:

Ok, soooo off-topic here

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Which, going back to the origin of this discussion, demonstrates the flaw in the notion that the attitude of S/J-shippers to Laira is comparable to the attitude of the fans I described towards females characters like Sam, Weir etc. Because I am not a S/J shipper, and neither is DEM. And I know that, like me, DEM is not attracted to Jack/RDA like that. Yet we found problems with Laira too. And those problems aren't different ones - it's the fertile-male-as-commodity perception of Jack which Laira exhibited which grates.

I dunno, I think noromos slash or het who didn't like Laira are the exception - at about the same rate as the male slashers who happen to like Sam. But I can only guess based on the posts I've read.

I never saw Laira as seeing Jack as a sperm bank. I think she really liked him from the start - hey, who wouldn't - and then, when he was stuck there anyway, why wouldn't she try to begin a relationship with him?

How many times have we heard of women trying to have a baby in the hopes that a child will bring the love back into the couple's relationship? It may be a flawed reasoning, but it's a prevalent one, lemmetellya. In her heart Laira knew that Jack was here to stay. She knew he had affection for her - that kiss on the road was Jack's - so she must have thought that a child was the best way to this man's heart. It was probably a trueism in her society, just as some women here do.

When you're as lonely as Laira must have been, you find love where you can, and even if it's not perfect, it's better than the emptiness she'd know up until Jack's arrival into her life.

[Mandysg1]

*Wonders if DEM has counted to 1000 yet*

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

*Wonders if DEM has counted to 1000 yet*

<blinks innocently> Was it sumpin' I said?

[JenniferJF]

to me, sam came out of grace bound and determined to have a life. and to her a 'life' was a man, white picket fence, dog, maybe kids - although i don't think she'd really thought that part through

thus when pete presented himself, she didn't deny it or ignore it, she tossd herself headlong into it and was determined to make it work. thus, i feel that she ignored all her natural 'eh, this isn't gonna work' feelings and pushed them aside to make sure that she made it work

so she ignored all those warning bells adn pete was besotted enough that he didn't push, thus didn't give her reasons to wonder and question.

we all knwo that sam can have tunnel vision and pete was in that tunnel with her

Skydiver, I agree completely, 100% here. I found it totally in character, too. Just because you've a brilliant mind doesn't make you able to brilliantly handle emotions. That's why they're *emotions*, not ideas. In fact, in my experience, being smart often makes emotions harder precisely because they aren't rational.

And yes, the whole Pete thing was cliched. But again, I think that was intentional. Sam was seeking the "cliche," as she herself indicated in Affinity. I find it interesting that it was Jacob who, IMHO, held a mirror up to her and helped her realize she would never be happy that way -- you can't decide what emotions you will or will not have, and happiness may require thinking outside the box... but that's a topic for another board

[minigeek]

Skydiver, I agree completely, 100% here. I found it totally in character, too. Just because you've a brilliant mind doesn't make you able to brilliantly handle emotions.

Sky and Jennifer, bang on. In fact, one of the best and most profound lines I've read to date in fanfiction has been from one of Strix's stories called "Looking Up"

Strix writes:

Sam Carter was wise enough to know that her emotional and social IQ was not as high as her intellect. She was a “thinker,” not a “feeler,” and the intricacies of her heart were sometimes more mysterious to her than the so-called secrets of the universe. Gravity and quantum physics, she understood. But there was no mathematical proof for love, no numerical formula for loneliness. Her heart and mind were often at war. The world should be logical, but her heart refused to operate by any guidelines she could safely tabulate or predict. And sometimes she hated that fundamental truth of her existence.

That, to me, is totally Sam Carter. Can't say it any better than that. So I won't even try.

Eloquent posts guys...

mg

[the dancer of spaz]

Ironically, or maybe not, I find fandom to be a lot like high school. It's filled with cliques and childish pettiness; and where high school is often divided into mini social groups such as jocks, geeks, rockers, stoners, ect. Stargate fandom has been divided into groups of Sam fans, Daniel fans, shippers, slashers, ect. And sadly, like their high school counterparts, there are a select few from each group who tend to thrive by ridiculing and bashing anyone who is not a member of their particular group; often using the guise of speaking the truth as a means to put down those they do not like in order to make themselves look bigger in front of their peers.

The one huge difference I have noticed regarding fandom and high school is the margin of girls/women who tend to participate in this negative outlash. In high school, both males and females tend to partake in these harassing rituals; however, in most cases young men tend to express themselves much more physically than verbally, so we tend to see more physical harrassment in high school amongst boys whereas female students tend to be much more verbally abusive. In my opinion, name calling, gossip and rumors have become second nature to some girls/women; and embassassingly a woman is much more likely to partake in one of these acts than a man.

So in my opinion, due to the non-physical nature of the internet, we are less likely to see as many male fans confront or verbally attack an actor or characters of the show, whereas its the perfect medium for female fans. The added bonus is that these women are hidden behind a pseudonym that protects their true identity so they tend to be much more malicious with their verbal attacks than perhaps they normally would be.

I've also noticed that women tend to judge other women much more severely than they do their male counterparts. Maybe it's due to the fact that women, in most cases, are treated as second class citizens often receiving less money for a job, are frequently overlooked for higher profile positions, and are much more likely to be judged by their looks rather than their creditials than a man. We[as women] have been so trained to expect perfection out of one another in order to succeed that we have fallen into the trap of becoming our own worst enemies.

A woman who is successful is often described as a hard, cold b*tch who probably backstabbed or slept her way to the top and the media tends to support this belief with shows like Desperate Housewife that glorify women backstabbing one another in order to get what they want.

In my opinion, the fact that Samantha Carter has managed to remain such a well liked character in spite of some of the storylines she has been given, only proves to me that Amanda is an extremely talented actress who cares very deeply about the character she portrays. I believe it is largely due to her unwavering persistence over the years to try to portray Sam as a member of SG-1 rather than the girl on the team and her insistence that Sam be allowed to co-exist with the other female characters on the show without becoming adversaries that has made SG-1 worth watching.

I'm sure being the sole female voice in a sea of testerone has often felt like an unending battle for her; and while Amanda may have lost a few squirmishes along the way, I believe she and the other women of Stargate done a commendable job of portraying strong, intelligent women despite the often lackluster storylines they have been given.

/applauds heartily

[the dancer of spaz]

I saw your sig, Dancer of Spaz and that reminded me: how's it going? Are lots of folks signing up?

We've got a few takers, but I think we mostly have people who will go to the LJ to READ the fics once they're posted.

I'll have to ask Deej and Sky, but I think we may need to take this to the heavy LJ circuit (where there are LOADS of talented authors, who've been writing the SG women for a long time now) over the next week or so. Thanks for asking!

That, to me, is totally Sam Carter. Can't say it any better than that. So I won't even try.

Eloquent posts guys...

mg

Oy. I was looking for this "post" by Strix so I could give her some jello, only to find that it's evidently an excerpt from a fic, right? I guess the ALL CAPS and bold wasn't obvious enough.