Cameron - Discussion and Appreciation

[gbbarb]

Yeppers, I've given up on taking any notice. Some posters will just keep continually finding fault with everything from day 1... (you learn to recognise the handles and it is just a few posting in every thread. So for my enjoyment I only stick to these 2 Threads and only wander in to read about the episodes when I've seen them.



Great word!

I loved this eppy too... for all the reasons you and others have stated, so I'm not going to rehash... I even loved Dr. Lee in this and I must admit, that character has not really been a fav... but "...I've calculated how far their tiny legs will take them." was classic.

I loved all the strong relationship moments but there is one thing bugging me now! Mitchell is NOT new to gate anymore. I thought his military instincts for going to the Sodan World were believable and logical PLUS he really wasn't doing any good on Earth. Sam did not even attempt to argue the point so why have her saying later to Daniel... "... I couldn't stop him"?
It seems the writers can't seem to have the older characters coming together to 'rap him over the knuckles for naughty pranks' all the time. This is getting really old and tiresome. Yes, we know he says he can be hotheaded (his words)... IMO, I just believe it to be as Fergie recognised, he thinks fast and sees 'windows of opportunity' that OK, less cautious peeps may never make the call on. We know the other characters are somewhat used to it all and fairly jaded, but their whole stance and pose is just so casual that it's over-emphasising, making Cameron seem 'hot-headed' all the time (which just isn't the case), and undermining his military position. I love Ben's physical acting and the energy emitted... I loved the 'touchdown - scored' actions and all his other very reactive, natural expressions. Loved the 'invisible' fight. Loved the whole eppy, except for that one little thing. Wish they'd get passed that.

To quote Fergie... "Just be yourself Cam... I'ts pretty darn good."

*Edited to say that it is possible that Dan and Sam were just commenting and realising that as part of his personality, Cam just doesn't let go once his mind is set. However, I still think that the continuous eye roll and snippy comments are giving the impression of more than that. All I want is that along with that, they are also able to admit and show some respect to Mitchell and his actions. Teal'c does and their relationship is going from strength to strength.*

You say it so much better than I do Kas. If they would lose the constant tsk, tsking (my turn for a new word) of Cameron and treat him like an intelligent person. I love the whole touchdown and other reaction shots as you know that is all Ben doing. He so-o-o-o entertains me.

[gbbarb]

I know exactly what you mean, Kas. Having Sam and Daniel react that way just gives ammunition to the anti-Mitchell's so they can say, "See! See! Even Sam and Daniel are frustrated with him!" when I don't believe they really are. Why they play it that way sometimes and other times you can see that they really admire and like him? Maybe it's my pro-Mitchell slant, but I take the eye-rolling scenes and chalk them up to Sam and Daniel getting used to Mitchell, not that they really disagree with what he is doing. I know Sam is supposed to know him from before, but we don't know that she actually worked with him, so she could still be getting used to that side.

And, you're right, you'd think they'd all be acting proactive like Mitchell does. They are all smart and know the consequences of doing nothing against the baddies they've faced. It seems like sometimes only Teal'c recognizes that the proactive Mitchell is getting things done.

What's ironic is that, for all that some people can't let go the fact that O'Neill is gone, I think he would be acting the same way Mitchell does. O'Neill wouldn't be standing around waiting for Sam to painstakingly help Daniel decipher the Ancient letters while Teal'c was in trouble.

Also, like you said, Sam's only concern when Mitchell told her he was going to help Teal'c was whether he would be "out of range" should Daniel figure out what to do and then Mitchell could be out of phase forever. Once she expressed that concern, it was up to Mitchell to decide to take that chance or not. At the time, she seemed satisfied that he knew the consequences of his decision. Any regret at that point seemed to be because she would be sad if he sacrificed himself.

So, yeah, I don't know what the eye-rolling scene was about. Mitchell is going to do whatever it takes to get the job done and to keep his team safe. His leaving didn't put Sam or Daniel or anyone else at the SGC in danger.

I don't think they have fingured out that he considers his job to be the ones to take the risks to keep the rest of them safe. If someone has to take the hit or get hurt - Mitchell will make sure it is him and not the rest.

[Kas]

That part annoyed me intensely. I was hoping the Sodan would continue to be an important ally for SG1 and that Mitchell would have that advantage. Instead they take it away and write him as doing something the rest of the team considers rash. I swear there is no guiding force in this series that makes sure all of the writers and directors are on the same page.

OMG... I can't believe I forgot about responding to that in Chillin's post. That also bugged me as I was hoping for more from the Sodan. It seemed to be setting it up to be Mitchell's 'thing' but as you say was taken so quickly and his involvement glossed over:

Reynold's says, "The only reason we got those codes was because Col. Mitchell gained their trust. I doubt they would have given them to anyone else."

As you say, off screen they have Mitchell doing all what it takes to be accepted as a quality addition to SG1, but the way they are sometimes writing not just him on screen, but the other characters reacting to him, is questionable.

[gbbarb]

These things are becoming more like transcripts and less like analyzations. Sigh.
Maybe I can't keep up with all the Mitchell-goodness lately...

But we love them so you must continue

Throws brownies - [] [] []
cupcakes [} [} [}
cookies O O O O
and pretzels & & & &

at Chillin to keep for happy so she will continue

[Dream-a-Little]

So what did everyone think of Arthur's Mantle? I really liked it. It wasn't perfect. I wasn't thrilled with how the Sodan village destruction took a back seat to the comedy, and I really thought we needed to see Mitchell react to the destruction and especially to the death of his friends.

But I really liked Mitchell in this. He was less reckless and OTT than OTG but was still the same guy. I think Stronghold did foretell a change in Mitchell's character. He's a bit rash. Still not a hothead, and now that I think about it, I wonder if the word was a mistake. Maybe they meant hotdog? Because that would fit a bit more.

But I didn't have a sense of "why is the leader of SG-1 acting that way" here. His behavior fit the goofy situation, and he explained his actions to go help Teal'c really well. If he'd just left without telling Sam, then I would've been mad, but he didn't do that.

I knew this was another PDL/AM outing so I was really dreading this episode and was surprised and relieved at what we got. It feels like somebody did a once over on this one and toned down a lot of the PDL/AM excesses here.

They made a point of having Daniel and General Landry state and agree that Mitchell was uniquely qualified for this mission. Mitchell didn’t even contemplate going through the gate until it was determined that Teal’c was very likely in trouble. Why does Mitchell go through the gate when he knows he is out of phase? Why does Sam stay in the gate room and try to help Walter and the tech figure out the transmission? It is something that she is uniquely qualified to do and even though she knows they can’t see or hear her, she still needs to be there and she still needs to try. Same thing with Mitchell, both he and Sam needed to try to affect a situation for which they were uniquely qualified, in spite of the fact that they were out of phase, and hope that fate would open up an opportunity for them to be able to do so. In Sam’s case no opportunity presented itself, but in Mitchell’s case it actually did.

Ben’s delivery here is calm and reasoned. I didn’t even remotely get the feeling of hot headed here or even hotdog. What I got was determined and adamant. (I also think that Jack would have done the same thing here.)

They gave the “Lone Ranger - I’m not waiting for reinforcements” action to Teal’c this time out. Thank you God! We even get Mitchell pointing out to Teal’c that there is a difference between crazy/brave and crazy/crazy. I think someone was trying to reassure the audience that Mitchell does indeed know the difference between the two.

It seems like someone in charge finally woke up and realized that PDL and AM were really not on the same page (heck I don’t even think they were in the same book) as the rest of the writers and drop kicked them more back into line with everyone else. Maybe JM choked on another sandwich like he did when he realized that PDL had gone off the reservation in Ripple Effect. I really want to believe that there really is someone in the front seat driving this car. Otherwise they are just going to end up crashing and burning.

What I really liked:

- Sam and Cam hitting each other twice!
- Cam longing for some sort of meal. LOL
- Dr. Lee thinking they were miniaturized.
- The typing with Daniel and the way they could convey their excitement of finally getting someone to realize what was going on.
- Cam giving a running commentary during the scene where Daniel explains what's going on to Landry. Love the football touchdown part where he spins off camera.
- Mitchell saying something like, "After a mutli-universe, multiple dimensions, all I need now is time travel and I'll have the SG-1 trifecta."
- "Ooh, the daily double."
- Mitchell wearing his uniform sleeves rolled up again. ;D
- Teal'c not surprised to see him.
- Teal'c taking a giagantic swipe at him that could've killed him if he hadn't been invisible.

I loved pretty much everything that you did about this episode too, especially the Mitchell/Sam interaction. I also loved “General, we need a Whoopie.”

The niggles I have are all in the Sodan portion of the episode. Why kill them all off, they just got here? And like you I wonder why there was no opportunity for some kind of emotional reaction by Mitchell to the death of people that he considered to be friends. I kind of felt robbed on that one.

I'm really loving Sam and Cam's brother/sister relationship on the show, and I'm also loving Teal'c and Cam and the way Cam is somewhat like an annoying yippy dog around Teal'c. I'm still waiting for Daniel and Cam's relationship, though, which is odd because they seem like they would have the easiest time getting along.

I wish they’d do more with Cameron/Daniel as well.

[Dream-a-Little]

You know, you're probably right. I tend to try to find excuses and rationalizations for some of Mitchell's actions because of the reactions of the anti-Mitchell fans out there. I need to stop doing that - especially since I don't find it such a problem if he was attracted to Reya, either. Aaarrrgghh, I need to just enjoy the show and not worry about how to make Mitchell acceptable to those that don't want to accept him in any form. --I'll have to try to catch Daughters of Privilege sometime. Ben dancing...

Count me as a huge Mitchell/Reya fan. The only part that I didn’t like about that was that she ended up dead. I thought she and BB had some tremendous chemistry going on. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to revisit that.

On a brighter note... I loved Arthur's Mantle!!! I thought Crystal Skull was fun and I had high hopes for more invisible-funness [I just made up a word], and I wasn't disappointed! Mitchell and Sam poking each other; Mitchell wanting roast beef - and hash browns!; Sam telling him it's only been a couple of hours [LOL]; the SG-1 Trifecta; TOUCHDOWN! when Daniel figured it out; miniaturization - hee; the Daily Double; "Did you even think twice before you did that?" to Teal'c; "I came here to rescue you." Oh, and so much more. Everything everyone else has mentioned and all the other stuff, too. Fun, fun, fun.

It was fun, and more so since I was kind of leery going into it given it’s parentage. The SGC out of phase portion of this episode, in particular, was a real delight. Actually that portion of the episode was probably the most fun part of any episode this season for me.

Well, except for the loss of the Sodan. So sad, especially since the trust Mitchell had with the Sodan was something unique he could bring to the team.
I do like that Daniel acknowledged that when they first were sent to see what happened and he said Mitchell should go, and someone later said that they had the codes because the Sodan gave them to Mitchell. But it's sad that the writers gave this one "advantage" to Mitchell and then took it away so soon.

Yes, they have given him so few “advantages” having them remove this one makes them seem stingy in the extreme.

[Dream-a-Little]

I loved all the strong relationship moments but there is one thing bugging me now! Mitchell is NOT new to gate anymore. I thought his military instincts for going to the Sodan World were believable and logical PLUS he really wasn't doing any good on Earth. Sam did not even attempt to argue the point so why have her saying later to Daniel... "... I couldn't stop him"?
It seems the writers can't seem to have the older characters coming together to 'rap him over the knuckles for naughty pranks' all the time. This is getting really old and tiresome.

It’s become very tiresome and very, very old. And I don't see why you would want to keep doing this. I mean aren't they literally inviting the audience to follow their lead and respond to the character in the same way? That seems to be a destructive approach to a character that you are supposed to be integrating into your show.

Yes, we know he says he can be hotheaded (his words)... IMO, I just believe it to be as Fergie recognised, he thinks fast and sees 'windows of opportunity' that OK, less cautious peeps may never make the call on. We know the other characters are somewhat used to it all and fairly jaded, but their whole stance and pose is just so casual that it's over-emphasising, making Cameron seem 'hot-headed' all the time (which just isn't the case), and undermining his military position. I love Ben's physical acting and the energy emitted... I loved the 'touchdown - scored' actions and all his other very reactive, natural expressions. Loved the 'invisible' fight. Loved the whole eppy, except for that one little thing. Wish they'd get passed that.

To quote Fergie... "Just be yourself Cam... I'ts pretty darn good."

I think if you are going in the “Fergie” direction with the character, that’s a good and constructive thing. That seems to be what we are getting for the most part in the non PDL/AM episodes. But PDL and AM seem to be using Mitchell’s own words as the model in their direction and writing and I agree that this approach undermines his military position within the show. Since this is a show that revolves around the military aspect that is a very bad thing. To do that is to be deliberately destructive towards the character.

*Edited to say that it is possible that Dan and Sam were just commenting and realising that as part of his personality, Cam just doesn't let go once his mind is set. However, I still think that the continuous eye roll and snippy comments are giving the impression of more than that. All I want is that along with that, they are also able to admit and show some respect to Mitchell and his actions. Teal'c does and their relationship is going from strength to strength.*

It seems here that someone did rework this episode to tone a lot of the PDL/AM excesses down, but I think maybe they forgot to get the message across to MS and AT in regards to the eye roll and snippy comments. I don’t even really think it fits here. You could see them making this response in OTG but in the toned down approach to the rest of this episode, Daniel’s and Sam’s reaction here seemed noticeably out of place and felt like a false note. It’s kind of like they forgot what episode they are in.

[Dream-a-Little]

I know exactly what you mean, Kas. Having Sam and Daniel react that way just gives ammunition to the anti-Mitchell's so they can say, "See! See! Even Sam and Daniel are frustrated with him!"

Exactly, are these writers just so totally brain dead for that not to register. Why do that?

What's ironic is that, for all that some people can't let go the fact that O'Neill is gone, I think he would be acting the same way Mitchell does. O'Neill wouldn't be standing around waiting for Sam to painstakingly help Daniel decipher the Ancient letters while Teal'c was in trouble.

I agree that Jack would have done the same thing here, and no one would have had a problem with it. I'm wondering whether people will have a problem with Teal'c's ala Stronghold "running up the hill behavior" here in this episode, or whether it's just something that is verboten for Mitchell. I hate double standards.

[Dream-a-Little]

Spoiler:

I read somewhere that Daniel doesn't trust him due to his rash actions. Why can't they just have a good relationship? Why can't the conflicts come from differences instead of one being wrong.

And see I wouldn't have gotten that at all. I would have said that he was withholding with Mitchell, but not that. And I would have said that the fact that he was withholding with Mitchell was really more about Daniel than Mitchell. Daniel just doesn't let himself get close to anyone that easily. Mitchell is a very open and approachable person. Daniel is just more closed off. Nothing in MS's performance would have led me to read that any other way.

Again this makes me feel like everyone just isn't on the same page with each other.

[Dream-a-Little]

The Ben Browder Portal has a full transcript of Ben's Starlog interview. Here's the link.

http://www.benbrowderportal.com/inde...213&Itemid=139

[Lightsabre]

Hi all
New here. Not a Mitchell fan per se, but I do like the character.
I wouldn't bore you all, but I needed to post something to subscribe
Thanks for listening

[Anya]

Hi all
New here. Not a Mitchell fan per se, but I do like the character.
I wouldn't bore you all, but I needed to post something to subscribe
Thanks for listening

Welcome to the thread, Lightsabre.

[ShardsofGlass]

I read somewhere that Daniel doesn't trust him due to his rash actions. Why can't they just have a good relationship? Why can't the conflicts come from differences instead of one being wrong.

I can't see how this is a spoiler, so I took off the tags. I hope that's okay. Anyway, I heard this about not trusting Mitchell too, but it came from someone who had gone to see MS at a con in the UK. I believe the comment had to do strictly with OTG and not about Mitchell in general. And in that context, where Mitchell says he's the best one to act like a drug dealer, I can see why Daniel wouldn't trust him. Heck, I didn't trust him to be a good drug dealer, either! But I think otherwise it's pretty clear that Daniel does trust him.

[ShardsofGlass]

I knew this was another PDL/AM outing so I was really dreading this episode and was surprised and relieved at what we got. It feels like somebody did a once over on this one and toned down a lot of the PDL/AM excesses here.

Yeah, I was dreading it too. I was afraid we'd get another OTG type of Mitchell. I wonder what it is about McCullough(?) and having Mitchell go off on his own? This seems to be what bugs most fans. But you know, as soon as I type that, I have to question myself. Did it bug me? Or does it bug me now that I've seen a lot of Mitchell bashing because of it?

And the honest answer is, no, it didn't bug me while I watched it. I thought Mitchell made a good argument for going off world, and I agree with whoever said that Jack would've done the same thing. Sure there was some risk involved, but there's risk with everything they do, and I think it's inherent to Mitchell's character to take those kinds of risks.

This kind of issue reminds me of Prometheus Unbound. I had started watching SG-1 during the back half of S8 because Ben and Claudia had joined the show. So first I saw Gemini, and I almost cried it was so boring. I couldn't stand Carter, and I couldn't understand why anyone would watch such a boring character. (I like her much better in a smaller capacity now.) My main problem was that she never seemed to react to anything in the ep. She was seeing her doppleganger and that didn't freak her out one little bit.

Then PU came on the following week, and it was funny and cute and wasn't boring at all. When I came online to GW and other places, I was shocked to see how many people had liked Gemini and hated PU. A lot of the conversation was hung up on military procedures and whether a character like Vala had a place on SG and how the humor was too low brow and too sexual, etc. And I remember thinking, but it wasn't boring! LOL

There were also a lot of threads about things like tank tops and how they were inappropriate for the military, and I remember thinking that people were too hung up on this military stuff. LOL

Anyway, now, here I am, hung up on what some fans here think of Mitchell as a leader and a military guy, when I should be asking myself, yeah, but is he entertaining? Is he boring? And my answer is hell no! LOL If Mitchell never did anything but be the cautious, uptight military guy that a lot of people seem to expect him to be, ugh. I like that he makes things happen and takes risks. I like that he's a little goofy and has a sense of humor. It doesn't bother me that he's a leader who also talks too much at times, or complains about not getting lunch, or takes risks to keep his team safe. In fact, I like all these things about him. They're fun and really humorous.

O'Neill was unconventional like that. It makes for a much more interesting show. If Mitchell hadn't gone off world in AM, then we wouldn't have gotten those great scenes with Teal'c, and those were hilarious. "Did you even think twice before taking a swing at me?" "No, I did not." LOL

They made a point of having Daniel and General Landry state and agree that Mitchell was uniquely qualified for this mission. Mitchell didn’t even contemplate going through the gate until it was determined that Teal’c was very likely in trouble. Why does Mitchell go through the gate when he knows he is out of phase? Why does Sam stay in the gate room and try to help Walter and the tech figure out the transmission? It is something that she is uniquely qualified to do and even though she knows they can’t see or hear her, she still needs to be there and she still needs to try. Same thing with Mitchell, both he and Sam needed to try to affect a situation for which they were uniquely qualified, in spite of the fact that they were out of phase, and hope that fate would open up an opportunity for them to be able to do so. In Sam’s case no opportunity presented itself, but in Mitchell’s case it actually did.

Ben’s delivery here is calm and reasoned. I didn’t even remotely get the feeling of hot headed here or even hotdog. What I got was determined and adamant. (I also think that Jack would have done the same thing here.)

They gave the “Lone Ranger - I’m not waiting for reinforcements” action to Teal’c this time out. Thank you God! We even get Mitchell pointing out to Teal’c that there is a difference between crazy/brave and crazy/crazy. I think someone was trying to reassure the audience that Mitchell does indeed know the difference between the two.

Yep, I agree with everything above.

It seems like someone in charge finally woke up and realized that PDL and AM were really not on the same page (heck I don’t even think they were in the same book) as the rest of the writers and drop kicked them more back into line with everyone else. Maybe JM choked on another sandwich like he did when he realized that PDL had gone off the reservation in Ripple Effect. I really want to believe that there really is someone in the front seat driving this car. Otherwise they are just going to end up crashing and burning.

Well, the inconsistencies in Mitchell do make me wonder at the showrunner and how much he's paying attention to things. It almost seems like they tried someting in OTG and decided, no, that's too much. Dial Cameron down a little next time, PDL. Personally, I think in this last ep, Mitchell was in the same vein as he was in OTG, but just less. He came across more as a military leader here but still as someone who's a bit unpredictable.

Oh, and I wanted to respond to those who talked about the tsk-tsking. I totally see what you mean, and I think it's that kind of thing that's giving a lot of fans fuel for their "Mitchell is a terrible leader" stuff. I know they were playing that for laughs, but it would be nice to see it balanced out with some competence that the others could notice as well.

[Dream-a-Little]

Yeah, I was dreading it too. I was afraid we'd get another OTG type of Mitchell. I wonder what it is about McCullough(?) and having Mitchell go off on his own? This seems to be what bugs most fans. But you know, as soon as I type that, I have to question myself. Did it bug me? Or does it bug me now that I've seen a lot of Mitchell bashing because of it?

Good point, it easy to lose perspective in the face of negativity. For me I do disagree with most of what people have been saying about Mitchell. For me the missteps with the character have boiled down to these:

1. Wallpapering the character during the first half of the season.

2. Isolating Mitchell even into parts of the second half. I really, really wanted to see him interacting sooner and more closely with Sam, Daniel and Teal'c.

3. Allen M. contributions of Mitchell pushing the button in Prototype, the heavy handedness of Stronghold, the IMO taking the character out of character in OTG, the condescending attitude to Mitchell sometimes exhibited by the other characters.

But I have also gotten episodes like CD, Ethon, the second part of OTG and Scourge. These episodes seemed to me to move the character in the direction that IMO he needed to go in. Less unquestioning fan boy, more trusting of his own instincts, more decisive, and more authoritive. And I saw elements of these things here in AM as well. It’s just that the PDL/AM renegade instances have been “loud” where the other IMO positive things have been quieter and more subtle. And IMO a lot of people here and on other Stargate boards don’t seem to pick up well on subtle. Particularly since the “loud” seems to further previously established agendas. That’s aggravating. I’m not trying to come across as negative and rain on anybodies parade and if I have been, then truly I do apologize. But I do wish that TPTB would not feed the anti Mitchell agenda some people have. I think that they have done that by lacking courage in their approach to the character in the first half and through some carelessness in the second half.

Then PU came on the following week, and it was funny and cute and wasn't boring at all. When I came online to GW and other places, I was shocked to see how many people had liked Gemini and hated PU. A lot of the conversation was hung up on military procedures and whether a character like Vala had a place on SG and how the humor was too low brow and too sexual, etc. And I remember thinking, but it wasn't boring! LOL

There were also a lot of threads about things like tank tops and how they were inappropriate for the military, and I remember thinking that people were too hung up on this military stuff. LOL

Some things just boil down to a matter of personal taste. For instance I like the romance angle in CD that most long term fans seem to hate. On that point they and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. But just because that particular aspect was not to the taste of some long term fans doesn’t mean TPTB should back away from it. If no one is complaining about something then my guess is that they are making the show for too narrow an audience.