Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Ikorni]

Okay then a question, do you think Jack tried to retire after threads, do you think that the move to Washington was all part of Sam and Jack relationship, or do you think that it was just circumstances?

I know in SGA the return, Jack does say about retiring, and Sam also mentions it in SGA too, but then we know he doesn't retire due to him appearing in SGU. If someone wants to retire from the USAF can they really be stopped?

That could have gone either way, I think. He could have retired (and his retirements tend to be short-lived) and got called back, or he and Sam could have orchestrated the move in order for them to move forward together.

That, or the president won't let him go.

[Sparky She-Demon]

That could have gone either way, I think. He could have retired (and his retirements tend to be short-lived) and got called back, or he and Sam could have orchestrated the move in order for them to move forward together.

That, or the president won't let him go.

How about it being a combination of all three?

[Nynaeve506]

Yes they can stop someone from retiring. It's called a stop loss - my father's retirement was put off for a year. What I think happened though was that Jack went to DC and Sam went to Area 51 which put them no longer in the same direct chain of command. Then, I have my head canon (which is the only way it could work and not break regs), they got married forcing the military to have to find a way to accommodate them.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Yes they can stop someone from retiring. It's called a stop loss - my father's retirement was put off for a year. What I think happened though was that Jack went to DC and Sam went to Area 51 which put them no longer in the same direct chain of command. Then, I have my head canon (which is the only way it could work and not break regs), they got married forcing the military to have to find a way to accommodate them.

The Air Force had to accomodate them. They still wanted/needed them both. So Sam and Jack forced their hand.

[SaraBahama]

Okay then a question, do you think Jack tried to retire after threads, do you think that the move to Washington was all part of Sam and Jack relationship, or do you think that it was just circumstances?

I know in SGA the return, Jack does say about retiring, and Sam also mentions it in SGA too, but then we know he doesn't retire due to him appearing in SGU. If someone wants to retire from the USAF can they really be stopped?

Muhahahah.*
Muse steeples fingers*

Presidents are allowed to refuse resignation letters if they feel that the person is of vital importance to the nation's security in their job capacity (IIRC -*covers head for potential thrashing*).

The President should still by Hayes at this point, and he definitely thinks Jack is irreplacible.

In my head at least, Jack sent his resignation letter prior to the cabin trip in 'Threads' -and was contacted by Hammond (perhaps even at the end of the weekend) on behalf of the President with the bad news that Hayes is not letting him go.

The rest of the scene is working itself out in my head, but ultimately I think that Hayes offers the PCS (Permanent Change of Station) transferring Jack to Washington and Sam to Nellis, removing them from chain of command and permitting the relationship.

It's a really happy place in my head -you'll have to excuse me.

EDIT: Nynaeve beat me to it...it's a lovely headcanon.

[Nynaeve506]

The Air Force had to accomodate them. They still wanted/needed them both. So Sam and Jack forced their hand.

Only if they are married. Not married and they can be ordered to stop fraternizing. Doesn't matter the rank.

[Sparky She-Demon]

That's what I meant.

[Nynaeve506]

That's what I meant.

Yes. Welcome to the deepest parts of shipperdom LOL We like our interpretations here

[Starry Starry Night]

I agree with everyone that it's not that Sam would love Jack more, but he is just better at hiding his feelings. But when ever Sam is hurt or missing, only then he is forced to face his own feelings. He has suffered the most horrible loss imaginanle in the past and when he there is a posibility of him losin Sam it really scares him..
They really both love each other so deeply. *sigh*

[Starry Starry Night]

Only if they are married. Not married and they can be ordered to stop fraternizing. Doesn't matter the rank.

Hmmm... In my head they are actually not married, well, at least not until Sam comes back from Atlantis. Not necessarily after that either.. But I do think that at this point, after Threads, if Jak would say he wants no longer wants to be in the same chain of command as Sam, and that could mean either retiring or just leaving SGC, at that point the air force Would accomodate. I guess military is not an institution known for rooting for romance, but the institution does consist of people. And I think at this point they would owe both Sam and Jack this much, they have saved the world so many times, now they want happiness for themselves... I think those who are in the positions to make decisions would nderstand them and accomodate..

Well, this is how I see it. Because as said, I don't think they get married right away, but I do think their transfers and the whole thing happened very amigably and with the consent of those in power..

[hlndncr]

Hmmm... In my head they are actually not married, well, at least not until Sam comes back from Atlantis. Not necessarily after that either.. But I do think that at this point, after Threads, if Jak would say he wants no longer wants to be in the same chain of command as Sam, and that could mean either retiring or just leaving SGC, at that point the air force Would accomodate. I guess military is not an institution known for rooting for romance, but the institution does consist of people. And I think at this point they would owe both Sam and Jack this much, they have saved the world so many times, now they want happiness for themselves... I think those who are in the positions to make decisions would nderstand them and accomodate..

Well, this is how I see it. Because as said, I don't think they get married right away, but I do think their transfers and the whole thing happened very amigably and with the consent of those in power..

This is a lovely sentiment, but it's just not how the military works, and Sam and Jack know that. That's why I agree with Nyn 100%. The only sure guarantee that they can be together is if they marry. After all Sam and Jack have gone through to be together I'm certain they wouldn't take the chance on always having sympathetic commanders, who regardless would not and could not ignore mission critical needs because it may feel like the right thing to do. That's just not realistic or practical. Sam and Jack being realistic and practical people would act accordingly.

[Nynaeve506]

This is a lovely sentiment, but it's just not how the military works, and Sam and Jack know that. That's why I agree with Nyn 100%. The only sure guarantee that they can be together is if they marry. After all Sam and Jack have gone through to be together I'm certain they wouldn't take the chance on always having sympathetic commanders, who regardless would not and could not ignore mission critical needs because it may feel like the right thing to do. That's just not realistic or practical. Sam and Jack being realistic and practical people would act accordingly.

This. Thanks hlndncr.

In the military, you conform to *it*, not it to you. That's just fact. Factually in order for them to be together they have to be married, otherwise they aren't together - or if they are they're flaunting the regs, something they've *never* done and they're setting a horrible example and would no doubt be reprimanded. I can't imagine the Jack and Sam we know being so cavalier. They do it by the books. That's who they are.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Yes. Welcome to the deepest parts of shipperdom LOL We like our interpretations here

So I've gotten to the deepest parts of shipperdom? I thouhgt it would take longer!

[hedwig]

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Brief Candle

Favorite Scene: When Jack collapses on the second day and Sam catches him and cradles him in her arms.

Favorite Quote: Have an apple. What could happen?



To sum up:
SG1 arrives on a planet, and moments later wind up helping a couple deliver a baby … or, rather Daniel does the helping to deliver since Sam objects, having had no experience with delivering babies.

A party is held to celebrate the new birth. Not long later, it appears that Jack has been “taken” by a pretty lady who wants only him when she offers him cake. Said cake is apparently already waiting to be given to some prospective mate, since Kynthia seemed to have it to give Jack moments after spying him in the courtyard. And it seems an odd sort of cake to have ready at hand in celebration of a birth.

Now, by this time in the series, and after having touched that crystal in “Cold Lazarus”, and after what happened to Sam on P3X-whatever when she drank that stuff that made her take off one of her undergarments, and after what happened to Sam in “Emancipation”, the group should be especially wary of people offering them cake or cookies or anything edible. But, apparently Jack has forgotten those episodes and eats the cake while eerie music plays softly in the background. I rather expected a shark to pop up from the fountain they were all sitting on.

When Jack is led away by Kynthia, the team tries to stop them, only to have their way blocked and themselves physically restrained by the villagers. After what happened to Sam in “Emancipation”, how could they simply allow this to happen? Plus, since when can a group of villagers actually stop a very determined - though temporarily down one member - SG1? All that needed to be done was Teal’c firing his staff weapon into the air to frighten them into backing off.

Shortly after allowing Jack to be led away by Kynthia, the villagers start falling to the ground asleep. And they apparently don’t have any trouble gathering in a room with a couple who has been making love, and falling asleep around them - to Jack’s amazement.

Soon after, the rest of the team finds Jack stumbling around wrapped only in a bedspread. Sam seems quite unamused by the situation. Disappointed in him, maybe? Upset about what happened to him? Daniel and Teal’c seem more curious than upset.

It’s been discussed many times that this was akin to Jack being raped. I don’t disagree. However, given this is the apparent custom of The Chosen, it was undoubtedly assumed by them that anyone coming to their village would know the customs and in accepting the “cake”, would be aware of the consequences. Kynthia did say that because Jack ate the “marriage cake” that by all the customs of The Chosen they were married - or, at least, she implied it. These people are so innocent and naïve, they don’t know any different.

Of course, Jack is not a happy camper when he finds out what happened to him, and immediately sets the team off to ask questions, find out answers and so forth.

The next morning, we find yet another strange and curious thing about The Chosen. They age extremely rapidly; this is discovered when they find that the day old baby is now a toddler.

The rest of the episode is devoted to the team finding answers, and a continuingly aging Jack spending time with Kynthia and the villagers, and Jack informing the villagers they’ve been nothing more than a bunch of lab rats. Was this the right thing for him to do? It was like using a hammer on innocent little bunnies.

We also see the lengths General Hammond will take in order to keep earth safe, right or wrong. The team is all for trying some way to save Jack, while Hammond refuses them, and in effect leaves Jack behind (even though Jack would understand his reasons).

Jack ages very quickly in this episode, and his personality changes overly quickly to correspond to the aging. His attitude changes over what ought to be based on a lifetime of experiences, but he doesn’t have those experiences to base the attitude change on. He just has Kynthia’s little pearls of wisdom to go on, and at the end says what I don’t think Jack of any age would say: “Sweet Kynthia, I've learned so much from you. I'll treasure every day of my life because of you.” Makes him sound like a gushy, sentimental old man, instead of the crotchety one he’d been up to that point. As we see in future episodes, Jack doesn’t become that man that cherishes every moment of his life.


Shippy bits:

None on Jack’s part that I noticed. He was too busy being drugged and seduced by Kynthia, ordering the team to find answers, and then turning into a rapidly aging, crotchety old man.

For Sam, nothing really until Jack starts acting strangely, giggling, and being led off by Kynthia. Not long later, when they find him wrapped in a bedspread, even the tone of Sam’s voice changes when addressing him. I’m sure she’s disappointed in him; though that undoubtedly changes when she discovers he’s been drugged and infested with nanites.


Little things of interest:

1. Jack said he was a 40-year old man, when according to later episodes (and his birthdate) it would seem he’s actually several years older.

2. Daniel refers to Sam as “Carter” a few times during this episode.

3. In the scene where Sam is explaining how many days there are in a year, Jack rudely interrupts her and abruptly tells her to “let’s keep this simple”, and she glares at him. I think any feelings of intimidation about him are long gone by now, if there ever were any.

4. In the scene in the courtyard where Jack collapses and Sam is holding him in her arms, we have a scene that is later duplicated in “Divide & Conquer” when Sam is holding the now dead Martouf in her arms on the floor of the gate room. Except one lives and one dies.

5. Jack is seen starting a letter to Sara, but doesn’t get past “Dear Sara”. I wonder what he would have said to her had he been able to put it into words. He also refers to her as his ex-wife, which suggests that they are now definitely divorced.

6. When he’s through reviewing the video from the SGC explaining why the team isn’t coming back, he hits the rewind button; the whirring can be heard. Wonder how many times he did that or had already done it prior to the viewing we saw.

7. Did Jack spend the majority of his time sitting in that chair surrounded by red pillows in the room with Pelops? Reminds me of all those Gou’ald lords and ladies who seem to do nothing more than sit in big throne chairs and look bored. Though, to be fair, he did change his seating arrangement briefly to sit at the top of the steps to stare at the gate.

8. When Kynthia asks Jack if he will live the rest of his days without making love, and he replies he hopes not. But it takes another couple of years before he actually does that. And after that, another 4-5 years.

9. Nice to see that Teal’c actually got something important to do in this episode when he figured out the combination just as Daniel was explaining what a combination was. And then being able to help translate what was on the tablet.

10. Kynthia is quite possessive towards the end. When walking back to the fountain, Jack has an arm looped through Kynthia's and the other through Sam's arm. Kynthia quickly inserts herself between Jack and Sam and all but pushes Sam away. Kynthia acts as though she's protecting her property.

[Nynaeve506]

Well to be fair to Kynthia, she probably did think of Jack as 'hers' - this is the way they've always done things.

The two pieces (and I know I'm playing with fire) that have always bugged me about this episode:

1. Why have they not set any guidelines on food consumption? Even the most basic traveler in the US knows not to drink the water in certain countries so why would eating food on a foreign planet with organisms you know nothing about be okay?! I mean, I get it, there's going to be a natural swapping of ecological type things anyway, but this is one of the many uses of MREs - which while not gourmet by any stretch of the imagination is at the very least SAFE...

2. The double standard of 'date rape' in television culture...

Spoiler:

Look, if they had played it as Sam getting drugged and being 'seduced' by a guy, we would have, rightly, been screaming about how she was raped. The story line would have probably played out differently. Jack on the other hand, it's like "Oh look, he just got a nice looking chick to drug him and have her way with him..." Normally I don't get into issues like this because I think that there are certain groups who take this kind of thing too far - but the reality is that most women have come into contact with or been the victim of being taken against their will. I found this entire episode shameful in this regard. It's probably my least favorite. I'm not saying we should have had an episode of Jack agonizing over being raped - I can understand that they're saying this is a different culture and these are a bunch of naive people who know that it is their baking in their cakes before handing them out and everyone knows what they're eating before they start - but it irks me anyway. Maybe I'm wrong on this so that's why I put it in spoilers. Because BAH - I just would have written the story differently.