Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by leiasky View Post
    You've never seen that scene?!?

    whyyyyy?

    It's pretty close to a shippy squee moment . . .
    It's not canon and it ticked me off royally when they yanked it. I probably won't ever watch it until after I see the closing credits of the third movie and feel like I can forgive them!

    Grr.

    Comment


      Originally posted by VSS View Post
      It's not canon and it ticked me off royally when they yanked it. I probably won't ever watch it until after I see the closing credits of the third movie and feel like I can forgive them!

      Grr.
      Aww, it not being canon is a matter of opinion.

      It wasn't cut because of content, it was cut because of time. They had every intention of putting it IN the episode. That's canon enough for me.

      It really is a lovely not so subtle shippy moment. You've GOT to see it! The look on Sam's face . . . It did make me squee a leetlee bit. And I don't squee. Ever.
      sigpic
      Thanks to Oma-1 for the beautiful banner!

      Comment


        Originally posted by leiasky View Post
        Aww, it not being canon is a matter of opinion.

        It wasn't cut because of content, it was cut because of time. They had every intention of putting it IN the episode. That's canon enough for me.

        It really is a lovely not so subtle shippy moment. You've GOT to see it! The look on Sam's face . . . It did make me squee a leetlee bit. And I don't squee. Ever.
        Is it on the extra's of SGA season 4??? Which extras?

        Can someone help to understand 'canon'? I know that canon is what has been stated in an ep/shown in an ep etc. So the S/J angst/ship became canon in There But For The Grace Of God because it was an AU relationship? Or did it become canon when TPTB implied it in several episodes (D&C etc)? Or am I waaaaaaaaaaaaay off?
        sigpic

        Comment


          Originally posted by Toomi View Post
          Is it on the extra's of SGA season 4??? Which extras?


          It's a deleted scene from 'Trio' and is on the disk with all the other deleted scenes from SGA season 4.

          Can someone help to understand 'canon'? I know that canon is what has been stated in an ep/shown in an ep etc. So the S/J angst/ship became canon in There But For The Grace Of God because it was an AU relationship? Or did it become canon when TPTB implied it in several episodes (D&C etc)? Or am I waaaaaaaaaaaaay off?
          Everyone has a different opinion of what 'canon' is. Some insist that canon is only what was filmed and shown in the aired episode.

          The blind choose not to think there is a s/j ship at all so in their minds there is nothing 'canon' about it. I, personally, don't think we were watching the same series if they can't see it, but, they're entitled to their own opinions

          My reason for believing the deleted Trio scene is canon was listed in a previous post. Not everyone shares it.
          sigpic
          Thanks to Oma-1 for the beautiful banner!

          Comment


            Originally posted by leiasky View Post
            It's a deleted scene from 'Trio' and is on the disk with all the other deleted scenes from SGA season 4.



            Everyone has a different opinion of what 'canon' is. Some insist that canon is only what was filmed and shown in the aired episode.

            The blind choose not to think there is a s/j ship at all so in their minds there is nothing 'canon' about it. I, personally, don't think we were watching the same series if they can't see it, but, they're entitled to their own opinions

            My reason for believing the deleted Trio scene is canon was listed in a previous post. Not everyone shares it.

            Ah, ok. Well, in that case I think I agree with you. It was filmed and intended to be in the episode and only pulled for time. It wasn't as though it was an idea tossed around in the writers room and never made it to the script or acting part.
            sigpic

            Comment


              I was thankful that we at least got to see it on the deleted scenes…it was the first thing I went to as soon as I got the boxset. I wish the seasons of SG1 had of come with deleted scenes *pouts*
              The whole ‘is it canon’ argument does my head in…to make it easy I’d like to believe whatever was in episode and only the episode should be considered canon…but in my own shippy heart I believe that it happened, regardless of it not making the final cut and all. I still saw it with my own two eyes. So I do believe its canon…just because…I do.
              Last edited by Amaunet; 06 April 2009, 05:23 PM. Reason: Because I spelt ‘canon’ with two ‘n’s and it was getting on my nerves just looking at it
              sigpic

              Comment


                Okay, I tend to lurk here, but I had to put in my way-too-long 2 cents on the canon issue.

                In most fandom circles I've been in, Canon is whatever you see occur before you in the intact and released versions of the film or TV show you are watching, or the publication of the book/short story you are reading. Book make into a movie can both be canon to the source and tends to get called movie!canon book!canon. Alternate universes, alternate timelines, all canon if you can read/watch it in the source. (AT and AU becomes insane for comic fandoms).

                Then, there are personal canons, which is what one person might decide from pulling clues out of the canon and from adding things the writer/actor might say about the character. This is where you'd develop a lot of your fanon ideas, from an actor interview or a chunk of script that never made it in or stuff off a cutting room floor (and I don't mean things that are cut afterword for commercial time or something.

                If it was in the original, it's canon. If it's an easter egg on a disc that's never eventually incorporated into an extended version, it's not canon). It's not canon where everyone would accept it across the board, but it can be included in your personal canon/fanon. Just be prepared for people to remind you it's not official canon. The reason for the distinction is because once you start claiming one cut scene/paragraph as canon, all of them must be counted; you just can't pick and choose from the ones you like.

                Then there is authorial/director intent, which is what the writer might have intended for a character, or what he/she hoped got across to the screen to you. You might watch a scene and think "X" happened, and then in a commentary hear that the author/director was trying to insinuate "Y" happens. This is an area where a lot of discussion and ambiguity comes in, especially with shipping characters or for anti-hero type characters.

                **
                So for the purpose of this thread, say there's a scene in an episode where Jack and Sam kind of bump their knees together under the briefing room table during some discussion. The scene is obviously canon. The commentary might say, "hey, this is where they're flirting right in front of Hammond, see that?" That part is the authorial intent that might not come across to everyone, but can be pulled into your personal canon and be totally valid, but can also be discounted as not canon.

                I might see it as a scene of cute flirting, Bob might see it as their chairs are close, no biggie. Both are correct. Then there's word of a cut scene right afterward where Sam says, "screw this waiting," and throws Jack across the table and jumps him in front of everyone. A fanfic author could totally play with it, the actors might talk about it and joke around about it, and maybe it's even filmed and put on the DVD extras. It doesn't make it canon, but makes something fun to play with in your personal fanon or for iconing purposes - hee! But it can't be canon because then you'd have to count the scene shot, cut, and added to the DVD later where Teal'c and Hammond start comparing scalp moisturizers for bald and beautiful men. Can't count one and ignore the other as unarguable canon, but can totally add it to your personal canon.
                **


                Hope that helps! I've been active in a lot of fandoms over the years and this is about the standard I've taken from them. And now my big ol' fan glossary lesson is over, hope that helped anyone confused and didn't confuse more!
                sigpic Heliosphere- multi-shipper, multi-thunker

                Comment


                  Originally posted by heliosphere View Post
                  Okay, I tend to lurk here, but I had to put in my way-too-long 2 cents on the canon issue.

                  Spoiler:
                  In most fandom circles I've been in, Canon is whatever you see occur before you in the intact and released versions of the film or TV show you are watching, or the publication of the book/short story you are reading. Book make into a movie can both be canon to the source and tends to get called movie!canon book!canon. Alternate universes, alternate timelines, all canon if you can read/watch it in the source. (AT and AU becomes insane for comic fandoms).

                  Then, there are personal canons, which is what one person might decide from pulling clues out of the canon and from adding things the writer/actor might say about the character. This is where you'd develop a lot of your fanon ideas, from an actor interview or a chunk of script that never made it in or stuff off a cutting room floor (and I don't mean things that are cut afterword for commercial time or something.

                  If it was in the original, it's canon. If it's an easter egg on a disc that's never eventually incorporated into an extended version, it's not canon). It's not canon where everyone would accept it across the board, but it can be included in your personal canon/fanon. Just be prepared for people to remind you it's not official canon. The reason for the distinction is because once you start claiming one cut scene/paragraph as canon, all of them must be counted; you just can't pick and choose from the ones you like.

                  Then there is authorial/director intent, which is what the writer might have intended for a character, or what he/she hoped got across to the screen to you. You might watch a scene and think "X" happened, and then in a commentary hear that the author/director was trying to insinuate "Y" happens. This is an area where a lot of discussion and ambiguity comes in, especially with shipping characters or for anti-hero type characters.

                  **
                  So for the purpose of this thread, say there's a scene in an episode where Jack and Sam kind of bump their knees together under the briefing room table during some discussion. The scene is obviously canon. The commentary might say, "hey, this is where they're flirting right in front of Hammond, see that?" That part is the authorial intent that might not come across to everyone, but can be pulled into your personal canon and be totally valid, but can also be discounted as not canon.

                  I might see it as a scene of cute flirting, Bob might see it as their chairs are close, no biggie. Both are correct. Then there's word of a cut scene right afterward where Sam says, "screw this waiting," and throws Jack across the table and jumps him in front of everyone. A fanfic author could totally play with it, the actors might talk about it and joke around about it, and maybe it's even filmed and put on the DVD extras. It doesn't make it canon, but makes something fun to play with in your personal fanon or for iconing purposes - hee! But it can't be canon because then you'd have to count the scene shot, cut, and added to the DVD later where Teal'c and Hammond start comparing scalp moisturizers for bald and beautiful men. Can't count one and ignore the other as unarguable canon, but can totally add it to your personal canon.
                  **


                  Hope that helps! I've been active in a lot of fandoms over the years and this is about the standard I've taken from them. And now my big ol' fan glossary lesson is over, hope that helped anyone confused and didn't confuse more!
                  Spoiler:



                  Yeah. What she said. I think. This is why I need all of you deep thinkers around for this re-watch because I'm sort of a hit-and-run commentator, myself.

                  And this is a timely discussion because tomorrow we can talk about whether Stargate the movie is canon! Because it's time for the:


                  Thanks, Oma!


                  Discussion starts tomorrow 1200 EST with Stargate the movie and Children of the Gods. There will be no real-time viewing so drop by when you can.
                  Last edited by VSS; 07 April 2009, 11:26 AM.

                  Comment


                    Spoiler:
                    Originally posted by heliosphere View Post
                    Okay, I tend to lurk here, but I had to put in my way-too-long 2 cents on the canon issue.

                    In most fandom circles I've been in, Canon is whatever you see occur before you in the intact and released versions of the film or TV show you are watching, or the publication of the book/short story you are reading. Book make into a movie can both be canon to the source and tends to get called movie!canon book!canon. Alternate universes, alternate timelines, all canon if you can read/watch it in the source. (AT and AU becomes insane for comic fandoms).

                    Then, there are personal canons, which is what one person might decide from pulling clues out of the canon and from adding things the writer/actor might say about the character. This is where you'd develop a lot of your fanon ideas, from an actor interview or a chunk of script that never made it in or stuff off a cutting room floor (and I don't mean things that are cut afterword for commercial time or something.

                    If it was in the original, it's canon. If it's an easter egg on a disc that's never eventually incorporated into an extended version, it's not canon). It's not canon where everyone would accept it across the board, but it can be included in your personal canon/fanon. Just be prepared for people to remind you it's not official canon. The reason for the distinction is because once you start claiming one cut scene/paragraph as canon, all of them must be counted; you just can't pick and choose from the ones you like.

                    Then there is authorial/director intent, which is what the writer might have intended for a character, or what he/she hoped got across to the screen to you. You might watch a scene and think "X" happened, and then in a commentary hear that the author/director was trying to insinuate "Y" happens. This is an area where a lot of discussion and ambiguity comes in, especially with shipping characters or for anti-hero type characters.

                    **
                    So for the purpose of this thread, say there's a scene in an episode where Jack and Sam kind of bump their knees together under the briefing room table during some discussion. The scene is obviously canon. The commentary might say, "hey, this is where they're flirting right in front of Hammond, see that?" That part is the authorial intent that might not come across to everyone, but can be pulled into your personal canon and be totally valid, but can also be discounted as not canon.

                    I might see it as a scene of cute flirting, Bob might see it as their chairs are close, no biggie. Both are correct. Then there's word of a cut scene right afterward where Sam says, "screw this waiting," and throws Jack across the table and jumps him in front of everyone. A fanfic author could totally play with it, the actors might talk about it and joke around about it, and maybe it's even filmed and put on the DVD extras. It doesn't make it canon, but makes something fun to play with in your personal fanon or for iconing purposes - hee! But it can't be canon because then you'd have to count the scene shot, cut, and added to the DVD later where Teal'c and Hammond start comparing scalp moisturizers for bald and beautiful men. Can't count one and ignore the other as unarguable canon, but can totally add it to your personal canon.
                    **


                    Hope that helps! I've been active in a lot of fandoms over the years and this is about the standard I've taken from them. And now my big ol' fan glossary lesson is over, hope that helped anyone confused and didn't confuse more!



                    Spoilered for space only

                    Very well thought out and articulate post but I have to respectfully disagree with it.

                    Everyone is welcome to their own opinion and definition of canon.
                    sigpic
                    Thanks to Oma-1 for the beautiful banner!

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by leiasky View Post
                      Everyone has a different opinion of what 'canon' is. Some insist that canon is only what was filmed and shown in the aired episode.

                      The blind choose not to think there is a s/j ship at all so in their minds there is nothing 'canon' about it. I, personally, don't think we were watching the same series if they can't see it, but, they're entitled to their own opinions

                      My reason for believing the deleted Trio scene is canon was listed in a previous post. Not everyone shares it.
                      For me, the Sam/Jack ship is canon because of the wonderful job Joel Goldsmith did with the scoring. If you listen, during "shippy" moments in the shows, THERE IS A SAM JACK THEME SONG. I was really excited to find that out. Joel is a shipper, and because the music is canon, the ship is canon for me. I went all the way back to Entity, and sure enough, as Jack stands stoically by Sam's body on life support, there's the theme song. It gives me shivers.



                      Originally posted by Amaunet View Post
                      I was thankful that we at least got to see it on the deleted scenes…it was the first thing I went to as soon as I got the boxset. I wish the seasons of SG1 had of come with deleted scenes *pouts*
                      The whole ‘is it canon’ argument does my head in…to make it easy I’d like to believe whatever was in episode and only the episode should be considered canon…but in my own shippy heart I believe that it happened, regardless of it not making the final cut and all. I still saw it with my own two eyes. So I do believe its canon…just because…I do.
                      Yeah, I really really wish they'd just left that scene in the show so there wouldn't be any canon debates. I tend to take it as canon because I saw it with my own two eyes. It was filmed! But I know deep down that it's not "officially" canon because it didn't air with the episode in its entirety. I like to ignore that little voice of reason.

                      Originally posted by heliosphere View Post
                      Okay, I tend to lurk here, but I had to put in my way-too-long 2 cents on the canon issue.

                      (Spoiler for length only)
                      Spoiler:
                      In most fandom circles I've been in, Canon is whatever you see occur before you in the intact and released versions of the film or TV show you are watching, or the publication of the book/short story you are reading. Book make into a movie can both be canon to the source and tends to get called movie!canon book!canon. Alternate universes, alternate timelines, all canon if you can read/watch it in the source. (AT and AU becomes insane for comic fandoms).

                      Then, there are personal canons, which is what one person might decide from pulling clues out of the canon and from adding things the writer/actor might say about the character. This is where you'd develop a lot of your fanon ideas, from an actor interview or a chunk of script that never made it in or stuff off a cutting room floor (and I don't mean things that are cut afterword for commercial time or something.

                      If it was in the original, it's canon. If it's an easter egg on a disc that's never eventually incorporated into an extended version, it's not canon). It's not canon where everyone would accept it across the board, but it can be included in your personal canon/fanon. Just be prepared for people to remind you it's not official canon. The reason for the distinction is because once you start claiming one cut scene/paragraph as canon, all of them must be counted; you just can't pick and choose from the ones you like.

                      Then there is authorial/director intent, which is what the writer might have intended for a character, or what he/she hoped got across to the screen to you. You might watch a scene and think "X" happened, and then in a commentary hear that the author/director was trying to insinuate "Y" happens. This is an area where a lot of discussion and ambiguity comes in, especially with shipping characters or for anti-hero type characters.

                      **
                      So for the purpose of this thread, say there's a scene in an episode where Jack and Sam kind of bump their knees together under the briefing room table during some discussion. The scene is obviously canon. The commentary might say, "hey, this is where they're flirting right in front of Hammond, see that?" That part is the authorial intent that might not come across to everyone, but can be pulled into your personal canon and be totally valid, but can also be discounted as not canon.

                      I might see it as a scene of cute flirting, Bob might see it as their chairs are close, no biggie. Both are correct. Then there's word of a cut scene right afterward where Sam says, "screw this waiting," and throws Jack across the table and jumps him in front of everyone. A fanfic author could totally play with it, the actors might talk about it and joke around about it, and maybe it's even filmed and put on the DVD extras. It doesn't make it canon, but makes something fun to play with in your personal fanon or for iconing purposes - hee! But it can't be canon because then you'd have to count the scene shot, cut, and added to the DVD later where Teal'c and Hammond start comparing scalp moisturizers for bald and beautiful men. Can't count one and ignore the other as unarguable canon, but can totally add it to your personal canon.
                      **


                      Hope that helps! I've been active in a lot of fandoms over the years and this is about the standard I've taken from them. And now my big ol' fan glossary lesson is over, hope that helped anyone confused and didn't confuse more!
                      Very good explanation of canon! I agree with a lot of it. Thanks for de-lurking. Feel free to do so anytime.

                      Originally posted by leiasky View Post
                      Everyone is welcome to their own opinion and definition of canon.
                      Aaaand that's the best part of fandom, IMHO. No hard and fast rules, love it or leave it, etc. It's what you want to make of it. I love it.

                      Originally posted by VSS View Post
                      [/SPOILERS]

                      Yeah. What she said. I think. This is why I need all of you deep thinkers around for this re-watch because I'm sort of a hit-and-run commentator, myself.

                      And this is a timely discussion because tomorrow we can talk about whether Stargate the movie is canon! Because it's time for the:


                      Thanks, Oma!


                      Discussion starts tomorrow 1200 EST with Stargate the movie and Children of the Gods. There will be no real-time viewing so drop by when you can.
                      Yes! I just picked up the original movie for the re-watch, and I know a LOT of it conflicts with show canon, especially when it comes to the science of stargate travel. I'm going to be head-desking a lot tonight, aren't I?

                      Also: Anyone who needs season 1 dvds for the re-watch, I saw seasons 1-5 at Wal*Mart today (as much as I loathe that store!) and they were under $15 per season!!!
                      sigpic
                      "A Serpent guard, a Horus guard and a Setesh guard meet on a neutral planet..."

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Sappho View Post
                        For me, the Sam/Jack ship is canon because of the wonderful job Joel Goldsmith did with the scoring. If you listen, during "shippy" moments in the shows, THERE IS A SAM JACK THEME SONG. I was really excited to find that out. Joel is a shipper, and because the music is canon, the ship is canon for me. I went all the way back to Entity, and sure enough, as Jack stands stoically by Sam's body on life support, there's the theme song. It gives me shivers.
                        Oh, this is such an excellent point! I've always thought about it that way, but never really could describe it quite that well.

                        Spoiler:
                        Did you know you can actually hear that in COntinuum when Jack dies? APA was able to pick it and sure enough, it's there.


                        And it's not just that song, but it's the use of all kinds of music to underscore what's going on. For instance, in 2010, when Jack kind of spits out that question about "...your dearly beloved ambassador?" the music comes up in such a dramatic way that there's no missing how bitter he is about that and what he means by that comment. I wish I could think of some other examples, but they're really all over the place. Which is why the little bits of incomplete sentences they use to communicate actually end up telling us a lot. It's the body language and the music. Hard to explain to people who don't perceive, it though.


                        Yes! I just picked up the original movie for the re-watch, and I know a LOT of it conflicts with show canon, especially when it comes to the science of stargate travel. I'm going to be head-desking a lot tonight, aren't I?

                        Also: Anyone who needs season 1 dvds for the re-watch, I saw seasons 1-5 at Wal*Mart today (as much as I loathe that store!) and they were under $15 per season!!!
                        As a matter of fact, the discrepancy with the gate addresses bothered me so much I actually had to put it in a fic! But I came up with a logical explanation (rationalization) for it. I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the science.

                        And, in case people don't have the DVDs, S1 of Stargate is on hulu.com

                        Comment



                          Thanks, Oma!


                          Welcome to the SG-1 Shipper Rewatch! As the name suggests, we’re going to do a rewatch of the series and all the movies in anticipation of the next movie. We’ll be focusing on Sam, Jack and the evolution of their relationship- but the discussion is by no means limited to that. Many of us were sci-fi fans long before we became enamored with Sam and Jack, and there’s much to love about Stargate!

                          We’ve all seen these eps before, so the posts are going to be comments and questions that come to mind as we watch the episodes, not summaries. Things not related to Sam and Jack are in spoilers so people can skip it if they wish. There are no real-time viewings scheduled, although people can certainly do them here if they would like to.

                          If you don’t have the Season 1 episodes and you live in the US they are available on hulu.com for free!

                          A big, huge thanks to the denizens of the S/J art thread for the banners and to Toomi for helping get this off the ground!

                          Here, again, is the schedule for season 1:

                          Schedule
                          April 8 Stargate the movie and Children of the Gods
                          April 10 The Enemy Within
                          April 13 Emancipation
                          April 15 The Broca Divide
                          April 17 The First Commandment
                          April 20 Cold Lazarus
                          April 22 The Nox and Brief Candle
                          April 24 Thor’s Hammer and The Torment of Tantalus
                          April 27 Bloodlines and Fire and Water
                          April 29 Hathor
                          May 1 Singularity and Cor-Ai
                          May 4 Enigma
                          May 6 Solitudes
                          May 8 Tin Man
                          May 11 There but for the Grace of God
                          May 13 Politics and Within the Serpent’s Grasp

                          Comment


                            Thanks, Oma!


                            Stargate (The Movie)
                            I found this on GW:
                            "The script was just awful, and that sort of intrigued me. ... Acting, for me, is a passion, but it's also a job, and I've always approached it as such. I have a certain manual-labourist view of acting. There's no shame in taking a film because you need some f---ing money."?(Actor James Spader, in an interview with The Globe and Mail)
                            James Spader is right. The script is awful- there’s nothing subtle about the Stargate movie. But it’s kind of like studying Archduke Ferdinand of Austria- you don’t really want to but without it you’re not going to understand what happens later on. Yesterday we were talking about how much of this is or isn't canon. I think whatever isn't directly contradicted by the series is canon. Or maybe it's what ever is actually confirmed? I’ll do a little more summarizing with this movie since many of you may not have seen it.

                            Favorite Scene: O’Neil turns around and sees that they’ve actually come out of the base of an enormous pyramid. We see this panoramic view again in CotG.

                            Favorite Line: DANIEL-I don't wanna die. Your men don't want to die. And these people here don't want to die. It's a shame you're in such a hurry to.

                            Spoiler:
                            The movie opens with a ha’tak setting down in Egypt, in 8000 B.C. (whoa- that’s still the Stone Age! Guess Ra didn’t need the pyramids for a landing pad after all) where Ra takes his host. Ra is not called a goa’uld in this movie and in the end we see that he not only has a weakened physical form but he looks like Thor and also transfers his consciousness like the Asgard! Why did TPTB change the goa’uld into parasitic snake -like creatures? I don’t know but I’m glad they did.

                            The scene shifts to Dr. Langford’s discovery of the Stargate in Egypt in the 1920’s. Little Catherine is with him and she takes her signature Egyptian necklace from a workbench. If that were now, the Egyptian Antiquities Authority would toss the little darling in jail within five minutes.

                            The scene then flashes forward to 1995 where we see Daniel (Spader) being ridiculed by his peers in a largely empty lecture hall. An elderly but still quite elegant Catherine offers him a job and off he goes, basically because he’s too broke to refuse.

                            He’s not told of the Stargate, but is only asked to decipher the writing on the coverstone. The problem is, no one has been able to dial the gate because they haven’t identified the last symbol, which he’s able to do once he figures out the glyphs are actually constellations and the last symbol is the point of origin.


                            Now they know they can make the gate work, and now they need Jack O’Neil. The first time we meet him is when he’s sitting on his son’s empty bed with a gun, mulling over whether he should put it to use again. The USAF evidently picks him out because they know he’s suicidal, as it appears he’s been given medical leave. The military isn‘t portrayed in a favorable light in this movie, but fortunately that changes in the series. O’Neil is played by Kurt Russell and is much more of a harda** than our Jack. As O’Neill said in Secrets, this guy has “One ‘L’ and no sense of humor.” Which is good because only someone with machismo can look tough wearing that beret! Interestingly, I found out that the Green Berets include Special Forces and Air Force SERE forces (and they really wear green berets). These are exceptionally tough, dedicated men and even though Jack seems more laid-back in the series, I don't think this attitude ever goes away. Every now and then it pops up again, like in The Other Side. Does this affect his relationship with Sam?

                            And are these two Jacks really different- or is O’Neil simply Jack at his lowest point- closed off from the world (including his wife) and suicidal? He’s sent through the gate with Daniel with orders to blow up the gate if there was any sign of danger. We don’t know it, but it’s to be a one-way trip for Jack. Daniel assures them he’ll be able to figure out the glyphs on the other gate, to which O’Neil replies “He’s full of sh**” Turns out Jack is more or less correct, and they’re stuck on Abydos.

                            There they meet Skaara, Kusuf (played by the same actors as in the series) and Sha’re. Jack has his last cigarette (both Jack and Sara smoked) and gives Skaara the lighter. I guess Jack thought one way or the other, he wasn’t going to need it very long, since he’s supposed to stay with the nuke and make sure it goes off. Which is entirely unnecessary but helps make the military look bad.

                            Sha’re helps Daniel find the set of glyphs they need to get home. Before they can do that, Ra returns and kidnaps Jack and Daniel.

                            Spoiler:
                            Against Ra's wishes, one of the guards kills Daniel- but he is resurrected in a sarcophagus. Better get used to it, Daniel!

                            Jaye Davison as the androgynous Ra is really a sight to behold and honestly, if you can rent it just to watch him, it’s worth it. None of the goa’uld theatrics even come close to this guy! But the child slaves really creep me out. I don’t like the implications.


                            Ra

                            Ferretti and Kawalski rally the villagers and Jack and Daniel escape, but in the melee Sha’re is killed. Daniel, knowing the uses of the sarcophagus, heals her while Ra is distracted by the fighting. Disgusted and stunned by his losses, Ra decides to depart.

                            At the last minute, Daniel refuses to go through the gate and leave Jack and the people of Abydos to their fate- unfortunately the evil USAF rigged the bomb so it couldn’t be disarmed. Daniel and Jack decide to ring the nuke up into Ra’s ha’tak that had just lifted off from Abydos. That’s why Jack ends up covering for Daniel in CotG. Daniel saves his life- but Daniel is also partially responsible for not blowing up the gate as planned.

                            The last scene shows Jack going home through the gate. “See you around, Dr. Jackson.” As I said- the writers were not subtle at all. At the very least, they had a sequel in mind.

                            Implications of this episode for Sam and Jack: Establishes Jack’s back-story including the death of his son and his subsequent deep depression, as well as his connection to Daniel and Skaara. Despite his grudging respect for Daniel at the end of the movie, I think this is how Jack acquires his dislike for scientists.
                            --------
                            Last edited by VSS; 08 April 2009, 09:48 AM.

                            Comment


                              Children of the Gods
                              When powerful aliens come through Earth's Stargate, Colonel Jack O'Neill, along with new team member scientist Captain Samantha Carter, returns to Abydos to retrieve Daniel Jackson, who has discovered that the alien transit system includes much more than the two planets. The dangerous implications of this discovery are underscored by the abduction of Jackson’s wife; and SG-1 is formed to deal with this stunning new threat to Earth.


                              Favorite quote: “Another fine day on Planet Kawalsky!”
                              Favorite scene: On the ramp at the start of SG-1’s first mission when Jack says, “Oh, I adore you already.” Even my 10 yo son looked up at me and said, “He does!”. I like the whole scene, though, including when he gets impatient with her and shoves her into the event horizon.


                              Thanks, Padme!


                              I haven’t watched any Stargate eps in a very long time and when the music started in, I thought, “Aw! I love this show.” Such a sentimental sap, I am! Joel Goldsmith did a wonderful job of adapting the original soundtrack. The music not only has more depth, it’s used much more effectively.

                              As you know, the aliens return and the USAF hauls Jack back in to find out why. I never noticed Jack has a computer on the roof (I guess I was always too busy looking at Jack)! It must be running Starry Night.

                              The infamous briefing room scene. I’ll let other shippers expound on that.

                              This episode establishes everyone’s back-story fairly well except Sam, mostly because she doesn’t say much after the serious sparks we see flying in the briefing room scene. I do not for one moment believe TPTB didn’t ship these two from the start- and when you throw in the “I adore you already” line it’s either extraordinarily prescient or carefully calculated. Either way works for me.

                              I do understand now why they introduced Jacob in the next season. Compared to the others, Sam didn’t have enough angst. It’s apparent from the first few episodes that there’s the real risk that the defining struggle for this character is going to be her relationship with Jack by default, because they didn’t give her anything else. It seems to me that they broadened her back-story to be a problem with personal attachments in general, but was that enough? Is that stereotypical or was it chosen deliberately to dovetail with Jack’s personal fears? What else might they have done?

                              Spoiler:
                              Another thing that is not clear to me is why Daniel uncovered the Abydos gate. He promised Jack he’d keep it buried, and if he’d kept that promise Sha’re wouldn’t have gone goa’uld. By then, he knew there were other gates, although we did not, and he was actively trying to dial out. I think curiosity once again got the better of Daniel, to the detriment of the people he was close to, and this is a theme that happens over and over. So, though no one ever comes right out and says it, Sha’re’s abduction is his fault. I wonder if he even realizes that. Is guilt part of his drive to find her?

                              In CotG, Sha’re truly seems like a bimbo. If she’d been more like she was in the movie, she’d have gone with Daniel to show Jack the glyphs. (But then she wouldn’t have been kidnapped). If you have only ever seen the SG-1 Sha’re it’s hard to know why Daniel fell in love with her. (BTW, MS’s imitation of James Spader is awesome to behold).


                              There’s a nice scene of Daniel at Jack’s house, and we find out that Jack and Sara have divorced over Charlie’s death. But it’s clear from the movie that it’s not just Charlie’s death- it’s also Jack’s reaction to it that contributes to the divorce, and given that he’s still got Sara and Charlie’s picture around in LC, I’m assuming she’s the one who divorced him. Is that going to affect how he reacts to Sam or any other woman?

                              And why did they rename Charlie? He was Tyler in the movie. Was it because of Charlie Kawalsky- to make him appear closer to Jack than he was in the movie? In the movie it seemed like they didn’t know each other at all. They weren’t that close were they? Or is it just another unfortunate slip up like the two Jonases and Sarah/Sara? I mean come on, at this point there’s hardly any canon to forget!

                              Spoiler:
                              Then SG-1 is off to track down Apophis and hopefully locate Skaara and Sha’re. Daniel once again gets them all in trouble and they’re tossed in the slammer where Skaara and the other captives are held- but it’s too late for Sha’re.
                              I finally understand the meaning of Teal’c’ grabbing Jack’s watch and then his famous words; “Many have said that. But you are the first I thought could actually do it.” It’s a collective “you”- as in Jack O’Neill and the rest of the people of earth. Finally, Teal’c has found a civilization with the technology, backbone and system of ethics that could challenge the goa’uld. He figures all of that out in just a few moments spent with Jack, Sam and Daniel! Daniel may understand human cultures, but don’t you think it’s Teal’c who understands human beings?


                              So, it’s only natural that Teal’c becomes the first shipper.

                              The final scene always makes me grin. Notice how all the male refugees gather around to thank Carter and the women head for Jack! And poor Kawalsky with the glowing eyes makes for a terrific ending- if that didn’t make people tune in next week, I don’t know what could have! (Well, yes I do. But they don’t know each other well enough for that, yet.)

                              Implications for Sam and Jack: Putting the movie together with the pilot, it’s obvious that Jack is emotionally damaged goods. And it’s also obvious that he’s able to cover that up extremely well. He seems to like his 2IC well enough and is willing to give her a chance, but that’s about it. Sam, on the other hand, seems to have a serious case of hero worship.

                              Comment


                                Ooh yay, it's started! I'll jump in...

                                Originally posted by VSS View Post
                                Stargate (The Movie)
                                I found this on GW:


                                James Spader is right. The script is awful- there’s nothing subtle about the Stargate movie. But it’s kind of like studying Archduke Ferdinand of Austria- you don’t really want to but without it you’re not going to understand what happens later on. Yesterday we were talking about how much of this is or isn't canon. I think whatever isn't directly contradicted by the series is canon. Or maybe it's what ever is actually confirmed? I’ll do a little more summarizing with this movie since many of you may not have seen it.
                                I'm with you on this, the movie now really is just showing you where it all started, but in terms of canon, is only partially accurate I guess - since if you're coming to it as an SG1 fan then you have to make the choice to value SG1 canon over movie canon (or accept that there are irreconcilable differences!). My feeling about the movie in general is that I appreciate it far more when I don't watch it, if that makes sense! In that I take the backstory as the starting point for SG1 and forget all the things that annoy me when I watch the movie - the different actors (Kurt Russell obviously being the big one, but Daniel and Kawalsky and Share and everyone else too) and all the things that SG1 contradicts (the form of the Goa'uld, the idea of Abydos being on the far side of the known universe, the not-quite-Jaffa...). Whenever I watch the movie all of this jars, frankly, and I spend the whole time going 'but that's not right!'.

                                Now they know they can make the gate work, and now they need Jack O’Neil. The first time we meet him is when he’s sitting on his son’s empty bed with a gun, mulling over whether he should put it to use again. The USAF evidently picks him out because they know he’s suicidal, as it appears he’s been given medical leave. The military isn‘t portrayed in a favorable light in this movie, but fortunately that changes in the series. O’Neil is played by Kurt Russell and is much more of a harda** than our Jack. As O’Neill said in Secrets, this guy has “One ‘L’ and no sense of humor.” Which is good because only someone with machismo can look tough wearing that beret! Interestingly, I found out that the Green Berets include Special Forces and Air Force SERE forces (and they really wear green berets). These are exceptionally tough, dedicated men and even though Jack seems more laid-back in the series, I don't think this attitude ever goes away. Every now and then it pops up again, like in The Other Side. Does this affect his relationship with Sam?

                                And are these two Jacks really different- or is O’Neil simply Jack at his lowest point- closed off from the world (including his wife) and suicidal? He’s sent through the gate with Daniel with orders to blow up the gate if there was any sign of danger. We don’t know it, but it’s to be a one-way trip for Jack. Daniel assures them he’ll be able to figure out the glyphs on the other gate, to which O’Neil replies “He’s full of sh**” Turns out Jack is more or less correct, and they’re stuck on Abydos.
                                The O'Neil/O'Neill difference is the one thing that I find hardest to reconcile when I watch the movie. O'Neil is not the Jack I know and love, and it's not just because he looks different, he just doesn't behave in the way Jack does. Having said that, I agree that the movie is showing us Jack at his lowest point, and you are right in that aspects of that side of Jack do come through on many occasions during SG1. So I buy that Jack is 'out of character' in the movie because he's in a particularly extreme situation. I like to think though that even at his lowest point Jack would still not be entirely without humour in that way, not be quite so dour! Compare how he is in Abyss, for example - we see time and time again that Jack uses humour as a defence mechanism. So I would expect to see some of that in the movie. There's one Jack-like line, the 'give my regards to King Tut, a******' line, that I can hear RDA's Jack saying, but otherwise nada. Again, much like I said above with how I happily accept the movie until I actually watch it, when the differences bug me, it's the same here. I can reconcile Russell's Jack with RDA's Jack on a conscious level, just as you say, until I watch him, when all I can think is that that's not Jack!

                                Spoiler:
                                Jaye Davison as the androgynous Ra is really a sight to behold and honestly, if you can rent it just to watch him, it’s worth it. None of the goa’uld theatrics even come close to this guy! But the child slaves really creep me out. I don’t like the implications.
                                Spoiler:
                                Totally with you there, on all points!


                                Originally posted by VSS View Post
                                [I]Children of the Gods
                                I haven’t watched any Stargate eps in a very long time and when the music started in, I thought, “Aw! I love this show.” Such a sentimental sap, I am! Joel Goldsmith did a wonderful job of adapting the original soundtrack. The music not only has more depth, it’s used much more effectively.
                                Absolutely! And this links exactly to the earlier discussion here about the S/J theme. The music throughout SG1 contributes to the meaning of the show, every bit as much as lighting and blocking and non-verbal acting - all enhance the written script. Just like only 10% of communication is verbal or whatever, so only a percentage of the whole meaning(s) conveyed by the show comes from the script itself.

                                The infamous briefing room scene. I’ll let other shippers expound on that.
                                *sigh* If you insist... Well it makes me cringe and also grin at the same time! First time I saw it I just cringed, nothing more. I spent the first few episodes first time around really not convinced about Sam - she comes in so one-dimensionally I think and I was really worried they were going to fall into the trap of the cliched uber-feminist. Thankfully once the series settled in a bit that didn't happen and she was allowed to develop into the fully-rounded character that she is. And I think it's because I know what Sam becomes that I now enjoy this scene (as well as still cringe a little, in memory). It is very Sam, the snark and the 'I can do anything' attitude. I love it now because I know that's part of her, but not all of her, if that makes sense. And obviously the sparks are most excellent

                                This episode establishes everyone’s back-story fairly well except Sam, mostly because she doesn’t say much after the serious sparks we see flying in the briefing room scene. I do not for one moment believe TPTB didn’t ship these two from the start- and when you throw in the “I adore you already” line it’s either extraordinarily prescient or carefully calculated. Either way works for me.
                                *nods* Exactly. On both points

                                I do understand now why they introduced Jacob in the next season. Compared to the others, Sam didn’t have enough angst. It’s apparent from the first few episodes that there’s the real risk that the defining struggle for this character is going to be her relationship with Jack by default, because they didn’t give her anything else. It seems to me that they broadened her back-story to be a problem with personal attachments in general, but was that enough? Is that stereotypical or was it chosen deliberately to dovetail with Jack’s personal fears? What else might they have done?
                                I think it was all part of establishing Sam as a three-dimensional character. I don't know, but I don't get the feeling that it's deliberately to dovetail with Jack's fears, so much as being part of the fact that Sam and Jack do complement each other - so I guess deliberate inasmuch as Sam complements Jack in many ways. But I think this is arguably one of the biggest successes of the Sam/Jack relationship, that they take what begins in a relatively cliched manner (the sparks and the conflict), and manage to show that this isn't just a case of hero and heroine and tension until they give in, and create a love story between two people who are not perfect, but who understand each other and connect on a level beyond superficialities.

                                Spoiler:
                                Another thing that is not clear to me is why Daniel uncovered the Abydos gate. He promised Jack he’d keep it buried, and if he’d kept that promise Sha’re wouldn’t have gone goa’uld. By then, he knew there were other gates, although we did not, and he was actively trying to dial out. I think curiosity once again got the better of Daniel, to the detriment of the people he was close to, and this is a theme that happens over and over. So, though no one ever comes right out and says it, Sha’re’s abduction is his fault. I wonder if he even realizes that. Is guilt part of his drive to find her?
                                Spoiler:
                                Ooh this is a very good point, not a connection I'd made before But yes I think you're exactly right, and it is one of Daniel's recurring flaws - his curiosity gets the better of him. But it's one of the things that makes SG1 work so well as a team. There's that balance between curiosity and caution - I'm thinking particularly as an example in Entity, where Daniel and Sam want to communicate with the entity, and Jack and Teal'c want to blow it up just in case.


                                There’s a nice scene of Daniel at Jack’s house, and we find out that Jack and Sara have divorced over Charlie’s death. But it’s clear from the movie that it’s not just Charlie’s death- it’s also Jack’s reaction to it that contributes to the divorce, and given that he’s still got Sara and Charlie’s picture around in LC, I’m assuming she’s the one who divorced him. Is that going to affect how he reacts to Sam or any other woman?
                                I think that the pictures, and the lingering on of the Sara and Charlie storyline, subconsciously plant the idea of Jack as a very loyal man, and one who might not love easily but certainly doesn't give that up easily either. It's all perfectly in keeping with his character, and also in keeping with the way Sam and Jack's relationship develops. The loyalty and devotion, and the fear of being hurt again like he was in the past, all are clear to see throughout.

                                Spoiler:
                                I finally understand the meaning of Teal’c’ grabbing Jack’s watch and then his famous words; “Many have said that. But you are the first I thought could actually do it.” It’s a collective “you”- as in Jack O’Neill and the rest of the people of earth. Finally, Teal’c has found a civilization with the technology, backbone and system of ethics that could challenge the goa’uld. He figures all of that out in just a few moments spent with Jack, Sam and Daniel! Daniel may understand human cultures, but don’t you think it’s Teal’c who understands human beings?


                                So, it’s only natural that Teal’c becomes the first shipper.
                                Oh well done, that's a fabulous distinction! I've often tried to pin down why it is I feel that Teal'c is the one who's really clued in to Sam and Jack's feelings, even more than Daniel. Daniel almost gets so fascinated by how people work that he forgets to notice how a person does.
                                sigpic
                                Artwork for All | Sig & avi by JadedWraith

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X