Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Luvnjoe]

I've been thinking about this (perhaps too much!) and you gotta wonder why Brad Wright removed that scene from Trio. As Joe Mallozzi's hinted, I suspect that BW wants these two to come together under BW's terms.

Now, do I think they've been dating? Probably. But even within that Trio scene, Sam seems hesitant to admit who she's dating. This makes me suspect that Sam and Jack are keeping things under wraps. Knowing Jack's character as well as we do, I have to wonder if he's uncomfortable with either a) people getting the wrong idea because he doesn't want Sam's career questioned, or b) his own insecurities due to his past with Sara and how that blew up in his face.

So again, yes - I think they're dating. But no, I don't think they're 'together' in the soulful way they should be. And quite frankly, that's good, IMHO. I want that final connection to happen in front of my eyes (i.e. on screen in the 3rd film). I want to SEE Jack make the final realization of just how important the two of them are to him, to her (and heck! to us, too!). I want Teal'c to nudge him, I want Daniel to not know and then I want to see his happy surprise when he finds out. In other words, I want to see the discovery.

Otherwise, all the fun of this amazing duo is just gone.

Again, this is just my opinion. For what it's worth.

Martin Gero directed that ep and he cut it out, not BW.

[digitalred93]

Martin Gero directed that ep and he cut it out, not BW.

Actually, the way television works is the director makes his cut and then the executive producers do the final cut. I've seen comments supporting Gero cutting the scene for length but I've also seen mention that Wright cut it because he wants control of the Sam/Jack storyline.

But even if that scene was kept in, doesn't Sam's explanation seem hesitant - she's keeping things under wraps for some reason. Why?

[Luvnjoe]

Actually, the way television works is the director makes his cut and then the executive producers do the final cut. I've seen comments supporting Gero cutting the scene for length but I've also seen mention that Wright cut it because he wants control of the Sam/Jack storyline.

But even if that scene was kept in, doesn't Sam's explanation seem hesitant - she's keeping things under wraps for some reason. Why?

I always took it to be a "Oh crap, I've said too much" moment. Jack and Sam are both fairly private people. If, as she says, Jack hasn't retired yet, eyebrows could raise. Besides, this is a subordinate... I doubt Sam really feels comfortable sharing her personal life with Keller.

[digitalred93]

If, as she says, Jack hasn't retired yet, eyebrows could raise. Besides, this is a subordinate... I doubt Sam really feels comfortable sharing her personal life with Keller.

Right, but as SGU spoilers indicate,

Spoiler:

he's not retiring anytime soon.

Which leads me to wonder just how much 'confirmation' there can be in this 3rd film.

[Luvnjoe]

Right, but as SGU spoilers indicate,

Spoiler:

he's not retiring anytime soon.

Which leads me to wonder just how much 'confirmation' there can be in this 3rd film.

But

Spoiler:

Universe doesn't necessarily take place after SGA. I thought I read somewhere that it may take place within the same time frame...that was not recently, though, so I guess I'm not sure what they're planning now.

[digitalred93]

Now THAT's interesting. I didn't know that. It'll be interesting to see where the film and the new series fit in the timeline. I have a hard time, however, believing that BW will retire Jack O'Neill any time soon. Jack's really the patriarch of the entire franchise.

Of course, I'm still keen on the idea kicked around on here of Sam being taken by some enemy (if it was me writing the thing, it would be the Aschen since the film releases in 2010 - how much more poetic can you get!).

Really, this waiting gets excruciating!

[VSS]

I can't stress enough how much I hope the 3rd movie will not be a "getting together" one! I really hope they got together soon after "Threads" during S8/S9 hiatus; if they did not then they're truly idiots...

I have to agree with you there- I seem to remember that TPTB said that a few months went by between the end of season 8 and the start of season 9. Usually, the time frame they stick with is 2-3 weeks between episodes. So there would have been plenty of time to work things out and as one wise poster said somewhere on GW the regs don't exist to make people miserable. If they're in a relationship, that could be worked out going forward.

But in a practical sense I'll be irked because all the hints TPTB have given that indicate they're together. I haven't felt all that jerked around up until this point (unlike some shippers who have been around forever) but I will if that's the way they want to write it.

Actually, the way television works is the director makes his cut and then the executive producers do the final cut. I've seen comments supporting Gero cutting the scene for length but I've also seen mention that Wright cut it because he wants control of the Sam/Jack storyline.

But even if that scene was kept in, doesn't Sam's explanation seem hesitant - she's keeping things under wraps for some reason. Why?

I've never actually seen that Trio scene but I did see MG talking about it. And it sounded fishy to me, like other considerations went into it besides the length of the segment. COnsidering the press it had already gotten, there had to be big, big reasons for it to be cut.

I always took it to be a "Oh crap, I've said too much" moment. Jack and Sam are both fairly private people. If, as she says, Jack hasn't retired yet, eyebrows could raise. Besides, this is a subordinate... I doubt Sam really feels comfortable sharing her personal life with Keller.

Yes, I agree with this. Remember Jack didn't want his relationship with Kerry known, either. Although, that might have been because he didn't want Sam to find out but I think there was more to it than that. And eyebrows could raise- even in the private world most people don't want to let on that they're sleeping with the boss.

I also agree about the subordinate/superior thing. It's lonely at the top. I don't see s superior officer sharing much with someone in her command, either.

Now THAT's interesting. I didn't know that. It'll be interesting to see where the film and the new series fit in the timeline. I have a hard time, however, believing that BW will retire Jack O'Neill any time soon. Jack's really the patriarch of the entire franchise.

Of course, I'm still keen on the idea kicked around on here of Sam being taken by some enemy (if it was me writing the thing, it would be the Aschen since the film releases in 2010 - how much more poetic can you get!).

Really, this waiting gets excruciating!

I thought that the events of SGU take place right after EatG. They've always run a contemporary timeline, more or less. Wasn't that why

Spoiler:

The Odyssey was on a secret mission?

I thought it was cool how they worked COntinuum into the whole thing.

I agree about the Aschen. I told my husband I'm getting Aschen on my license plate. I have a silver car and I just want it there through 2010- so if you're a stargate fan you'd get it and if you're not you'd think it was just a play on the car color. He thinks I'm crazy. But

Spoiler:

BW already said there are no Aschen in the movie.

[digitalred93]

Spoiler:

BW already said there are no Aschen in the movie.

Hadn't heard that - disappointing, to be honest. Ah well.

I think the bottom line upon which we can all agree is that if we only get a 'look' in this 3rd film, there's gonna be a riot. Something critical has to happen DURING the film which connects us to the characters and in turn, gives us some sense of a major step forward in their relationship.

ETA - love the idea about the license plate/car! Take photos!

[leiasky]

As excited as I was to hear Amanda's Q&A answers and her support of 'something' going on between Jack and Sam, I am more that a little concerned that everything hinders on Jack 'retiring'. He doesn't have to retire for them to be involved and I'm hoping the AF advisers for the show don't insist that has to be the case. Because, I don't see Jack retiring any time soon and it is completely obvious 'something' has been going on based on little hints over the years.

I don't want TPTB to completely negate all that has come before for them. I also don't want them to have 'just gotten together' in the 3rd movie, because I just won't believe it. Something changed after Threads, and it was obvious.

[VSS]

As excited as I was to hear Amanda's Q&A answers and her support of 'something' going on between Jack and Sam, I am more that a little concerned that everything hinders on Jack 'retiring'. He doesn't have to retire for them to be involved and I'm hoping the AF advisers for the show don't insist that has to be the case. Because, I don't see Jack retiring any time soon and it is completely obvious 'something' has been going on based on little hints over the years.

I don't want TPTB to completely negate all that has come before for them. I also don't want them to have 'just gotten together' in the 3rd movie, because I just won't believe it. Something changed after Threads, and it was obvious.

Yeah, I didn't like it,either. That was what was behind my little tirade yesterday about moving the goalposts. Since when does he have to be retired? Where did that meme come from? The Trio scene?

That would be completely unbelievable both within the story as written and if it were real life. No one is going to wait that long- I don't care if it was Jack O'Neill himself I wouldn't wait for 10 years! They're not monks, FCOL, and they aren't around each other much anymore- to even have a hope of maintaining this relationship they'd have to put in the effort or they'd just drift apart. And find someone else.

And it would turn Threads into D&C Part II- basically meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Really, though, I think it's just AT's stating her preference, not what's likely to happen. I think the writers are perfectly capable of integrating their relationship into the story without alienating the USAF. Especially since everyone I've talked with who has actually been IN the service says it should be possible.

[JenniferJF]

Really, though, I think it's just AT's stating her preference, not what's likely to happen. I think the writers are perfectly capable of integrating their relationship into the story without alienating the USAF. Especially since everyone I've talked with who has actually been IN the service says it should be possible.

Popping out of lurkdom:

You betcha. Assuming he's not right above her in Chain-of-Command, and it seems likely he's NOT, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it legally or ethically. But AT may not really understand that.

The problem is, a lot of the audience won't, either. Which will mean either a lot of explaining or vaguary on when they really got together. As in, 'publically' getting together after he retires with a *wink wink nudge nudge* indicating a longer relationship by way of the sort of thing we've been seeing all along. And while there's nothing WRONG with them being together now, perception is very much reality in this sort of thing so I could understand them keeping a low profile publically to prevent folks misunderstanding their relationship. The couples I've worked with who were both in the service, you wouldn't have known they knew each other outside of work. Which always made it rather strange to suddenly receive invites to their wedding

And I'm one of those who believe we actually did see the beginning of their relationship in Threads and their realizing they needed to do whatever was necessary to be together. The beginning of S9 finding them having done that. We just didn't see all of it as this isn't the Sam and Jack Show and, except for about 3 minutes in D&C, their relationship has always been subtle. And even those 3 minutes weren't completely spelled out for the audience.

/lurk

EDIT: I should also mention JM has said he believes Sam and Jack got together after Threads and have been together since. And his opinion as a writer and SGA showrunner has to be at least as important as hers...

[VSS]

Popping out of lurkdom:

You betcha. Assuming he's not right above her in Chain-of-Command, and it seems likely he's NOT, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it legally or ethically. But AT may not really understand that.

I think she does, it's just not her preference. It never has been, from what I can tell. But she's a professional and will act the part as it's written just as she always has.

The problem is, a lot of the audience won't, either. Which will mean either a lot of explaining or vaguary on when they really got together. As in, 'publically' getting together after he retires with a *wink wink nudge nudge* indicating a longer relationship by way of the sort of thing we've been seeing all along.

I think that the audience will understand- once he's no longer her boss, it's okay for them to have a relationship. It's fandom that doesn't because we've got this bug in our ear about Jack having to retire, and that makes no sense. A couple of us shippers have been wondering where the heck that idea came from since it isn't actually the real situation at all, as you've pointed out. (And as JM himself mentioned). Fandom has blown the regs up into this huge monster of an issue, when it isn't. You see it everywhere on GW.

Having said that, I agree on the winking and nudging.

And while there's nothing WRONG with them being together now, perception is very much reality in this sort of thing so I could understand them keeping a low profile publically to prevent folks misunderstanding their relationship. The couples I've worked with who were both in the service, you wouldn't have known they knew each other outside of work. Which always made it rather strange to suddenly receive invites to their wedding

And I'm one of those who believe we actually did see the beginning of their relationship in Threads and their realizing they needed to do whatever was necessary to be together. The beginning of S9 finding them having done that. We just didn't see all of it as this isn't the Sam and Jack Show and, except for about 3 minutes in D&C, their relationship has always been subtle. And even those 3 minutes weren't completely spelled out for the audience.

/lurk[/COLOR]

EDIT: I should also mention JM has said he believes Sam and Jack got together after Threads and have been together since. And his opinion as a writer and SGA showrunner has to be at least as important as hers...

That's pretty much what I think. But truly, most mature adult coworkers who are dating would keep their relationship out of the workplace. The hard thing about Stargate is that they exclusively show only the workplace!

[JenniferJF]

I think that the audience will understand- once he's no longer her boss, it's okay for them to have a relationship. It's fandom that doesn't because we've got this bug in our ear about Jack having to retire, and that makes no sense. A couple of us shippers have been wondering where the heck that idea came from since it isn't actually the real situation at all, as you've pointed out. (And as JM himself mentioned). Fandom has blown the regs up into this huge monster of an issue, when it isn't. You see it everywhere on GW.

Well. Everyone I know in RL who isn't involved in fandom who watches the show (and scifi tends to be a common conversation at extended family gatherings on both sides of the family so it's a lot of people) pretty much just assume they're together now. But as it's not the Sam/Jack show, they don't expect it to be made an issue of. So you've really got an excellent point. Fans do not equate to average viewers.

EDIT: Oh, and on most adult coworkers keeping their relationship out of the workplace. It's sort of funny, really, because on most TV shows they *don't*, and that's actually what's unrealistic. IMHO. Only 'we're' so used to seeing inappropriate workplace behavior we assume it's a given on TV.

[VSS]

Well. Everyone I know in RL who isn't involved in fandom who watches the show (and scifi tends to be a common conversation at extended family gatherings on both sides of the family so it's a lot of people) pretty much just assume they're together now. But as it's not the Sam/Jack show, they don't expect it to be made an issue of. So you've really got an excellent point. Fans do not equate to average viewers.

EDIT: Oh, and on most adult coworkers keeping their relationship out of the workplace. It's sort of funny, really, because on most TV shows they *don't*, and that's actually what's unrealistic. IMHO. Only 'we're' so used to seeing inappropriate workplace behavior we assume it's a given on TV.

I think you nailed the issue right there. We expect to see more because all the rest of the shows are such soap operas!

But they never, ever show anything unrelated to the story at hand in Stargate. So unless the relationship is the story, we're not going to see it.

That's what makes being a S/J shipper so frustrating because the moments are so few, but when we get them they're terrific!

[JackandSamAddict]

I have to agree with you there- I seem to remember that TPTB said that a few months went by between the end of season 8 and the start of season 9. Usually, the time frame they stick with is 2-3 weeks between episodes. So there would have been plenty of time to work things out and as one wise poster said somewhere on GW the regs don't exist to make people miserable. If they're in a relationship, that could be worked out going forward.

But in a practical sense I'll be irked because all the hints TPTB have given that indicate they're together. I haven't felt all that jerked around up until this point (unlike some shippers who have been around forever) but I will if that's the way they want to write it.



I've never actually seen that Trio scene but I did see MG talking about it. And it sounded fishy to me, like other considerations went into it besides the length of the segment. COnsidering the press it had already gotten, there had to be big, big reasons for it to be cut.



Yes, I agree with this. Remember Jack didn't want his relationship with Kerry known, either. Although, that might have been because he didn't want Sam to find out but I think there was more to it than that. And eyebrows could raise- even in the private world most people don't want to let on that they're sleeping with the boss.

I also agree about the subordinate/superior thing. It's lonely at the top. I don't see s superior officer sharing much with someone in her command, either.

I agree with these statements here. I may be one of the only ones...but I still say they're married. Something more than just friends has to be going on between those two. It can't be by mistake that Sam just picks up those Jackisms unless they were in a solid relationship.

And you're right, VSS in normal life...no one would wait that long...it just wouldn't happen. They are so together!