Originally posted by fems
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Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread
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Actually, as far as I'm aware the change from HWS to HWC was simply in the name. Hammond, as director of HWS was entrusted with the oversight of all things relating to Earth's defense including the facility in Antarctica, the BC-303 and BC-304 programs, and the SGC.
Even if Jack and Sam started 'dating' after they both transferred (to HWS and Area 51 respectively), they would have been forced to "terminate" their romantic relationship once she went back to the SGC, since Jack would be her CO's CO. And even if that would be okay with everyone involved turning a blind eye or something, Jack would still be Sam's direct CO once she took command of Atlantis (and consequently the Hammond).
And I don't think the HWS position was created to give Hammond a job. After all, why would he need to be promoted out of the SGC in the first place? Not to mention that Hammond had been hoping to retire soon when he took command of the SGC, so I would think he'd be glad to finally spend more time with his granddaughters if they wanted him to leave the SGC so Jack could take over. Even after officially retiring, Hammond was still used in some sort of advisory position to the President. If, like you said, HWS was merely devised so that Hammond would still have a role within the structure, they could have just skipped creating the new division at the Pentagon and simply retain him in the same advisory position he had after retiring.
I believe HWS was created out of necessity, since there had been so much changes and more alien technology etc since they started the SGC. Not only Area 51 was now actively researching/backwards engineering alien technology, but Earth was creating their own fleet of spaceships, they had command of an alien city in a different galaxy etc etc. At first just the SGC reporting directly to the President/JCS would have been okay, but considering the increased workload over the years I think they needed someone other than the President/JCS to take command of those structures (and then report to them when necessary). But that would have been illogical in the beginning of the program, since no one had any real experience and Hammond seemed to do fine underneath the mountain. But after seven years and all their discoveries, he could have used something less stressful (with all the alien invasions) and had the experience to deal with all the other departments too.Last edited by fems; 26 July 2011, 04:15 AM.Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
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My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.
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Isn't the IOA in charge of Atlantis?
Anyway I do think they were married by the time she's on the Hammond though. Maybe even Atlantis. As I said, I can see them getting married, just not straight away that's all.
This is why we need frigging confirmation from TPTB! Because although I know what points you are making, and in some ways I do agree with it, I just can't see them jumping into something as serious as marriage when it took them so long to work up the courage to even talk about 'them'.
Career wise, on paper it makes sense, but emotionally it doesn't, for me
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I understand
As for the IOA in charge of Atlantis... I'm not entirely sure. I know they were in control when the expedition started and Weir was in command, but somehow I doubt the military/JCS/President would allow a civilian organization to have complete control over Atlantis, especially with all the military personnel stationed there as well. I've always found that hard to believe. I'd rather think that the IOA, which is also stationed at the Pentagon, has a say in certain missions/situations and funding, but collaborates with HWS/HWC who is in charge of the military side of things. Especially after Sam took command of Atlantis, as I believe it was the IOA who requested a more military presence after all the events that led up to Weir's um, status. But it's entirely possible I've read too many fics and am confusing canon with fanonUnmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
On FFnet or AO3
My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.
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Originally posted by dipsofjazz View PostWhilst I enjoyed Continuum as a good old-fashioned romp, I do have problems with it.
I wish there had been much more Jack/RDA in the film.
I agree that the team would have tried to contact each other. It seems out of character for them to give up.
We get to see what Daniel and Mitchell do - actually, I felt we got far too much of Mitchell - but what do we see Sam doing? Shopping.
I also didn't like BB playing Mitchell's grandfather, as it took me out of the story.
Overall, I did like the film, and really wish we could have seen the third movie with more Jack. (and confirmation that S/J are happy together.)sigpicMy Stories zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Artwork by Mala
Distinguished Service Ribbon Goa'uld Campaign
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I believe that Atlantis is divided between military and civilian command. The IOA has control of the overall expedition. Sam was selected by the IOA with a recommendation from Jack to be leader of Atlantis, per the deleted scene in Reunion. Sheppard as the military commander of Atlantis reports to Sam as head of Atlantis, but has an AF chain of command as well. (At least in the early years, that appears to be through the SGC and Landry, as seen in S2, The Intruder. Later Jack and HWS/C appear to take more of a role.) In any event, I don't think Sam was back under Jack's direct CoC until she took command of The Hammond.
Although it's never specified I think HWC is very different from HWS. (Something I think was supposed to be clarified in the third movie.) First, you have to understand how these positions are created and can exist in the US Government. The President can't create a division of the DoD out of whole cloth. (That must be legislated by Congress.) And the structure of the DoD is very different from other executive departments. There's no way General Hammond's position could have been established in the way it was, in the time frame it was to be anything other than a presidential advisory position within the WH. It makes perfect sense that it would take another five years to establish a permanant command within the structure of the DoD.
I don't think getting married right away takes an emotional toll. I think they would be anxious to make it permanent and legal. And really, given that they are physically seperated, the extra emotional and psychological connectivity derived from a marriage I would think was a comfort to them. It doesn't mean that there relationship was stagnant. No matter how long you hold off on marriage it's still an adjustment. Personally, I think they would take the plunge. I know Sam tends to be more cautious than Jack, but I actually see her being the one least likely to hold back in this case because she knows what she wants and is going to have it. And once Sam is determined, there's no stopping her.sigpic
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Originally posted by hlndncr View PostPersonally, I think they would take the plunge. I know Sam tends to be more cautious than Jack, but I actually see her being the one least likely to hold back in this case because she knows what she wants and is going to have it. And once Sam is determined, there's no stopping her.
In fact, in my own mind, I can see a little scenario where they've been spending a week together (soon after the fishing scene, and before Sam gets recalled to the SGC), and they just look at each other and simultaneously say "Let's get married!" They both laugh at how in synch they are, and go off to the Justice of the Peace and get hitched. Okay, so not everybody would agree with that. But in my mind, that's how it could happen. And later they could have another ceremony for just a few of their very closest friends.
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Originally posted by hlndncr View PostIn any event, I don't think Sam was back under Jack's direct CoC until she took command of The Hammond.
Originally posted by hlndncr View PostAlthough it's never specified I think HWC is very different from HWS. (Something I think was supposed to be clarified in the third movie.)
Originally posted by hlndncr View PostFirst, you have to understand how these positions are created and can exist in the US Government. The President can't create a division of the DoD out of whole cloth. (That must be legislated by Congress.) And the structure of the DoD is very different from other executive departments. There's no way General Hammond's position could have been established in the way it was, in the time frame it was to be anything other than a presidential advisory position within the WH. It makes perfect sense that it would take another five years to establish a permanant command within the structure of the DoD.
Hmm, I was just checking The Fourth Horseman to see if there was a mention of HWS/superiors and came across this:
HARRIMAN
And, according to General Hammond's office, our allies have expressed concerns about the cover story, specifically, how long we can continue to maintain it. They've requested a meeting with you.
But that's season nine, isn't that supposed to be Jack's office since Hammond supposedly retired? And Hammond also made an appearance in the episodes, so would that be simply in his advisory position (that apparently also provides him with an office)? Or maybe he's not completely retired yet as Jack's settling into the new command? I'm thoroughly confused as Sam also calls him by his rank and he doesn't correct her/say he's retired, but he is wearing a regular suit.
Originally posted by hlndncr View PostI know Sam tends to be more cautious than Jack, but I actually see her being the one least likely to hold back in this case because she knows what she wants and is going to have it. And once Sam is determined, there's no stopping her.Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
On FFnet or AO3
My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.
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Originally posted by fems View PostBesides, Sam is probably trying to avoid too much thinking or a long engagement, since those haven't worked out for her in the past
I actually thought the whole meeting Pete, getting engaged, setting a date for the wedding went quite quick, but then this is tv land...
I do agree though that once they decide to get married, they would just do it.
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Originally posted by Kate1013 View PostWasn't her whole relationship with Pete about 18 months and their engagement about half that? To me that's not long but maybe I'm just old fashioned?
I actually thought the whole meeting Pete, getting engaged, setting a date for the wedding went quite quick, but then this is tv land...
I do agree though that once they decide to get married, they would just do it.
Season 8, Episode 7, "Affinity" - got engaged to Pete
Season 8, Episode 18, "Threads" - broke up with Pete
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Maybe... I guess it's a "cultural" difference; around here, we don't really do those over the top weddings that have to be planned a year in advance or something. So I guess what I see as a long engagement would be relatively short for the USA. I did think he was proposing way too soon though.
EDIT:
Hm, yes, but in Chimera it was obvious they had already been dating for a (little?) while, with how comfortable they were with each other. But still way too soon to propose.Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
On FFnet or AO3
My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.
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I grew up in a world where people meet, get engaged, and marry within 3-4 months. Anything else seems long to me.
That being said, any egagement to was too soon IMO. The time frame I'm think of is sometime around when pigs fly and hell freezes over.sigpic
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Originally posted by fems View PostEDIT:
Hm, yes, but in Chimera it was obvious they had already been dating for a (little?) while, with how comfortable they were with each other. But still way too soon to propose.
Evolution - finding telchak device
Grace - missing for several days and a few more in the infirmary
Fallout - maybe a week
Chimera - has date(s) with Pete
Death Knell - a month after Evolution
I'm thinking the writers didn't give much thought to the time frame they were writing about.
They did pretty much the same thing with Jack and Kerry. In "Citizen Joe" Jack says he's meeting with an "agent Johnson", which doesn't sound to me like he's even met her or knows the agent is a woman. Two episodes later we see them waking up in his bed, looking very, very comfortable with each other, as if they'd been a couple for way longer than a month. "Reckoning" was the only episode between "Citizen Joe" and "Threads".
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As for the CoC after Hammond leaves, I don't think the PTB ever really solidified it in their own minds. They did whatever was convenient, especially based on actor availability. For example, in Fourth Horseman General Jumper (USAF CoS) was supposed to make a return appearance. When his schedule changed (guess he had a couple of wars to fight, go figure) DSD was asked to come in last minute.
I think the CoC is whatever you can justify, and their are a lot of options. I've worked it out so that it makes sense to me according to my own understanding and experience.sigpic
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hedwig
Yep, I agree. But I don't see Sam being so comfortable with Pete after one or two dates, let alone jumping in bed with him. When I started reading your post I immediately thought about Jack and Kerry. A shame that the show's time frame isn't always correct.
hlndncr
One of many things they got wrong after season 8Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
On FFnet or AO3
My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.
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