Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

Looks like I'm the only one here who likes this episode and enjoys Jaffa stories.

I also didn't notice anything more than teamy camaraderie between Sam and Jack and I'm impressed that Rachel wrote so much!

On the subject of Teal'c cheating, I've been toying with the idea that it may be a cultural thing. Since I was under the impression that T and Drey'auc reconciled at the end of "Family" his affair with Shoun'auc here is cheating. But he does the same thing in season 8 when he's supposed to be in a relationship with Ishta and sleeps with Krista. So either it's socially acceptable for the alpha males/leaders in Jaffa society (I know he was outraged by Drey'auc's betrayal but Fro'tac was of lower standing than Teal'c) or it's one of the flaws of the character, much like his penchant for vengeance.

[kusanagi]

Looks like I'm the only one here who likes this episode and enjoys Jaffa stories.

I also didn't notice anything more than teamy camaraderie between Sam and Jack and I'm impressed that Rachel wrote so much!

On the subject of Teal'c cheating, I've been toying with the idea that it may be a cultural thing. Since I was under the impression that T and Drey'auc reconciled at the end of "Family" his affair with Shoun'auc here is cheating. But he does the same thing in season 8 when he's supposed to be in a relationship with Ishta and sleeps with Krista. So either it's socially acceptable for the alpha males/leaders in Jaffa society (I know he was outraged by Drey'auc's betrayal but Fro'tac was of lower standing than Teal'c) or it's one of the flaws of the character, much like his penchant for vengeance.

That's interesting question. Personally I would prefer to think it's a cultural thing rather than the character's flaw. I'm sure there's are many examples of cultures in which such a behavior is acceptable or even natural. Motives of Teal'c's actions were never explained so I guess it's all about interpretation. We don't really know that much about this culture after all.

[Nynaeve506]

Looks like I'm the only one here who likes this episode and enjoys Jaffa stories.

I also didn't notice anything more than teamy camaraderie between Sam and Jack and I'm impressed that Rachel wrote so much!

On the subject of Teal'c cheating, I've been toying with the idea that it may be a cultural thing. Since I was under the impression that T and Drey'auc reconciled at the end of "Family" his affair with Shoun'auc here is cheating. But he does the same thing in season 8 when he's supposed to be in a relationship with Ishta and sleeps with Krista. So either it's socially acceptable for the alpha males/leaders in Jaffa society (I know he was outraged by Drey'auc's betrayal but Fro'tac was of lower standing than Teal'c) or it's one of the flaws of the character, much like his penchant for vengeance.

I tend to go with cultural myself. The problem with a lot of shows that try to give us different cultures is that they "scrub" them a little . I mean even in "Emancipation" it just so happens they run into a forward thinking leader and they managed to free all the women. In a very real way our characters push a Western way of thinking onto the other side. In a lot of cultures the woman must stay faithful (so we know who the daddy is) but the dude can sow his seed. I'm just going to assume Teal'c doesn't have a strict sense of marital fidelity as the Alpha Male.

But yeah... I don't like Jaffa Jaffa episodes either. Only Unas episodes rank lower.

[Petra]

Is this you Twilight?

You know what I also find interesting? That nobody calls him on it.

[Rachel500]

In Birthright, Ishta notes that she suffered 'mistreatment' by her husband taking on many wives but was given material items to compensate, so it is perhaps a cultural thing.

Having said that, I think from a production perspective they just dropped the ball and "forgot" about Drey'auc...until they killed her off finally in S6.

[Nynaeve506]

Is this you Twilight?

You know what I also find interesting? That nobody calls him on it.

Yes, it's me

Well. Daniel isn't really one to talk And Jack sort of stays out of these things (it would require actual talking and we know how he feels about that)... and I don't think Sam would be comfortable bringing up T's sex life.

[Cagranosalis]

You know what I also find interesting? That nobody calls him on it.

Good point. I don't really see Jack being the gossip about romantic entanglements kind of guy (therein would lay the madness of having to face his own, right?) and Sam's not the prying type either. If anyone I would have thought Daniel would raise the subject of fidelity but then, hey, he's hardly got room to preach given his track record. He was unfaithful to Sha're at least twice (ok, Hathor probably doens't count since it wasn't technically consensual... for that matter, does that woman in Need count either for the same reason? )

In Birthright, Ishta notes that she suffered 'mistreatment' by her husband taking on many wives but was given material items to compensate, so it is perhaps a cultural thing.

Having said that, I think from a production perspective they just dropped the ball and "forgot" about Drey'auc...until they killed her off finally in S6.

Well if Ishta suffered mistreatment that way it would imply that while pologamy among men is acceptable, there is a limit to how many women a man can sow his oats with before it becomes unacceptable or crass. Otherwise it would have just been culturally normal for her and not mistreatment, surely?
But that's certainly evidence to suggest Jaffa ethos of male fidelity is completely different to Western standards.

Or, that second point; probably more likely.

[Nynaeve506]

Well if Ishta suffered mistreatment that way it would imply that while pologamy among men is acceptable, there is a limit to how many women a man can sow his oats with before it becomes unacceptable or crass. Otherwise it would have just been culturally normal for her and not mistreatment, surely?
But that's certainly evidence to suggest Jaffa ethos of male fidelity is completely different to Western standards.

Or, that second point; probably more likely.

It might be a hierarchy thing - for example perhaps she was the first wife but treated as though she were merely a concubine or perhaps she didn't bear him a son and so she was beaten. I get the impression that women in Jaffa cultures don't have a lot of value (her need to prove herself to Teal'c who treated her rather softly until she knocked the smack out of him).

Cags I know I say this like once a month, but I love your sig, like love it, like fall down laughing *every time* I see it love it. LOL

Wait so... did this episode have a Jack Sam point again? I got distracted with all the Jaffa Jaffa talk.

[Cagranosalis]

It might be a hierarchy thing - for example perhaps she was the first wife but treated as though she were merely a concubine or perhaps she didn't bear him a son and so she was beaten. I get the impression that women in Jaffa cultures don't have a lot of value (her need to prove herself to Teal'c who treated her rather softly until she knocked the smack out of him).

Cags I know I say this like once a month, but I love your sig, like love it, like fall down laughing *every time* I see it love it. LOL

Wait so... did this episode have a Jack Sam point again? I got distracted with all the Jaffa Jaffa talk.

Apparently.

*points and Rachel's review.*


*shrugs*


Kudos Rachel for finding so much.


(thanks for the sig compliment - I know the one you mean. I have plenty now so if you want to snurch it, say so and I'll PM it to you or something.)

[josiane]

Before I get into the main reason I'm here, I should say I've only skim-read through the discussion on Upgrades, as I haven't really had time the last few days to give it enough attention, so I may well have repeated things you've already said Apologies if so!

Banner by Regularamanda

Synopsis
You know the one. Sam and Jack have to admit how they feel about each other, assisted by flashbacks to two episodes ago. Oh and there's some stuff about a Tok'ra-Presidential summit, and Martouf dies.

(I have written so much analysis vvv that I have completely lost any kind of energy to write any more up here I suspect this is going to have to be posted in two parts )

Favourite moment
The entire za'tarc confession/forceshield flashback scene, obviously, and within that, if I have to pick, that moment when there is nothing left for them to do but to stare at one another, and speak more with their eyes than words ever could say.

Favourite quote
What else??
I didn't leave, because I'd have rather died myself than lose Carter. Because I care about her, a lot more than I'm supposed to.
*sob*

Analysis
I always feel D&C is rather two-sided. On the one hand, the plot is incredibly clunky and full of holes, and, particularly when rewatching, does feel like a means to an end - lots of exposition and convenient jumps in logic or racking up of the danger step-by-step just in order to get to the meat of it, the confession. However, on the other hand, particularly when we get to this meaty part, the acting and writing and direction (*pause for the obligatory Martin Wood fangurl moment*) is just incredible, and IMO, totally redeems all the weak and convenient plotting.

So, the critical part first, then I'll get to the admiration

The whole za'tarc thing is brought in so fast, and then dispatched with equal speed - this is the only episode that deals with the concept, aside from the brief call-back in Allegiance two seasons later. This means we have a huge amount of exposition to explain both the concept, and the way in which it could have happened, and then because it's purely in order to get to the confession scene, the concept is then wasted somewhat. The whole idea of being a za'tarc is terrifying, frankly, that it can happen in only moments, that you can be completely unaware, and that there's nothing that you can do once it's happened except kill or die or both. They needed this level of danger and threat, because it had to be something huge to force Sam and Jack to admit to their feelings, but the risk is that you've brought in something way threatening and powerful and how do you deal with the implications of this possibility for everyone every time they step through the gate? So they don't, they just quietly let it drop. Which is slightly weak storytelling, I think, but never mind - it got us some amazing scenes and brought the ship out in to the clear light of day, so let's not complain too much

Right, admiration.

This episode might be entirely a means to an end, but wow that end is awesomely done! What is to come is foreshadowed in the early part of the episode not only by the exposition and what happens to Graham and Astor, but also by little things like the cut-away shots to Sam and Jack (in particular note the wry look from Jack when Astor says 'I thought we were that good' - because of course, SG1 are guilty of this cockiness themselves, and from a shippy perspective, it could also apply to Sam and Jack's behaviour in the early part of S4), and the lack of framing of the two of them together - in marked contrast to how this is usually done to show them as a couple, here all the blocking splits them up - divides them. But it's when we really get to the scenes dealing with Sam and Jack's realisation that it becomes particularly effective. They are divided throughout the episode, always with someone or something between them, if not actually in different rooms, until we get to the scene where Sam comes to interrupt the procedure and tell Jack what really happened. Then all of a sudden they are framed together again, and very intimately - the camera right in close on both of them.

The use of the S/J theme is also very clever here. The theme kind of breaks down into three parts, really - there's the introductory bit (not used exclusively for S/J throughout the series), then the quiet piano bit, and then the full on theme. The first time we hear any of it is when Astor is revealed to be a zatarc - only the introduction, so not the fully S/J bit, but it prefigures musically what the scene itself is prefiguring dramatically. The second time, and again only the introductory bit, plays as Janet is sedating Sam - here illustrating the beginning of Sam's recollection. Then the whole theme comes into play in the pivotal scene in the isolation room, and the moments it underscores by starting up or kicking into full-gear are very specific: first when Sam says 'Something neither one of us can admit given our working relationship, our military ranks'; then during the flashback it comes in at the moment they are looking at one another through the forceshield; and the third time just as Sam prompts Jack to make the admission and he says 'I didn't leave...' etc.

Other things... I think the way the flashbacks to the events of Upgrades are done are really clever, how gradually each time a bit more of the puzzle is revealed. Really helps build up the suspense to the final revelation. I also think it's very clever how Sam has a flashback to her view of Jack walking away from her down the corridor to undergo the procedure, just as a lead-in to her remembering - the way that again they are looking at one another and communicating silently while kept apart (this time by people rather than the forceshield) prompting the memory of what actually happened.

After Cags's comment on the double-meaning of Upgrades, I found myself counting the number of ways in which the title of this episode could apply (always a fun exercise - the Stargate PTB do love their multi-layered meanings ):
- The very existence of za'tarc's threaten to divide & conquer both the Tok'ra, the SCG and the summit and agreement between the two.
- As I mentioned above, Sam and Jack are divided and kept apart throughout most of the episode (physically in different rooms for a large part of it) and this almost does for both of them - it's only when Sam tears down that barrier that they avoid being conquered. This even applies to the way that the options are presented to Sam and Jack - Anise talking to Jack, Martouf visiting Sam, both trying to push them into making decisions which would probably end up killing them.
- And of course the forceshield scene is the most striking example of them being divided and conquered - as that's the moment that they realise the significance of their feelings, while stood on either side, as well as it also almost being their downfall with the entire za'tarc situation.

Continued in next post...

[josiane]

Implications for Sam and Jack

There's two parts to this, really - the implications from Upgrades and the actual forceshield moment, and the implications of the za'tarc testing and the forced confrontation and confession of that moment.

I'll try not to repeat what Cags said about Upgrades too much, but really the scene at the forceshield catches them entirely unawares. It's a classic Icarus case - they flew too high, got too close and comfortable with each other and with the idea that their feelings were reciprocated in all the warm fuzzy fluffy way that that makes you feel, and didn't realise the darker side. I think they thought that because they both knew nothing could happen it was somehow 'safe', but Upgrades is the first in a series of events that show them that it isn't, and that once the feelings are there they are a problem and a danger even if they prevent themselves from acting on them and technically don't break the regs (although they certainly bend the spirit of them probably farther than it ever should have gone!). Plus of course in Upgrades their judgement is hugely impaired, which means that not only do they get into this situation, but they are more open in their reaction to it. I wonder whether the same emotional moment of honesty would have happened in quite the same way had they not been 'under the influence', even ignoring the fact they may not have been in that situation in the first place?

However, afterwards, they both seem to do what they always do, which is compartmentalise and pretend it never happened. It takes something of the magnitude of possibly being za'tarcs (and even then, actually, it's the magnitude of Jack possibly dying) to get them to admit to it. However I think it's even more than that - it takes something of this magnitude to get them to even admit it to themselves, let alone to each other and to Anise's machine. The description of what the machine actually does seems to me to be the key here - it reads the subconscious and compares it to the conscious, indicating that Sam and Jack's memories of the moment at the forceshield, and the significance of it, has been buried so deep that even they don't really remember it. This is also borne out by the way that the realisation only comes to Sam about what it means when the sedative starts to take effect, and she flashes back to seeing Jack walking away from her, reminding her of the forceshield moment. They certainly have denial down to a fine art, our pair

As to the actual forceshield scene itself... well I am blown away every time I watch it by just how powerful it is. The desperation in the lead-up, Jack bashing away at the control panel almost in a frenzy, with Sam looking on helplessly, is just the appetiser, and a perfect contrast to the utter stillness of that moment when they just stare at each other, beyond words (and oh how glad am I that they decided to drop the scripted lines - nothing could make that scene more powerful and in fact I think actual words would both detract and be out of character). I know there have been many discussions in the past about what exactly they were thinking and feeling at that point. Considering I am of the opinion that they both knew that the feelings existed and were mutual from their period off-world between Nemesis and Small Victories, I think what we see at the forceshield is the crashing realisation that it is a problem, and that they were naive to think that it was just harmless fluffy flirting. But I know some people see it as the realisation that the feelings are reciprocated happening here as well.

The use of eye contact throughout these pivotal scenes is really clever, I think. The intensity of their looks to one another across the forceshield is contrasted with a lot of avoidance of eye contact in the scene in the isolation room. When Sam is telling Jack what the machine was really detecting, they both look at one another and also away from one another in turn, lending the moments of eye-contact almost a side-long, furtive feeling - particularly Jack - note when he says 'Oh, oh that'. Then as Jack's confession itself is happening, he avoids making eye contact with her until right at the very end - watch his eyes flick to hers. The body language throughout these scenes is very defensive, very guarded - the admission comes out but it couldn't be more grudging. And it's understandable why - beforehand, the feelings were like their little secret - just between them, and barely acknowledged, just an understanding that that was the way it was. Now it's no longer the case, and even if the things they must have been most worried about (disciplinary proceedings, reassignment etc) don't come to pass, it's like this moment is making the problem they'd both tried very hard not to notice, very concrete and real. From this point on, the truth is out, and they realise that they are going to have to be more guarded in their behaviour and their attitude to one another - the fun flirty time is over.

I think their decision to 'leave it in the room' is both entirely expected and also really the only option they would have felt they had. It's their amazing capacity for denial continuing again - if we pretend it never happened, and never speak of it again, then it's like it never existed. But of course they are both spectacularly short-sighted in this respect, and don't realise that once this particular Pandora's box is open, it's never getting closed again, and their feelings for one another, and attempts to deny or hide or control those feelings, are going to crop up again and again and colour their every interaction from this point on.

It is interesting that it is Sam who is the one who takes the lead in this episode, especially considering our recent discussion over on the appreciation thread about this. But again it turns out to be very much in line with what will happen in the future - Sam is always the one to bring the subject up. I this is because Jack's capacity for denial is far greater than Sam's (and that's saying something!), and also because he is more aware of the potential for his actions to be misinterpreted as coercive, as the senior officer. He is desperately proud of Sam and probably terrified that he might do something that would cause her ever to fail in any way.

There is just so much I could list here, including things like how so much of what happens in this episode establishes patterns for how their relationship is going to play out over the following seasons - the idea that Jack would die rather than lose Sam, and the way Jack deflects his desperate concern over here with a self-deprecating quip about the value of her brain compared to his, not denying his feelings but deflecting again when Anise asks him if there's someone else

Finally, as this episode is about Sam and Jack's feelings being brought out into the open (or kinda!), a few words about the reactions of the other characters, particularly Daniel and Janet. I've never been able to make up my mind whether Daniel is oddly oblivious, or perfectly well aware but just chooses to ignore it. The scene where he assumes it was Sam that made a pass at Jack has been cited as evidence of the latter, but then again, given the fact that they had just been talking about Sam, Jack did make a bit of a swift change of direction so I don't think it is necessarily proof. Likewise the way Daniel edits the truth of why Jack decided to undergo the procedure (but Janet was explicit) when telling Sam - is this because he's trying to protect her, or because he hasn't really picked up on the implications? Daniel is an incredibly perceptive man, there's no doubt about that, but I think he has the classic academic mindset where he focuses on things he can study and the bigger picture but can overlook things right under his nose.

Anyway, I think that's all I can think of to say for now

[Nynaeve506]

Thanks Josi for the great review!!

My thoughts on D&C:

Believe it or not, when I watch D&C I'm left a little disappointed. I love *love* RDA and AT and I love what the plot does for these two characters, *but* part of me always feels like this was kind of like a badly written fanfic (add to the fact that we never hear of zay'tarcs again). The thing that saves it is the acting IMO. (I also don't like Anise - but it's because of the way she talks).

I maybe in the minority on this episode. I truly truly love RDA and AT and I think their scenes are breathtaking but the rest of the episode leaves me wanting.

[josiane]

Thanks Josi for the great review!!

My thoughts on D&C:

Believe it or not, when I watch D&C I'm left a little disappointed. I love *love* RDA and AT and I love what the plot does for these two characters, *but* part of me always feels like this was kind of like a badly written fanfic (add to the fact that we never hear of zay'tarcs again). The thing that saves it is the acting IMO. (I also don't like Anise - but it's because of the way she talks).

I maybe in the minority on this episode. I truly truly love RDA and AT and I think their scenes are breathtaking but the rest of the episode leaves me wanting.

Nope, that's pretty much how I feel too! It feels very contrived to me, just to get Sam and Jack into that position, so I always find the first half hour rather disappointing. But the amazingness of the acting, particularly RDA and AT, and the incredible climax with the confession and the flashbacks, totally redeems the mediocre stuff before

[Cagranosalis]

*Fangurls all over Josi's awesome review*

Sorry, I'd green you but, apparently, I love you too much already.

Seriously great analysis and I don't have much to add on the subject except I think the episode should have been called "Can Open: Worms Everywhere."

Oh and this.

Finally, as this episode is about Sam and Jack's feelings being brought out into the open (or kinda!), a few words about the reactions of the other characters, particularly Daniel and Janet. I've never been able to make up my mind whether Daniel is oddly oblivious, or perfectly well aware but just chooses to ignore it. The scene where he assumes it was Sam that made a pass at Jack has been cited as evidence of the latter, but then again, given the fact that they had just been talking about Sam, Jack did make a bit of a swift change of direction so I don't think it is necessarily proof. Likewise the way Daniel edits the truth of why Jack decided to undergo the procedure (but Janet was explicit) when telling Sam - is this because he's trying to protect her, or because he hasn't really picked up on the implications? Daniel is an incredibly perceptive man, there's no doubt about that, but I think he has the classic academic mindset where he focuses on things he can study and the bigger picture but can overlook things right under his nose.

Ignoring Daniel for a moment but focussing on Janet and Teal'c watching on during The Confession. I was always under the impression they heard what was said and reacted to it (and thus a thousand "talky feely" fanfics were born - some of which aren't bad actually). However it wasn't until I rewatched with the commentary on (*takes a moment to do my own Martin Wood fangurling* ) that I realised the way the scene is edited is to possibly imply that, in fact, they may be watching - and therefore see that they are not Zatarcs - but they might not have actually heard what was said. i.e the truth of the depth of their feelings might not have been revealed to their colleagues even then. Although, personally, I've never had any doubt Teal'c had known all along. It's an interesting idea, not one I subscribe to though, maybe because I'm tainted by all those fanfics or by my own interpretation all these years, however it would explain just why they were able to carry on regardless without Janet saying something at least; she probably would have been duty bound to report what she'd heard.
As for Daniel; I'm in the camp of more or less oblivious at this point. I think I agree with the academia brain thing but also I think he sees Sam and Jack's closeness as something of a military bond. I'm pretty certain he does grow aware of their feelings as time goes on though but that's for a later discussion.


I'm also largely in agreement with you about when the realised there were reciprocal feelings there. I think Sam, at least, had been aware for a while that she was on shaky ground but it's only during that Nemesis/Small Victories break that she came to realise Jack felt the same way. Maybe Jack started to realise too but I think it remained perfectly unsaid and, to an extent unacknowledged at least in any concious way. My interpretation has always been that the forceshield moment really signifies for Jack that this is actual real, honest-to-goodness love of the serious kind. Sam, as I say, knew that beforehand but, again, denial is a fantastic way to deal with difficult emotional questions you know you really ought to face but if you do it's going to be messy. Essentially the forceshield moment become the point where they did have a brief glimse of facing those feelings - Jack looks completely shocked and Sam looks kind of resigned in a "I was hoping you wouldn't realise you felt this" way. But, as you say, afterwards the more immediate concerns overtook the events and, maybe they never did go back to the subject to actually analyse and acknoweledge it and that certainly fits in with what happens in this episode.
So then come the zatarcs and the confession that, as you say, Jack has to have dragged out of him almost kicking and screaming and they're being forced to acknowledge this thing is real, but again, immediate events and the danger of the summit and the possibility of there being a zatarc unaccounted for overtake them and we have an almost paralell moment to the actual forceshield one where they don't immediately have to face the enormity of what it all means and the moment passes. Again, denial, push it to the back of your mind... big mistake. Huge!

Did I say I didn't have much to say?

Huh! I lied.

[Aveo_amacus]

Thanks Josi for the great review!!

My thoughts on D&C:

Believe it or not, when I watch D&C I'm left a little disappointed. I love *love* RDA and AT and I love what the plot does for these two characters, *but* part of me always feels like this was kind of like a badly written fanfic (add to the fact that we never hear of zay'tarcs again). The thing that saves it is the acting IMO. (I also don't like Anise - but it's because of the way she talks).

I maybe in the minority on this episode. I truly truly love RDA and AT and I think their scenes are breathtaking but the rest of the episode leaves me wanting.

It does feel a bit like a fic where they're supposed to have an obstacle, get over it and get together but then the author thought 'ah more angst let's keep them appart!'
I know that there's a difference between actual Air Force officers and the fact they're characters on a successful show but it did seem like they wanted them to have the scene but not the resolution, so they go through all that and are still apart at the end.


Edit: Cags posted while I was posting so I'll go back

I agree with you about Daniel, I think to some extent he knows he loves them so why wouldn't they love each other (in a team-matey family type way) before he realised that they don't love each other *that* way. Teal'c, I'm sure already knew: ( )

Great insight about the idea of other events taking over afterwards
Definitely worms everywhere