Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

Going back to The Other Side for a moment, as I did promise to post about it..

I haven't seen this episode in a very long time and I guess it's a good thing, because this time I noticed 2 things I hadn't on any of my previous viewings.

OH OH!! I forgot something from the analysis of Jack - when he was upset with Daniel he totally snapped at Sam when she started to explain heavy water. But only minutes before when he was in the pilot chair he'd expected her just pop up with a translation for the technobabble - proof that Jack is not as dumb as he likes to pretend.

This. It actually makes perfect sense that Jack would know all about heavy water and its use in weaponry - this is the guy who put together a nuke in the movie; he knows stuff. It also doesn't make sense that he waited for Sam's explanation about the pilot's chair, because let's face it: what Eurondans said was pretty clear and understandable. Except then Jack was focused, as usual, on appearing clueless and harmless while later he was too annoyed at Daniel to think about his cover. Which is my long-winded way of saying that I agree with Twilight about the proof of Jack's real intelligence/knowledge.

The second thing that occured to me was: the ending. The Other Side is a Jack/Daniel episode: it's all about their conflict, their way of seeing things, their morals etc, with Sam and Teal'c playing supporting roles. So why the very end is focused on Jack and Sam, not Daniel? It would make more sense in contex of the episode to have Daniel in Sam's place - and yet he isn't.
I think it's just another subtle lead-on to the big revelation in D&C, another way for the writers to show this pairing in a different situation and another proof that the confession in D&C didn't come out of the blue, as some fans insist. I must admit though that I've never noticed exactly how well planned it was.

UPGRADES

I also love this episode - but then I love or really, really like all the episodes this season - so no surprise here..

And then of course there was that scene - you know, the one where we don’t see anything out of the ordinary and yet, later, we discover something huge happened between Jack and Sam. And right there is the double meaning of the episode name; this episode marked the point where their relationship was upgraded from a nice little flirtatious thing to honest to goodness (and highly dangerous all things considered) love.

Good catch. I've never thought about the title in this way, but it makes perfect sense.

Ahem, ok. I know it’s come up before and probably will again, regarding the issue of Teal’c and Daniel staying too. While I don’t dispute they too stayed when they should have left, and this too is significant as it demonstrates the whole team is too close. However, with Jack I have read here an argument that he couldn’t leave due to that forceshield they encounter but it occurred to me that Teal’c and Daniel walked right through the one on the exit and then turned around and could not go back. So I actually think (and this is just my opinion) that it only got raised once the intruder alarm was sounded just after Teal’c and Daniel passed through - i.e. they had not had to pass through it on the way in (which makes sense or else how did non-superhero Teal’c get in?) Jack would have had no way of knowing that. So if you think he’s standing there staring certain death and Sam in the face thinking, "I might as well die here because I can’t get out anyway" I seriously doubt it. I’m pretty certain the only coherent thought flitting through his brain was something along the lines of "Oh sh…".

The forceshields here just confuse me. I always assumed that they worked just one-way, meaning that you had to get through them to get in but had no problem with getting out, like Teal'c and Daniel. But of course this can't be the case because then Teal'c wouldn't have gotten in and more importantly, Sam would never have gotten stuck. So your explanation works better, except: if the forcefields were activated after the alarm, why were they active before (Jack and Sam go through them on their way to plant C4). I don't know if there is some logical explanation or is it just a plothole.

On a good note, there's a lot of complaints in the fandom that Jack and Sam stay behind for absolutely no reason other than to have "a moment" and they should have gone back with Daniel and Teal'c - but this is not the case. It's made pretty clear that they are pursuided by the Jaffa and Sam and Jack stay to fight them off and but time for Teal'c to get Daniel to safety. Presumably the more Jaffa came the further into the building the fight took place. I love that this "plothole" is not a plothole after all.

My 2 cents about Anise: I like her. I think she was a very interesting character and the only outfit of hers that I can't stand is that pointy "thing" from D&C. Her dress in Upgrades isn't something shocking; I know girls who dress like this every day, so there. Heck, my own summer dresses aren't much more conservative
On the subject of her romance with the guys: I agree that it would be interesting to see Jack attracted to her, for the reasons stated. Daniel less so, I've never seen much potential/chemistry there, but I wouldn't have minded either. Basically I just don't like the idea of the Jack-Anise/Freya -Daniel triangle.

Did Jack and Sam talked about the "forceshield incident" before D&C? I don't think so. I'm rather inclined to believe that as soon as the forceshield collapsed they pushed it out of their minds and tried not to even *think* about it till the Za'tarc testing. But it was such a huge moment in both their lives that all it took was Sam's subtle prompt for Jack to catch up.

More random stuff:

I really like all the cold looks Sam gives Anise/Freya every time she tries to speak/shows any interest in Jack. It's like the armband makes her less controlled and less willing/able to keep appearances than usual.

I love how she snaps at Jack when he tries to blame her hunger for the O'Malleys incident No trace of obedient subordinate there, the "sir" she finally tucks at the end seems almost reluctant. It's a lot like her behaviour later on in "The Light".

Secondly, Sam & Jack. If there is a moment where I think they could have screwed the regs, the time they spend sporting the armbands is it because their chemistry is so out of whack it is hugely affecting their judgement. However, I don't think they did screw the regs or I think their reactions in D&C and beyond would have been much different.

It never occured to me that they could have done something more intimate during this time. Maybe because they seem to be under constant survilliance at first, and then Daniel is with them all the time. My personal "screwing the regs time" candidate is "Beneath the Surface"

[Cagranosalis]

The forceshields here just confuse me. I always assumed that they worked just one-way, meaning that you had to get through them to get in but had no problem with getting out, like Teal'c and Daniel. But of course this can't be the case because then Teal'c wouldn't have gotten in and more importantly, Sam would never have gotten stuck. So your explanation works better, except: if the forcefields were activated after the alarm, why were they active before (Jack and Sam go through them on their way to plant C4). I don't know if there is some logical explanation or is it just a plothole.

Well they confused me for a bit but the only thing that makes sense is that the forceshields on the outer edge of the complex are not permanent and could only have been activated just after Daniel and Teal'c go through to the outside, presumably as a result of one of those zatted Jaffa ccoming to and raising the alarm. The ones inside, around the core thing, are permanent and were always there - hence Sam pointing them out on the laptop screen when they were back at the SGC. This way it all works, plotwise.

On a good note, there's a lot of complaints in the fandom that Jack and Sam stay behind for absolutely no reason other than to have "a moment" and they should have gone back with Daniel and Teal'c - but this is not the case. It's made pretty clear that they are pursuided by the Jaffa and Sam and Jack stay to fight them off and but time for Teal'c to get Daniel to safety. Presumably the more Jaffa came the further into the building the fight took place. I love that this "plothole" is not a plothole after all.

You know it never occured to me to question why Sam and Jack went back. I assumed it was to finish the job - i.e. that they had more than one bit of C4 to plant as contingency. It would make sense given that they would think they had plenty of time due to the armbands. I had no idea there was even a fandom debate about that.

[Nynaeve506]

:: jumps into conversation ::

Anise. Anise Anise Anise. What do I say except that it's the actress that makes the character painful to watch. It's the way she talks (like there's a marble in her mouth) and it makes me twitch. Ultimately I'm glad they didn't make her a love interest for Jack - not only because we got such a great ship story but also because she's just no his type. I've always felt that while Jack appreciates the female form, he prefers intelligent, strong women. Plus I always dislike in sci-fi how it's implied that having stigmas surrounding intimacy are a bad thing... but that's a tangent I'll go on in D&C...

Upgrade, upgrades - I did enjoy the humor in this episode (Jack kicking Hammond's wall). And Cags - that's also my favorite line. I only wish Janet could have thrown a sucker punch at Anise.

I've read fanfic where Jack and Sam broke regs with the armbands and I'll grant that it offers the best opportunity, but given what we discover later it wouldn't have fit. This is *the* revelation for them.

Who does Watergate? I'd be curious to see if anyone sees any hint of S/J in that one considering it's the episode before everything comes to light.

[Rachel500]

:: jumps into conversation ::

<snip>

Upgrade, upgrades - I did enjoy the humor in this episode (Jack kicking Hammond's wall). And Cags - that's also my favorite line. I only wish Janet could have thrown a sucker punch at Anise.

I've read fanfic where Jack and Sam broke regs with the armbands and I'll grant that it offers the best opportunity, but given what we discover later it wouldn't have fit. This is *the* revelation for them.

Who does Watergate? I'd be curious to see if anyone sees any hint of S/J in that one considering it's the episode before everything comes to light.

I think (and hope) its Crossroads next. Watergate is the one that follows D&C isn't it? *runs off to check*

EDIT: It is Crossroads next and I'm up. It'll be posted on Monday.

[Nynaeve506]

I think (and hope) its Crossroads next. Watergate is the one that follows D&C isn't it? *runs off to check*

EDIT: It is Crossroads next and I'm up. It'll be posted on Monday.

Dude. So glad you caught that because my next thought was... wait, I think I'm doing "Watergate" and I was like... but that's not until... wait... and then I got distracted by something shiny.

[Cagranosalis]

Crossroads
Divide & Conquer
Window Of Opportunity

then Watergate.



When I said I'd quite like to have seen a Tok'ra / Jack relationship explored I really wasn't necessarily thinking of Anise/Freya, but to have seen him "like" a Tok'ra woman (ordearGodpleaseno, not an androgynous type like Riker did in TNG) and have romantic entanglement with one would have been an interesting conflict for him, given his feelings about them as a whole. Face it the only Tok'ra Jack's ever really liked was Jacob/Selmak and that was because Jacob was from Earth, an ex Air Force General and Sam's dad. Otherwise I doubt he would have been as fond of him either. It would also have worked as a nice deflection for his true feelings towards Sam. We probably would have had the Kerry scenario a whole lot sooner.

[EvenstarSRV]

The second thing that occured to me was: the ending. The Other Side is a Jack/Daniel episode: it's all about their conflict, their way of seeing things, their morals etc, with Sam and Teal'c playing supporting roles. So why the very end is focused on Jack and Sam, not Daniel? It would make more sense in contex of the episode to have Daniel in Sam's place - and yet he isn't.
I think it's just another subtle lead-on to the big revelation in D&C, another way for the writers to show this pairing in a different situation and another proof that the confession in D&C didn't come out of the blue, as some fans insist. I must admit though that I've never noticed exactly how well planned it was.

While the Jack and Daniel conflict is the most prominent in this episode, I think the ending still makes sense because both men put Sam in the middle of their argument. Jack uses Sam to point out their military objective and to handle Daniel by taking him back to the SGC, and Daniel uses Sam to get Hammond to agree to ask more questions. Jack and Daniel resolve their conflict in the bunker, and while Sam comes to agree with Daniel once she sees the bunker schematics, she doesn't really resolve her issue with Jack (re the military objective of getting tech) until the final scene on the ramp.

On the subject of her romance with the guys: I agree that it would be interesting to see Jack attracted to her, for the reasons stated. Daniel less so, I've never seen much potential/chemistry there, but I wouldn't have minded either. Basically I just don't like the idea of the Jack-Anise/Freya -Daniel triangle.

Personally I'm really glad the writers never went with a love triangle, either that one or an Anise/Jack/Sam one. They almost most never turn out well, IMO.

Well they confused me for a bit but the only thing that makes sense is that the forceshields on the outer edge of the complex are not permanent and could only have been activated just after Daniel and Teal'c go through to the outside, presumably as a result of one of those zatted Jaffa ccoming to and raising the alarm. The ones inside, around the core thing, are permanent and were always there - hence Sam pointing them out on the laptop screen when they were back at the SGC. This way it all works, plotwise.

That makes sense, and also works with the idea that Jack didn't know about the force shield at the ship's exit. Of course, IMO Jack's angst in that scene was more about Sam almost being killed in front of him and not whether he had to choose between saving himself or staying with Sam to die, but I'll defer that discussion for D&C.

[Zoser]

Jack standing before the force shield is looking at Sam and listening to the approach of the Jaffa troops. They can't get through the force shield so they don't endanger him but will certainly kill Sam before his eyes before the explosion will kill them all. This always brings to mind Jack's very passionate response to Malikai (talking about seeing his wife) in WOO noting that Malikai would just see her die again.
"I lost my son, I know…and as much as I…I could never live that over again."
Jack nearly lost Carter two episodes before (Upgrades) and I think all of this has played on his mind and spills out here. And by the time Entity rolls around it has dragged Jack to the depths. He shoves all of it in the room and tries to lock it all away. (Lucky for us it doesn't work.)
Maybe I should have waited for WOO for this but...

[JenniferJF]

Jack standing before the force shield is looking at Sam and listening to the approach of the Jaffa troops. They can't get through the force shield so they don't endanger him but will certainly kill Sam before his eyes before the explosion will kill them all. This always brings to mind Jack's very passionate response to Malikai (talking about seeing his wife) in WOO noting that Malikai would just see her die again.
"I lost my son, I know…and as much as I…I could never live that over again."
Jack nearly lost Carter two episodes before (Upgrades) and I think all of this has played on his mind and spills out here. And by the time Entity rolls around it has dragged Jack to the depths. He shoves all of it in the room and tries to lock it all away. (Lucky for us it doesn't work.)

That's exactly as I see it. I think Jack's line in WoO is often overlooked in it's importance, but more as much as anything he says in D&C, that line might explain his actions after S4 better than anything else.

Until, of course, he realizes he's losing her anyway....

[Cagranosalis]

Aw, look, see I'm doing the WoO and you've just gone and stolen my line...


Great observation Zoser. And honestly, I was going to point that out too.

[Rachel500]

Insert Snazzy Banner Here

Crossroads Synopsis: A Jaffa priestess called Shau’nac arrives on Earth, sent by Bra’tac. Teal’c greets her warmly. She requests that they introduce her to the Tok’ra. She claims that she has communicated with the Goa’uld symbiote she carries and has convinced it that the Goa’uld are evil. Her symbiote wishes to join the Tok’ra and share the secrets of the Goa’uld. Teal’c outright denies that communication is possible. She collapses and as she recovers she tells him she expected better from him. She convinces him to try communicating. He requests the rest of SG1 watch over him as he tries.

During a deep kel no reem he communicates with his symbiote who shares the image of his father’s death. Teal’c is convinced and they contact the Tok’ra who send Anise to make an evaluation; she agrees to the plan to find a host for Shau’nac’s symbiote. Teal’c goes to tell Shau’nac and she challenges him again on why he is with the SGC and not on Chulak. He defends himself and he also admits that he fears losing her again. They kiss.

The next morning, Teal’c tells Daniel he will leave the SGC to be with Shau’nac. Sam confirms the Tok’ra have agreed and they leave for Vorash. Shau’nac’s symbiote enters Hebron and introduces himself as Tanith; he seems sincere. Anise confirms that they have a symbiote for Shau’nac to replace the one she has lost. As Shau’nac regains her feet and meets Tanith,
Jack pushes for Tanith to share information and Anise stops him. Tanith has joined the Tok’ra and they will determine which information to share with the Tau’ri. Jack is furious and storms out. Teal’c promises to return to Shau’nac once he has told the Tau’ri of his plans to leave. He leaves and Shau’nac goes to see Tanith who reveals his true nature and kills her.

At the SGC, Teal’c has just informed his team and Hammond of his intention to leave when the gate activates and Anise arrives with the body of Shau’nac. Teal’c is distraught at her death but in his kel no reem he sees again the memory of Cronus killing his father and realises that Shau’nac was murdered. Jack and Teal’c return to tell the Tok’ra and when Anise refuses to let Teal’c have his revenge, Teal’c tries to overpower the Tok’ra guards. She reveals that there is more value in keeping Tanith alive and using him for disinformation. Teal’c agrees and sees Tanith; he promises the Goa’uld that they will meet again.

Favourite Lines:

Jack: Bra’tac...you’ve done something with your hair.
Closely followed by...
Shau’nac; ‘You are O’Neill. Teal’c’s apprentice.’

Favourite Scene:

The scene in Daniel’s office – particularly Jack’s gossip-y side coming out.

General Review/Analysis:

This is a very heavy Teal’c episode and the main relationship on show is Teal’c’s with Shau’nac, with Teal’c and the team as secondary. Firstly, I love this incarnation of Shau’nac (when she comes back as Teal’c’s dream wife Shauna in The Changeling she’s more like Drey’auc really). She’s feisty, strong and independent; she’s not afraid to challenge Teal’c. I actually love the Teal’c/Shau’nac dynamic and would have loved for her to stay around (although I remember thinking on first watch what about Drey'auc – but I’m guessing that Teal’c still considers that their marriage is dissolved even though they seemed to have reconciled at the end of Family). I always get the impression Teal’c and Shau’nac were childhood sweethearts and it’s so heartbreaking when she dies.

I also really like we get to see Teal’c’s Dad (even if it’s his death), and I think this is the first time we see Teal’c go all Jaffa revenge-y. It’s impressive that it takes five Tok’ra to restrain him.

There are some lovely moments between Teal’c and the team – especially when he asks them to stand guard for him, the walk with Daniel after his night with Shau’nac. It’s good stuff. Very teamy.

Sam and Jack

In looking for hints of how their moment in front of the forceshield affected their relationship, well, there’s not much here at all in terms of interaction. They’re sat together in the briefing at the beginning but that’s not unusual (nicely set up with the Jaffa on one side and Teal’c on the other); and sat together during the briefing with Anise when they’re very in synch in terms of their comments. In fact, despite their difference of opinion over the Tok’ra’s philosophy, they’re very much in synch throughout the episode – and perhaps it’s that being in synch that’s the after effect – except they already were very much in synch ever since they came back from their week away so...for me there’s nothing more in their interaction to suggest something of import happened in Upgrades.

The scene in Daniel’s office when they discuss whether Shau’nac and Jack goes gossipy is probably the most time they spend together talking on screen. It is a lovely scene. Two things strike me: one is that the tone between them continues to be very much of equals. That whole scene is played very much as friends gossiping together (despite the work related topic) and that appeals to me. The other thing to note is the topic is Shau’nac and Teal’c’s possible romance and Sam seems amused when Jack talks about major sparkage.

For me, the other note to the ship is in the triangle effect of Anise/Freya – Jack – Sam in the scene where Anise greets them at the Tok’ra base and she does the handshake/kiss thing. There’s a lovely look between Jack and Sam at that point and while Jack’s answer of ‘maybe’ could be deemed interest in kissing Anise/Freya (which is how I think Freya takes it), I always think he’s joking with Sam that her Dad wanted to kiss him.

The one scene that I think shows most the impact of Upgrades on Jack is the scene where the Tok’ra refuse to interrogate Tanith immediately and Anise makes the point that Tanith has joined them not the Tau’ri – and any information he shares will only be shared with Earth as the Tok’ra see fit. Jack is absolutely livid in this scene (and so is Sam – she’s not impressed either and asks if her father knows – he doesn’t). I kind of think Jack’s whole irritation at the Tok’ra in general throughout this episode is where his anger about what happened in Upgrades (with Sam getting trapped and him almost having to watch her die) comes out. He’s scathing about them in the gossip-y scene, pointing out a snake is a snake. And when they say they won’t share info immediately, Jack goes ballistic – he basically accuses them of acting like the Goa’uld, that he can’t trust that he’s talking to the host (and I think his yelling at Anise that he likes Freya may be where she gets the wrong impression he’s interested in her). I definitely think Jack is holding the Tok’ra responsible for almost getting them killed in the previous mission by withholding information and effectively lying to them.

The other scene I want to mention is the scene where Shau’nac’s body is brought back. The positioning is interesting: Shau’nac and Teal’c to the front, Daniel and Jack, and Sam close to them but positioned just behind them so there can't be any interactive looks between Jack and Sam at all. Another note of interest is that Sam does the exact same look down that she does later in Continuum when Daniel starts talking about Charlie (she does it earlier too when Teal’c talks of leaving). When Daniel notes that the translation is ‘our love does not end in death’, Jack in particular looks pained in his close-up shot. I think the loss of Shau’nac kind of brings it home to them again how risky it is for them; how they can lose a loved one so quickly.

[sg-1fanintn]

Just FYI...we've just started voting on the Ship Family Thread on when to hold Valenship...either February 6 or February 13. Please go vote!

We're also looking for a volunteer to design the invitation, sig and avatar! Anyone who wants to volunteer, please let me know!

[Cagranosalis]

Great review again Rachel.

To be honest, Crossroads is one of those episodes I really disliked. I'm not overly fond of heavy Jaffa episodes (with the exception of Reckoning two parter) and the whole thing with Shau'nac just seems a bit hammed up to me. And I also had a problem with the whole Dreay'uc deal since the implication we were left with last we saw her was that Teal'c was at least on the way to reconcilliation. So to me, childhood sweetheart or not, it feels a bit like cheating to me.
Although I do like the scenes at the end between Tanith and Teal'c and the promise in that encounter of an epic showdown. It is a pity that never really played out.

I never really saw any particularly telling interaction between Sam and Jack in the episode myself - certainly not more than general teamlyness and normal them and nothing that hinted at what had happened (which is fine by me since I quite like the fact that D&C is a bombshell). But thatnks for pointing those bits out to me so I can have a reason to watch this peisode again and not be completely meh about it.

[Rachel500]

Great review again Rachel.

To be honest, Crossroads is one of those episodes I really disliked. I'm not overly fond of heavy Jaffa episodes (with the exception of Reckoning two parter) and the whole thing with Shau'nac just seems a bit hammed up to me. And I also had a problem with the whole Dreay'uc deal since the implication we were left with last we saw her was that Teal'c was at least on the way to reconcilliation. So to me, childhood sweetheart or not, it feels a bit like cheating to me.
Although I do like the scenes at the end between Tanith and Teal'c and the promise in that encounter of an epic showdown. It is a pity that never really played out.

I never really saw any particularly telling interaction between Sam and Jack in the episode myself - certainly not more than general teamlyness and normal them and nothing that hinted at what had happened (which is fine by me since I quite like the fact that D&C is a bombshell). But thatnks for pointing those bits out to me so I can have a reason to watch this peisode again and not be completely meh about it.

Thank you

It's not a favourite of mine either despite my liking the dynamic between Teal'c/Shau'nac.

Honestly, I was surprised I wrote as much as I did about the Jack/Sam element

[kusanagi]

Great review Rachel.
This is not one of my favorite episodes either. I'm not into Jaffa episodes at all, and what's more important, there is nothing I could focus on as far as Sam/Jack relationship is concerned. True, there are some interesting dialogues between the characters, but nothing that's different comparing to previous episodes. (exactly what Cagranosalis said )
I'm looking forward to your next review though