Browder's character should OUTRANK Carter

[Madeleine]

Oh, just admit you don't like Sam period, and it will all make sense.

:: shines light in face of suspect ::

Admit it! you're a Sam-hater! You don't like her enough! We have evidence, you've been spotted describing her as Not Much Of A Leader, that's proof that you don't like her!

Seriously now, I have trouble seeing Sam as a leader. Even in the first six and a half seasons when I thought she was fantastic.

Some of the examples given by Spaz:

Foothold - yes she did well, it's my favourite of her eps, but did she *lead*?
PL - maybe she led well, maybe not. all we know of is that she came toverbal blows with Lee.
Evolution - She didn't lead. Dad and Bra'tac did. (Not a fault, given the situation it made sense to defer to them)
Lost City - What command decisions did she make? Maybe she led well but she didn't lead much.
Zero Hour - she disobeyed orders / instructions, and the implication was that she did it cos she was peeved at being 'babysat'. But we didn't see her leadership in action.
Covenant - She did well, but what did she *lead*?
Gemini - She did poorly. And what did she *lead*?
NO, Affinity, Icon, IGtBK, Reckoning - okay, we saw her lead, in small doses. But in the main we saw her leading non SG-1 personel and we never got a chance to see the relationships between the leader and the led coming into play.

In the early years I always saw her as Jack's protegee, and if i'd thought about the future I'd have said that she'd grow into her leadership skills and be ready for her own team one day. Unfortunately because of the nature of the show it wouldn't have been easy for her to get those chances. She's the lowest ranked military officer, below a seasoned and capable leader, and we've been introduced to very few people whom she ever commands.

When people follow Sam, I don't know why they are doing it. Not that I think they shouldn't, but I've never seen an episode that gives me a chance to work out if Teal'c follows Sam's orders because he trusts her implicitly, because she's a friend, because she's a natural leader, because he happens to agree with that specific order, or what. And she's commanded Daniel even less. when Jack was in command many many eps were written to give me a window on why his team follow (or occasionally, don't follow) him.

So partly Sam suffers because the scripts haven't allowed her to lead enough, especially in the last two or three years when I would have been expecting her to lead lots. And partly she suffers because the few times she's been able to lead have been pretty vanilla stuff like the raid in Affinity, where the situation didn't call for her to personalise the leadership of the raid in such a way that I could see Sam's Leadership Skills, rather than Sam's Knowledge Of SOP.

Sam might be leadership material, she might not. I haven't had enough chance to tell. (In eight years! poor Sam.) If Cam *is*, then I'll be thrilled, but we'll only know it if the stories let him lead. And, since Sam is fictional, i won't be bothered about her 'losing out', whatever the onscreen reason they come up with. I care more about good stories than I care that the characters be happy.

All JMO.

[LORD MONK]

Ya, that's right. Lets give the flagship team to someone that has never even stepped through the gate. That makes perfect since.

[the dancer of spaz]

It's kinda hard to compare Jack's leadership skills/style to Sam's when the whole reason for having the show was to have RDA ("the man before the title") lead his team of knucklehead ninnies through the gate. In that regard, Sam was Daniel and Teal'c's equal, so it's hard to decide WHY someone's following Sam's orders, because of that fact. Jack was always meant to be the Ace, the Wild Card, and one step above the others, no matter what they contributed to the show. I'm not saying this is bad, because it was clearly necessary for the evolution of the series, but still...

That's something that could never be remedied over the course of the series. Jack/RDA were meant to be the focus, and it's impossible for anyone to escape that, unfortunately.

[N8ball88]

I think they will need Browder's character to outrank Carter and lead the SG-1 team for season nine.
Why? Well, people will hate me for saying this but Sam simply doesn't have the charisma to carry the show as leader.
We know Jack has slowly turned into a complete imbecile, but RDA had the Charisma to carry the show as its leader.
Carter is a good team player, but she's the better part of an esemble. As a character alone, she's just not that interesting.
I'm now ducking.

I disagree. I think Sam should lead. I'm fairly certain it's not going that direction, but she's got the experience of being on the front line team for nine years, and has proven herself over and over.

[Jonisa]

And, since Sam is fictional, i won't be bothered about her 'losing out', whatever the onscreen reason they come up with. I care more about good stories than I care that the characters be happy.

All JMO.

Exactly.

Characters screw up. They make mistakes. Dreadful things happen to them. They don't always get what we feel they deserve to get. They are put in difficult situations. They love another but are unable to be with that person due to forces beyond their control. They lose people they love.

And we watch and we love it, because their pain is our entertainment.

Daniel will probably never get the recognition from his peers that he deserves. He may never get to go to Atlantis, which with his love of exploration, is something he dearly wants to do.

Teal'c may very well never be be the leader of his people that he would like to be, as he is torn between the SGC and the Jaffa.

For those shippers out there, without Jack around this season, Jack and Sam can't be together on the show.

Mitchell--well, we don't know him well enough to know what drives him, and what is missing from his life, but I sure hope there's something, otherwise he'll be dull, dull, dull.

Sam may not get to lead SG-1. Personally, I hope she doesn't, because I think there's more conflict and drama inherent in that scenario than her taking command. That doesn't necessarily mean I don't like the character, or that I think she's unfit for command. I do like her. Not as much in recent years, but my opinions on characters tend to go up and down as I follow the storyline.

I don't think it's a slam on her character saying that she shouldn't lead the team anymore than it's a slam on Daniel's to say that he can be stubborn and a bit of primadonna. It's an opinion, and one I share. I think it has the possibility to lead to more interesting stories.

Also, what on earth will Cameron Mitchell do if he doesn't lead? I haven't seen anyone come up with an answer to this other than, "Stand there, make sarcastic comments from time to time, and look pretty. Oh... and shoot his guns."

[Tucker Case]

So partly Sam suffers because the scripts haven't allowed her to lead enough, especially in the last two or three years when I would have been expecting her to lead lots. And partly she suffers because the few times she's been able to lead have been pretty vanilla stuff like the raid in Affinity, where the situation didn't call for her to personalise the leadership of the raid in such a way that I could see Sam's Leadership Skills, rather than Sam's Knowledge Of SOP.

That's been the real sticking point for me, even when the writers have bothered to show Sam as a half-way competent soldier: The complete lack of personalisation. She's been a functional leader, at best. Her "knowledge of SOP" is only trotted out at that point in the story where they have no choice but to let her do her job, when Jack is no longer (or is not yet) an option for them and they can twist the story no further to keep him in the O' Captain, My Captain role (and I thought 'Icon' was easily the worst offender on that front: In the end, it was a better demonstration of Daniel's leadership skills than it was Sam's, while throughout the episode it was Jack who was written as the commander whose teammate and friend was missing, who acted, reacted and directed his subordinates - Carter included - accordingly).

And you're right, I think, in that this doesn’t really say as much about Carter’s fitness to lead (or lack thereof), or even her "charisma," as it does the PTB’s unwillingness to write her in the role of team leader. I think they have very little interest in her as a soldier, period.

Heck, give these guys an AU to play in and the first thing they’ll do, every time, is write Carter out of the military altogether (Daniel, of course, they take right out of the SGC, poor dear). They’ll sacrifice that aspect of her character every chance they get, in order to play at romance with her instead. If there’s a hierarchy of Carter attributes TPTB subscribe to, it’s Scientist first, Romantic Heroine second, and Soldier third.

But that’s their choice. It isn’t the final word on what they could have done with Carter, merely what they did (which isn't to say it hasn’t left it’s mark on the audience).

It was the soldier in Carter who took the hit when the writers opted for the “Hallmark Presents: Samantha Carter” approach to writing her. Who knows, now that this angle has, allegedly (please, please, please) fallen by the wayside, it might be the soldier in her that comes roaring back.

Too little, too late for some, I suppose, and it may never overtake the scientist in her (or the leader in Mitchell), but a resurgence is still possible.

Though the timing might be a bit on the ironic side.

Wouldn't that be something. They bring in a character they are willing to write in the leadership role, just in time for Carter to get her soldier on again.

Tucker

[jckfan55]

I've been following these exchanges for quite a while but haven't weighed in much. My view is that Sam can be a capable leader, though instances of seeing her in that mode have been very sporadic. I would have no problem with her character commanding the team from a competency standpoint. But as much of a Sam fan as I am, I do see the point from a tv show standpoint that if they're bringing in a new character and making him a Lt. Colonel, it makes sense for him to take more of the "military" role and for her to continue in her "brainiac" role. My hope is that the writers manage a scenario where the character of Sam is respected. Perhaps that it is *her* choice to defer to Mitchell as the official head of the team. I suspect they will have more of a partnership approach. It will be interesting to see in August.

Now if they had brought Mitchell in as a Sgt. (maybe a Marine), things would be different. Sam would be in command, but might rely on the seasoned Sgt. for advice. That could have been an interesting dyamic, but I think TPTB, wanted a guy in charge.

Which brings to mind the argument some have made about it being unrealistic for a woman to be in combat. IMO, it's hard to go there because as someone earlier mentioned, the composition of SG1 is hardly standard military. Say from season 3 (?) on--a full colonel, a major and 2 civilians. Doesn't bother me, but not exactly standard.

[SueS]

All we know about Cam Mitchell at this point is that he is a fighter pilot who was injured in the battle over Antarctica. Does that prove he is ready to command?

I think there needs to be some clarification here.

"The season premiere introduces Cameron Mitchell as the heroic F-302 pilot who led the Earth's defense during the season seven finale, Lost City, and enthusiastically sought his assignment to SG-1." (The Official Stargate Magazine, July/Aug 2005, p. 17)

Mitchell was not just a fighter pilot who was injured in the battle over Antarctica, he led the air assault against Anubis. So, he is not being written as someone who needs to prove whether or not he's ready for command, he's being written as someone who has already been in a command position. Also, considering that the fate of the whole world was going to be determined by the outcome of this battle, I doubt that the AF would give command of the air assault to someone who was a rookie. So, I'm going to assume that the Battle over Antarctica was not Mitchell's first command assignment.

It seems like the debate should be over the skills and experience of each person. When put in this perspective, don't you think that the proven officer would keep his/her command? It seems like a no-brainer.

I think it's a little more complicated than that. Perhaps, I'm misinterpreting what you are saying here, but based on this statement, you seem to be assuming that Mitchell is less skilled and/or less experienced than Carter. However, aside from knowing that he led the aerial assault on Anubis over Antarctica, we currently have nothing else on which to judgement whether or not he is more or less skilled, or more or less experienced than any other person at the SGC to have a command position. So, we cannot assume that he is less skilled and/or less experienced than anyone else. The only thing I am going to assume at the moment is that the writers will show us that he is qualified. In fact, the July/Aug issue of Stargate Magazine says "Mitchell's debut adventure includes flashbacks to the character's past, which establishes his back-story and long-standing involvement with the Stargate Program." (p. 18), so I am confident that we are going to see proof that Mitchell is a "proven officer".

As far as "proven officer" I assume you meant Carter. So, the question "don't you think that the proven officer would keep his/her command?" seems to imply that Mitchel is taking command away from Carter. However, there is nothing in the spoilers to indicate that this is the case.

While recovering from his injuries, Mitchell is promised a position on SG-1. (JMO, but I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that the reason Jack didn't want to assign a fourth member to the team in S8, was because he had promised Mitchell that assignment.). But, when Mitchell arrives at the SGC he finds out that the team has been disbanded. Daniel is getting ready to go to Atlantis, Teal'c is on Dakara helping to establish the new Free Jaffa Nation, and Sam is looking after Area 51 and helping Cassie deal with her mom's death. Landry hands Mitchell a stack of papers and tells him to put his team together. So, this is not a situation where Mitchell is taking command away from Carter.

Since this is now Mitchell's team, then when Carter returns she will be under his command.

That's why people who do like/respect Carter suspect sexism/Browder favoritism among those who believe BB should lead SG-1. It's as simple as that.

Well, I think the character of Lt. Col. Cameron Mitchell should be given command of SG-1. However, I've never watched Farscape, never heard of Ben Browder until I found out that he had been given a role on Stargate, so I don't think I could be accused of Browder favoritism.

Also, I like Carter, I just don't see her as leadership material. Perhaps this is because I don't have a lot of respect for some her actions or command decisions in S8.


SueS

[the dancer of spaz]

Not to be off-topic, but I thought I'd pop right on in here and remind everyone - you know, as if ANY of us needs reminding - that we have a little over 2 days (48 hours) before the season premiere airs!

Everything that's been brought up in this thread has some merit. But we have to agree that we won't know what's going on until Friday. GW will be a buzz, the forum will probably come close to crashing, and there will be "discussions" (i.e. debates) galore. Personally... I can't wait.

See ya Friday!

[Lightsabre]

That's been the real sticking point for me, even when the writers have bothered to show Sam as a half-way competent soldier: The complete lack of personalisation. She's been a functional leader, at best. Her "knowledge of SOP" is only trotted out at that point in the story where they have no choice but to let her do her job, when Jack is no longer (or is not yet) an option for them and they can twist the story no further to keep him in the O' Captain, My Captain role (and I thought 'Icon' was easily the worst offender on that front: In the end, it was a better demonstration of Daniel's leadership skills than it was Sam's, while throughout the episode it was Jack who was written as the commander whose teammate and friend was missing, who acted, reacted and directed his subordinates - Carter included - accordingly).

And you're right, I think, in that this doesn’t really say as much about Carter’s fitness to lead (or lack thereof), or even her "charisma," as it does the PTB’s unwillingness to write her in the role of team leader. I think they have very little interest in her as a soldier, period.

Heck, give these guys an AU to play in and the first thing they’ll do, every time, is write Carter out of the military altogether (Daniel, of course, they take right out of the SGC, poor dear). They’ll sacrifice that aspect of her character every chance they get, in order to play at romance with her instead. If there’s a hierarchy of Carter attributes TPTB subscribe to, it’s Scientist first, Romantic Heroine second, and Soldier third.

But that’s their choice. It isn’t the final word on what they could have done with Carter, merely what they did (which isn't to say it hasn’t left it’s mark on the audience).

It was the soldier in Carter who took the hit when the writers opted for the “Hallmark Presents: Samantha Carter” approach to writing her. Who knows, now that this angle has, allegedly (please, please, please) fallen by the wayside, it might be the soldier in her that comes roaring back.

Too little, too late for some, I suppose, and it may never overtake the scientist in her (or the leader in Mitchell), but a resurgence is still possible.

Though the timing might be a bit on the ironic side.

Wouldn't that be something. They bring in a character they are willing to write in the leadership role, just in time for Carter to get her soldier on again.

Tucker

Ah but the reason the 'soldier' in sam has taken a hit is the fact that she has too many sides.
There's the woman side, the military side, the scientist side.
TPTB don't have another female character to do things with, so Sam has to take on that burden. Then she also has the scientist burden. They have a soldier and not much else in Jack, and Teal'c.
So, it's no suprise that there aren't many soldier scenario's for Sam. If they write a soldier scenario, it's almost always Jack/Teal'c. Why?
Cause they have nothing else. Same with Daniel. All of his story arcs relate back to his work in archeology.
As a char, Sam has had the most wide ranging story arcs, imho.
But in a character as overloaded as Carter, something had ot be sacrificed. That was the 'soldier' side.

[binkpmmc]

My only opinion after monthss of this is that IF mitchell remains in charge of SG1 after Carter returns it is because SAMANTHA Carter could not be a leading MAN and therefore, the suits and TPTB do what they do because of irrational fears and because they are now pandering to a certain demographic (I wonder if the suits and TPTB know that pandering is not attractive?) Anyway, this is not a statement as to whether anyone here is anti-Carter or anti-female leader or sexist or anything else - this is my opinion on why mitchell remains in charge IF that turns out to be the case.

I also think that his "backstory" it is all to forced, phony and waay too convenient. IMO it is wholly unbeliveable that a guy who is supposed to be a hero in the SGC program and a "friend" to, or "known to" the members of the real SG1 was never ONCE mentioned in 8 years but he miraculously appears to be the hero, the friend and the new leader because he has sooo much experience in the Stargate program (last time I looked there was only ONE SGC where the Stargate program is based and to have NEVER heard of this guy just makes it another one of TPTB desperate plot devices at the expense of the characters (in this case Carter). I can see the handwriting of a certain someone all over this one.

I said it before and I'll say it again - if there was to be a newly formed SG1 why should we believe that this new guy should get the posting - am I to believe, on top of all the forced and phony backstory for this guy that there was not ONE Major, Lt. Colonel or Colonel from the other SG teams who could have been given command of SG1, if it was necessary? This all just reeks of we wanted browder cuz he's the name, so we hired him (no audition necessary - sorry unless they show me the audition tape there is absolutely no way in he__ this guy auditioned), oh and BTW he's too big to put in a secondary role to a WOMAN (God forbid) so let's make up a phony story that the lemmings will all buy and love (and if they don't they are unintelligent, useless fans that we don't care about because we don't need them anyway - we have our nice new shiny toy and our nice new Farscape fans). Then let's have a PR blitz that makes it seem like SG1 was a hack show BEFORE browder and black came to pass and ignore the fact that there are 3 main characters returning whose blood and sweat have made the show a hit for Skiffy for 5 years (along with the fans of the PAST 8 years) but God Forbid they acknowledge those 2 points - it's all browder, all the time, at the expense of the other actors (TPTB sacrifice actors as well as characters). Finally, they completley and totally ignore the FACT that Carter was the leader of SG1 in season 8 (regardless of whether it was good or bad or whether it was opportunity wasted by TPTB with the sorry a$$ stories they worte for the character - she was in FACT the leader of SG1) and have the PR machine indicate that browder's mitchell is replacing O'Neill as the leader of the team - what a bunch of hooey - how stupid do TPTB think the fans of the PAST 8 years are? It's a cool trick that browder is replacing O'Neill on SG1 at the same time Bridges is replacing O'Neill as head of the SGC - I never before realized that in the world of SG1 they had actually cloned O'Neill so he could be 2 places, and fill 2 roles, at once - amazing (it must be that his little mini-me from FB grew up really, really fast, jut like babies in soap operas are one day babies and the next day young adults, and became the leader of SG1 and no one told Carter or the fans of the PAST 8 years). Gotta sell the new leading MAN as if he is the replacement for the old leading MAN crap (but the fans of the PAST 8 years know this is not true because they are NOT as dumb as TPTB and suits think they are - TPTB and suits are too busy pandering so they are locked into the dumb-it down mode and they tend to forget that there are intelligent people who have been watching for the PAST 8 years.) This is why it irks me . . . .

All of the above is my opinion and I am irked and I am cynical and I believe this is the ploy TPTB and suits are going with in their PR campaign and the game they are playing. Again, if I am wrong I will come back here and admit it - somehow I feel comfortable saying that I do not think I have to worry and I do not think I will ever see the inside of this thread again as TPTB have not given me any reason to believe . . . .)

As to whether Carter is fit to command, if some feel she is not once again it is TPTB that have managed to drag down a once strong, respected character . . . . It is unfortunate that they chose to spend so much time pummelling this character with storylines that they (the writers) were completely incapable of writing and pulling off (TPTB). Perhaps if they had hired the writers from Days Of Our Lives or All My Children to write Carter's story arcs over the past season and a half or so it would have been received better . . . .

[Lightsabre]

My only opinion after monthss of this is that IF mitchell remains in charge of SG1 after Carter returns it is because SAMANTHA Carter could not be a leading MAN and therefore, the suits and TPTB do what they do because of irrational fears and because they pander to a certain demographic (I wonder if the suits and TPTB know that andering is not attractive?) Anyway, this is not a statement as to whether anyone here is anti-Carter or anti-female leader or sexist or anything else - this is my opinion on why mitchell remains in charge IF that turns out to be the case. There once was a point in time when I would have given TPTB the benefit of the doubt however, they have done nothing in the past 2 seasons to indicate that they want to fix some of the crap they have pulled out of their a$$es over the past 2 seasons so I have no faith at this point. I will, of course, return here to eat my hat IF TPTB do fix anything that IMO is crap from the past 2 seasons.

As to whether Carter is fit to command, if some feel she is not once again it is TPTB that have managed to drag down a once strong, respected character . . . . It is unfortunate that they chose to spend so much time pummelling this character with storylines that they (TPTB) were completely incapable of writing. Perhaps if they had hired the writers from Days Of Our Lives or All My Children to write Carter's story arcs over the past season and a half or so it would have been received better . . . .

So if Mitchell keeps command, it's cause TPTB are sexist and pandering to the male demographic, but if Carter gets command back, that's not??
If Carter gets command back in Beach Head, that will be simply TPTB pandering to a different crowd.

[Kalliope]

What exactly is the purpose of this ping pong game?

[Tucker Case]

Ah but the reason the 'soldier' in sam has taken a hit is the fact that she has too many sides.
There's the woman side, the military side, the scientist side.

She can't just be a woman while she's a scientist or a soldier? They had to write a "Hallmark Presents..." story for her that had nothing to do with the military, science or the overall Stargate story arc in order to explore her "femininity?"

TPTB don't have another female character to do things with, so Sam has to take on that burden.

Well, thankfullly we'll have Vala and Lam to take some of the load off her next season.

Of course, no one "had" to take on that burden, any more than any of the guys had to be set aside to have their masculinity "ripped open" and explored for no reason except...well, for no reason. Somehow, they grew within the context of bigger story arcs. *cues moment of silence for of the late, lamented Jolinar arc*

They have a soldier and not much else in Jack, and Teal'c.

Really? That's all there is to those characters? A couple of soldiers with nothing else to recommend them to the story?

Same with Daniel. All of his story arcs relate back to his work in archeology.

Yeah, that whole ascension thing is all the rage in archaeological circles.

As a char, Sam has had the most wide ranging story arcs, imho.

Well, there's quantity and then there's quality...

But in a character as overloaded as Carter, something had ot be sacrificed. That was the 'soldier' side.

"Was," apparently, being the operative word.

Word is the extra-curricular lollygagging about in her personal life is on the chopping block now. (I repeat: Please, please, please...)

Tucker

[Tucker Case]

What exactly is the purpose of this ping pong game?

It keeps us amused and I suck at badminton?

Tucker