Browder's character should OUTRANK Carter

[Crichton]

I agree with Lightsabre that Sam shouldn't lead SG-1. He brings up a good point about leadership as a personality trait...one that Sam does not naturally excel at.

No one would say that Sam is not skilled since she's the one that provides the ideas and scientific knowledge that help solve 70% of SG-1's problems. But I still think that she should have to run those brilliant ideas past someone else first.

From a creative standpoint, (as far as creating a Sci-Fi show) it just makes the characters more interesting. There was a great balance in the original SG-1 team because they all played a vital role. Having Sam take command would upset that balance. I like the idea of a purely military character like O'Neil-not caught up in Science (Sam)-Anthropology (Daniel)-or personal or political motives (Teal'c). Mitchell can only fill this role if he's the ranking officer...even if they're both Colonel's and he's just done it longer.

[ForeverSg1]

*Back from a long absence. Can't wait to see how Friday goes down in this thread and in others.*

Hey, Lightsabre? Could you bring some examples into that little statement, please? You know... just to make it more credible. No need to take this as an attack... I just want to understand where you're coming from. Think of this as a discussion. For adults.

Just a warning... I'm nothing if not thorough.

First, let's look at Spirits. This was Sam's first command after Jack was hit by a trinium arrow and was hospitalized. The mission? To find the lost SG-11 and gain some ground on some important trinium ore. Not only did Sam find SG-11 (despite the fact that Tonane asks them to talk to animals), but she got them home safely so they could ask Hammond about what to do about Tonane's people and the trinium situation. However, it's Hammond's attitude (he wanted to take it once they migrated) that got the SGC into trouble when the powerful aliens who had stowed away overheard the conversation. If I'm not mistaken, Daniel AND Sam were opposed to the idea.

Now, Sam was beamed away like several other SGC members, which allowed Jack to suddenly make a miraculous recovery and save the day. Whoot.

Going back a bit, let's look at Season One's Hathor. It's by no means an average fan's favorite, but it touches on that bit about biology that Sam mentioned in COTG. Sam wasn't officially given command, but she was the next obvious choice seeing as how the men were... otherwise occupied. In this case, Sam, Janet, Teal'c, and the few other women around the base ended up saving the men from being Jaffa-fied and the planet from being overrun by the Goddess of Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll.

Bumping up to Season Three's Foothold, Sam's (and essentially Teal'c's) own curse ended up being the only thing that kept the aliens from assuming the identity of everyone in the SGC and taking over the world. Again, Sam wasn't given official command, but desperate times... In this case, she followed her gut and got a hold of Maybourne, followed her gut again in not trusting the alien versions of Jack and Daniel, and followed her scientific gut in finding a way to reverse the effects the aliens have. Another catastrophe averted because Sam managed to stay on her toes.

We pretty much don't see anything else until Season Six's Nightwalkers. Again, many fans would agree that it could have been better, but hey so could have "Shades of Grey." Anyway... Sam was officially leading the team. They found out what's going on in the small town. They figured out how to stop it, Sam was mini-Goa'ulded, but managed to kill it with the chemical they'd found, and played Goa'uld up until the end - which is where she eliminated everyone involved and was able to provide a great deal of damage control in the small town.

Paradise Lost shows Sam in command. Her treatment of Dr. Lee was harsh, but her expectations for that team weren't any higher than what she'd placed for herself - no matter who it was being found.

Season Seven's Evolution Part II had Sam officially leading the mission, although Jacob and Bra'tac were definitely in charge. Nevertheless, Sam had her moments, and she and Teal'c could both say that they delayed Anubis' little Super Soldier factory for the time being. And, as they were quick to point out, they all made it out alive.

The Lost City, also known as the best episode of season seven , was a bit crazy. A lot of stuff happened. Jack didn't relinquish command until right before he stopped talking altogether. What did Sam do wrong in this episode?

New Order Part I. I suppose it all went to pot when Sam was beamed up into Fifth's ship because of her actions from a year before - actions that involved her following a direct order. A direct order given by Jack. An understandable and logical order given by Jack, but a direct order, nonetheless. Still don't see what Sam did wrong here, but maybe you could tell me.

Season Eight's Zero Hour showed Sam in command for approximately 30 seconds, but it was clear that Sam did nothing wrong in her attempt to get the team back to the Gate. They had no knowledge of what had been going on while they were underground. They'd found Anubis' secret base (mission objective), but were unable to get out again - as is usual when dealing with SG-1. The only reason why the SGC was so easily deceived was because Ba'al's people intercepted radio chatter - and THAT was most likely SG-3's, considering SG-1 was incommunicado. What did Sam do wrong here? Well, I suppose she failed to predict the future. That can be pretty annoying sometimes.

Icon showed Sam in command for slightly longer than 30 seconds. I'd say at least five or ten minutes. Now, it should be noted that Sam led SGs 3, 6 and 12 to successfully find Daniel and new allies, and infiltrate the secret facility that held the lovely cult leader.

In Affinity, Sam and Daniel (and Pete) helped clear Teal'c for murder and kidnapping. They find out about The Trust. Sam does nothing in this episode that jeopardizes the lives of other people.

Covenant got Sam some national air time while she helped deceive the world WITHOUT really deceiving it about the existence of aliens. Her quick delivery on live television publicly discredited the big-mouth billionnaire, and she ended up convincing the brilliant (albeit naive) scientist to join the SGC's side.

Gemini. Sam got too close to the situation and let her emotions get in the way (compare this to Jack's behavior in "Red Sky" or "The Other Side"). She didn't go against Jack's orders, and Jack's own desire to trust Sam and get the information clouded his initial judgment as well.

It's Good To Be King: Her leadership was interrupted by a rather welcome implementation of Jack, but her handling of the situation up to that point was spot on. She probably should have shot Maybourne just for GP, though.

The Reckonings. I'm lost here. We all know how that panned out. So, can you tell me what she did that "balled up" that mission? Was it before or after she and Jacob deciphered the weapon on Dakara and wiped out the Replicators?

Hmmm... Now that I look at all of these instances, I think I see what you're saying here... Sam is definitely bad at any sort of command.

You go Spaz!!! Now if someone else wouldn't mind showing us a few examples of Mitchell's achievments as commander so we could do some thorough comparing???

Mitchell may lead SG-1 for one reason or another at the beginning of season nine, but in the end, the only true reason is because SciFi wants a leading man to command SG-1. Neither Sam nor Cam's credentials will have anything to do with the outcome.

Will Mitchell lead? It's a very good possibility.
Does Mitchell deserve to lead? Hell no!

[Lightsabre]

You go Spaz!!! Now if someone else wouldn't mind showing us a few examples of Mitchell's achievments as commander so we could do some thorough comparing???

Mitchell may lead SG-1 for one reason or another at the beginning of season nine, but in the end, the only true reason is because SciFi wants a leading man to command SG-1. Neither Sam nor Cam's credentials will have anything to do with the outcome.

Will Mitchell lead? It's a very good possibility.
Does Mitchell deserve to lead? Hell no!

Since he's a new char, that's kinda hard.
Well we know he sucessfully led the fighter wing against Anubis.

As to deserving to lead, where does this crap come from?
If carter got shot in the head in Avalon, would they say "Well now NO ONE deserves to lead SG-1. Oh well"
Of course not. Carter doesn't own command of SG-1.

[the dancer of spaz]

Lightsabre, I'm not gonna rebut every statement you've made because I think it's rather petty (and time consuming), and I don't want you to feel like you have to defend yourself or your opinion to me.

However, if you're looking to debate an issue - something you've proven you like to do on this thread - then it's nice to have some kind of evidence that extends beyond "imo." I don't say that to be (completely) snarky and of course it's not a requisite or anything. I say this because I've had this discussion with you before, and maybe if I see what you're talking about, it'll give me an idea of where you're coming from when you say these things.

A lot of the stuff that happens on Stargate can be accepted in a terribly subjective way. Sometimes something will happen in an episode and it'll just rub someone the wrong way. I totally get that. It's happened to me, too. However this is an extensive issue we're dealing with here - something that spans over the course of eight years - and I'd really like to find some middle ground with you somewhere. It doesn't have to be completely steady ground, but I like the idea of seeing eye to eye with people who have differing opinions from my own.

I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard, either.

[sg-1fanintn]

I do. But I get tired of random crap like "SHe's saved the world hundreds of times' being yelled at me. I don't think sam's a good leader and I shouldn't have to defend myself(not my opinion, but myself) constantly becuase of it.

Usual disclaimer: this is my opinion. LIke it or hate it, I'm entitled to have it.

Ah so we agree. Good to have you on board

Oh, just admit you don't like Sam period, and it will all make sense.

[Lightsabre]

Lightsabre, I'm not gonna rebut every statement you've made because I think it's rather petty (and time consuming), and I don't want you to feel like you have to defend yourself or your opinion to me.

However, if you're looking to debate an issue - something you've proven you like to do on this thread - then it's nice to have some kind of evidence that extends beyond "imo." I don't say that to be (completely) snarky and of course it's not a requisite or anything. I say this because I've had this discussion with you before, and maybe if I see what you're talking about, it'll give me an idea of where you're coming from when you say these things.

A lot of the stuff that happens on Stargate can be accepted in a terribly subjective way. Sometimes something will happen in an episode and it'll just rub someone the wrong way. I totally get that. It's happened to me, too. However this is an extensive issue we're dealing with here - something that spans over the course of eight years - and I'd really like to find some middle ground with you somewhere. It doesn't have to be completely steady ground, but I like the idea of seeing eye to eye with people who have differing opinions from my own.

I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard, either.

Dancer,
I know what you are saying. But the fact is, anytime I don't praise Carter on this thread, people like Incessant Babbler start of on 'Carter is so great' rant.
Or take personal shots.
It's hard, in that environment, to give my opinion without feeling attack and like I have to justify it.
On the leadership issue, what proof would you like??
you mentioned times you obviously thought she did well, I offered my opinions on those times.
This is all subjective. You may have thought Carter was a great leader in Lost CIty, I didn't.
I like Carter, I think she's a great character and (if she weren't fictional) a nice person.
But I don't see her as a leader. ANd I really, really don't think she has effective veto on teh leadership of SG-1.
THat is my opinion, it's how I feel.
I don't need to justify it at all, it's an opinion.
I've tried to explain my reasoning, but I, and those who agree with me (fully or in part) just get shouted down by Carter fans.
The only thing that upsets me is the constant thread that I'm a sexist or I'm unreasonable.
End of story, you think carter should lead, I don't.
Let's agree to disagree on that. I'm happy to debate the point, but not likely to change my mind.

[Lightsabre]

Oh, just admit you don't like Sam period, and it will all make sense.

I like Sam, just don't think she's a leader.
Why can you not understand that.
And for that matter, why is it important if I like her or not???

[sg-1fanintn]

I like Sam, just don't think she's a leader.
Why can you not understand that.
And for that matter, why is it important if I like her or not???

Simply that it's harder to appreciate an individual's attributes if there's something about him/her you don't like.

There are many types of leadership.....authoritarian, cooperative, coercive, etc. Different approaches produce different results. The only thing I don't understand about this argument (and I'm not arguing; just stating) is this: a proven, decorated officer who has previously led his/her team could retain his/her leadership role or be usurped by a newcomer of the same rank with absolutely no experience on the team/mission specifics. All we know about Cam Mitchell at this point is that he is a fighter pilot who was injured in the battle over Antarctica. Does that prove he is ready to command? It seems like the debate should be over the skills and experience of each person. When put in this perspective, don't you think that the proven officer would keep his/her command? It seems like a no-brainer.

That's why people who do like/respect Carter suspect sexism/Browder favoritism among those who believe BB should lead SG-1. It's as simple as that.

[the dancer of spaz]

Dancer,
I know what you are saying. But the fact is, anytime I don't praise Carter on this thread, people like Incessant Babbler start of on 'Carter is so great' rant.
Or take personal shots.
It's hard, in that environment, to give my opinion without feeling attack and like I have to justify it.
On the leadership issue, what proof would you like??
you mentioned times you obviously thought she did well, I offered my opinions on those times.
This is all subjective. You may have thought Carter was a great leader in Lost CIty, I didn't.
I like Carter, I think she's a great character and (if she weren't fictional) a nice person.
But I don't see her as a leader. ANd I really, really don't think she has effective veto on teh leadership of SG-1.
THat is my opinion, it's how I feel.
I don't need to justify it at all, it's an opinion.
I've tried to explain my reasoning, but I, and those who agree with me (fully or in part) just get shouted down by Carter fans.
The only thing that upsets me is the constant thread that I'm a sexist or I'm unreasonable.
End of story, you think carter should lead, I don't.
Let's agree to disagree on that. I'm happy to debate the point, but not likely to change my mind.

I think you're a bit too sensitive. Not everything is an attack. We all get a bit excited sometimes, and sometimes I use too many caps here, or Incessant Babbler comes up with a snarky comment there, or sg1-fanintn brings up with an interesting point there... And you look at it like some kind of action/battle launched solely from Carter fans. I don't know how many times I have to say that I'm a team fan. As much as I appreciate Carter, I don't want her "superiority" to be there if it sacrifices the whole team. Turns out that it won't, though, so...

OK. Again, I don't expect you to justify why you feel the way you do. So, you're right, we can just agree to disagree and call it a day. I'm really interested to see what they decide to do with this season. The speculation is killing me!

And don't worry: I never entered this debate with the delusion of changing your mind.

[Lightsabre]

Simply that it's harder to appreciate an individual's attributes if there's something about him/her you don't like.

There are many types of leadership.....authoritarian, cooperative, coercive, etc. Different approaches produce different results. The only thing I don't understand about this argument (and I'm not arguing; just stating) is this: a proven, decorated officer who has previously led his/her team could retain his/her leadership role or be usurped by a newcomer of the same rank with absolutely no experience on the team/mission specifics. Realistically, I think the proven officer would keep his/her command. It seems like a no-brainer.

That's why people who do like/respect Carter suspect sexism/Browder favoritism among those who believe BB should lead SG-1. It's as simple as that.

ANd what I am saying is that
1)I don't think that Carter has proven she can lead the team.
2)Yes, in the real world, the proven officer would keep their command. This is TV, it doesn't always mirror the real world.
3)This is not my decision, I am not sexist and it's not my fault it was done this way. Stop taking it out on me.
4)What the hell else is BB supposed to do on the team if he doesn't lead??

[sg-1fanintn]

ANd what I am saying is that
1)I don't think that Carter has proven she can lead the team.
2)Yes, in the real world, the proven officer would keep their command. This is TV, it doesn't always mirror the real world.
3)This is not my decision, I am not sexist and it's not my fault it was done this way. Stop taking it out on me.
4)What the hell else is BB supposed to do on the team if he doesn't lead??

Please, we're having a discussion.....a debate. No one has been abusive here. We're just discussing the finer points of leadership. In answer to the questions you pose above:
1) Cam hasn't proven he can lead the team either. All we know about him is that he is a fighter pilot who was injured in the battle over Antarctiva.
2) I don't have an answer for this. Everyone's always talking about how Stargate should mirror how the military operates, yet you reject the realistic scenario.
3) No one said you were any of those things. You just asked why people assumed your arguments were sexist, and I simply stated how those impressions were created.
4) Learn from those who have come before.....and have the experience. That's what he tells Jack he wants to do in the S9 promo....."learn from the best." Now's his chance.

I'm sorry you feel attacked. That's not my intention. But you stated a very strong argument against one character, and I'm simply refuting the points that I believe soundly contradict your argument. Basic debate. That's all. It's not a personal attack. Even you have admitted that my argument is the more likely real-life scenario. That's how some of us have gotten the impression that you either:

A. Don't like Carter or
B. Don't think a woman is qualified to lead.

[the dancer of spaz]

ANd what I am saying is that
1)I don't think that Carter has proven she can lead the team.
2)Yes, in the real world, the proven officer would keep their command. This is TV, it doesn't always mirror the real world.
3)This is not my decision, I am not sexist and it's not my fault it was done this way. Stop taking it out on me.
4)What the hell else is BB supposed to do on the team if he doesn't lead??

This is kinda contradictory to what you've said before. I believe you said that in the "real world," it's unlikely for a woman to be in the frontlines (this argument is confusing, I might add, but whatever), and in RL there's no such thing as joint command, so it'll never occur in Stargate.

So, now you're saying that it's OK for TV to not mirror the real world? When IS it OK for TV to not mirror the real world, by your standards?

Is there a checklist they have to fill out or an annual fee? Just curious...

Secondly, if they want to give BB special powers, it's totally within their right. You know, there's no requirement here. I think Mitchell will be fine just the way he is. This doesn't have to be a competition. What the heck did Jack have? The ability to come up with some funny one-liners when everything went south? If it hadn't been for his encounter with the brain-sucker, he wouldn't have been any different than Mitchell is now, and the Asgards probably wouldn't have known that there was anything special about him.

[Lightsabre]

This is kinda contradictory to what you've said before. I believe you said that in the "real world," it's unlikely for a woman to be in the frontlines (this argument is confusing, I might add, but whatever), and in RL there's no such thing as joint command, so it'll never occur in Stargate.

Ok, the frontlines thing was in response to someone arguing about realism.
My argument was SG-1 is primarily an exploration team, not combat.
I did not say Carter or woman, I said officer. And it's true.
In the real world the proven officer would keep command and it's unlikely for the officer of a frontline infantry combat unit to be a woman.
No contradictions there.

So, now you're saying that it's OK for TV to not mirror the real world? When IS it OK for TV to not mirror the real world, by your standards?

Huh??

Is there a checklist they have to fill out or an annual fee? Just curious...

Again, huh??

Secondly, if they want to give BB special powers, it's totally within their right. You know, there's no requirement here. I think Mitchell will be fine just the way he is. This doesn't have to be a competition. What the heck did Jack have? The ability to come up with some funny one-liners when everything went south? If it hadn't been for his encounter with the brain-sucker, he wouldn't have been any different than Mitchell is now, and the Asgards probably wouldn't have known that there was anything special about him.

oooookay

[Lightsabre]

We're just discussing the finer points of leadership. In answer to the questions you pose above:
1) Cam hasn't proven he can lead the team either. All we know about him is that he is a fighter pilot who was injured in the battle over Antarctiva.

I'm willing to give him a chance to prove he can. You don't seem to be

2) I don't have an answer for this. Everyone's always talking about how Stargate should mirror how the military operates, yet you reject the realistic scenario.

But yours isn't. Carter leaves. If she was still in charge, then yes, she is most likely to keep it. But she isn't.
So your scenario involves reassigning someone somewhere else with (presumably) command responsibilities and also having them keep de facto command responsibilities elsewhere, to be taken up whenever they wish.
THat is not realistic at all.

3) No one said you were any of those things. You just asked why people assumed your arguments were sexist, and I simply stated how those impressions were created.

Actually, several people over this thread have said exactly that.

4) Learn from those who have come before.....and have the experience. That's what he tells Jack he wants to do in the S9 promo....."learn from the best." Now's his chance.

HOW? they aren't there anymore, they quit, left, disbanded. When mitchell rocks up, he is the ONLY member of SG-1.

I'm sorry you feel attacked. That's not my intention. But you stated a very strong argument against one character, and I'm simply refuting the points that I believe soundly contradict your argument. Basic debate. That's all.

I wasn't really referring to you. But I thought the 'just admit you hate sam' post was, if not an attack, then combative.

Even you have admitted that my argument is the more likely real-life scenario.

Yes, but your scenario ISN'T what we have on SG

That's how some of us have gotten the impression that you either:

A. Don't like Carter or
B. Don't think a woman is qualified to lead.

When have I ever said that Carter was unqualified cause she's a woman? or even hinted at it. Please post some evidence of this, cuase I find it very offensive.
I never said that or ANYTHING even remotely like it. So I find it hard to believe people got that from what I posted.
And As I said before, whether I like Carter or not is immaterial,.

The fact you like Carter is not going to invalidate your argument, so if I dislike carter it does not invalidate mine.(I don't dislike Carter and I'm not typing it again.)

[LORD MONK]

Well, I am going to respond to all of that in a "did not read that fasion" But will commit in an "in your window."


In my opinion I think that BB character should not et the position he is getting because he as never even stepped through the gate. It should go to the next in line. Like the leader of SG-2,3,4,5,6,7,. Their is alot of people qualified that can take the job if Carter doesn't resume it.

We have never even seen Carter realy command the team. So we can't realy say she can't do it.

Joint command happens allot in real life. The US does military excersies all the time with alot of countries. Are comander doesn't command the other country. They do. But we all work as one. That makes it a joint command.