Browder's character should OUTRANK Carter

[Lightsabre]

Yes, it makes good busness sense to bring BB on the show. Look at all the new fans that are going to come over. BB as a very strong fanbase that will watch Stargate simply because he is on the show. It has nothing to do witha Sam/Mitchell pairing. It has to do with getting more viewers.

Oh well, that I agree with.
I was confused since you quoted my question about the pairing.
No harm done then!
good call.

[LORD MONK]

Oh well, that I agree with.
I was confused since you quoted my question about the pairing.
No harm done then!
good call.

I have MSNTV so when I quote I have to quote the hole post and one at a time. That's why I have so many posts. Otherwise I would quote what I am talking about and to hoom I am talking to all on one post.

There should be some friction with BB being in command. Like O'Niel not wanting Carter n the Team because she is a girl. O'Niell and Daniel friction. But then they all grow to love eachother.

[Lightsabre]

I have MSNTV so when I quote I have to quote the hole post and one at a time. That's why I have so many posts. Otherwise I would quote what I am talking about and to hoom I am talking to all on one post.

There should be some friction with BB being in command. Like O'Niel not wanting Carter n the Team because she is a girl. O'Niell and Daniel friction. But then they all grow to love eachother.

Dude, that can't be fun. Ok, well I'll make sure to remember that in future.
I agree with the friction bit as well.
Tho O'Niell didn't want carter on the team cause she's a scientist. As he said in COTG "I like women, it's scientists I have a problem with".
I like the friction and I'm eager for Saturday(As long as ADSL is back up!!!)

[LORD MONK]

Dude, that can't be fun. Ok, well I'll make sure to remember that in future.
I agree with the friction bit as well.
Tho O'Niell didn't want carter on the team cause she's a scientist. As he said in COTG "I like women, it's scientists I have a problem with".
I like the friction and I'm eager for Saturday(As long as ADSL is back up!!!)

Me to. I can't wait. All of this stuff with the posts will be solved. I don't care realy, just as long as TPTB pulls it off. We still have like what 5 ep. before Carter gets back.
If BB can pull it off then he gets the spot.

Has far as MSNTV, it's not that bad because I can do this on a 42" tube T.V. and I have Broadband. So it's faster then fast. I just can't read sproilers or put sproilers in. That I know off. I just figured out how to shorten the quots to what I am refering to though. Thanks PM misters.

[Crichton]

I'm still fairly new here and I just wanted to add some stuff that I don't think was added about the debate between Carter and Mitchell and rank. I didn't want to read all 35 pages of threads so I'll just say my comment and be done.

I can't believe that alot of people actually want Carter in command. In my opinion it would seriously hurt the show. On several occasions Sam has demonstrated that she can't effectively command. I can't remember specific episode names but
-she fails to follow O'Neil's orders and allows Replicator Sam to adapt to the disruptor
-she lashes out at a scientist under her command when O'Neil and Mayborn disappear to the "paradise" where the plantlife drives Mayborn crazy.

All I'm saying is that it fits her character to be the scientific expert but not necessarily the best tactician. O'Neil was a cool leader of SG-1 because he wasn't overly commited to science like Carter, personal ties like Teal'c or culture like Daniel. All of these characters have failed to see danger because they get so caught up in their own work. That's the whole dynamic of the show-Cameron Mitchell doesn't have to have more off-world experience than Carter-he just needs to be able to assess the threats versus the possible benefits and make accurate tactical decisions. That's what makes the military characters cool-the idea that Earth's special forces are more skilled tactically than most aliens just because of the intense wars in Earth's history.

[Agent_Dark]

I can't believe that alot of people actually want Carter in command. In my opinion it would seriously hurt the show. On several occasions Sam has demonstrated that she can't effectively command. I can't remember specific episode names but
-she fails to follow O'Neil's orders and allows Replicator Sam to adapt to the disruptor
-she lashes out at a scientist under her command when O'Neil and Mayborn disappear to the "paradise" where the plantlife drives Mayborn crazy.

All I'm saying is that it fits her character to be the scientific expert but not necessarily the best tactician. O'Neil was a cool leader of SG-1 because he wasn't overly commited to science like Carter, personal ties like Teal'c or culture like Daniel. All of these characters have failed to see danger because they get so caught up in their own work. That's the whole dynamic of the show-Cameron Mitchell doesn't have to have more off-world experience than Carter-he just needs to be able to assess the threats versus the possible benefits and make accurate tactical decisions. That's what makes the military characters cool-the idea that Earth's special forces are more skilled tactically than most aliens just because of the intense wars in Earth's history.

So it's ok for O'Neill to blatantly ignore his superior's orders in Learning Curve and take a child from a planet out into the public, nearly causing an intersteller incident?
Its ok for O'Neill to lash out at a civilian in Red Sky?
Its ok for O'Neill to again ignore his superior's orders in Scorched Earth and use the generator to blow up the ship?
Its ok for O'Neill to get in a fist fight with his double on a hostile planet in Double Jeopardy?

But somehow that makes Carter unfit for command? Your logic is flawed, at least in my opinion.
O'Neill himself gave command of SG-1 to Carter. I doubt he would of done that if he didn't think she was ready. And you failed to mention that Carter HAS competently led SG-1 (hell she was doing it season 2), instead pointing out the TWO times she MAY have been out of line (and I'd argue with both of those)???

[oragans]

I want Browder to take command as he did start up SG-1 again in the show and Carter is rejoining in beachead.

[sg1 volgman]

All these people talking about it being a demotion are crazy. She has only been in her rank for like 2 months and she is in charge of 2 people that are not even Airforce.

It's already known that BB's char was incharge of the FLEET that defended earth. AKA he is more then likely the Airforces top ranking field active officer.

So putting Carter in charge of HIM would be an insult.

You have a point, but carter has been in stargate for 8 years now. Even though she's always been a follower, she deserves a chance to lead the team, and they should, as this this title says, have browder outrank carter if they put him in charge.

[oragans]

well we don't now how long carter has been leading the SG-1 team because we don't won't sort of timeline has gone by, and she most probably resigned so i say give someone else a chance.

[Lightsabre]

You have a point, but carter has been in stargate for 8 years now. Even though she's always been a follower, she deserves a chance to lead the team, and they should, as this this title says, have browder outrank carter if they put him in charge.

She had the chance. S8. Plus Lost City in S7, and a couple of times in earlier season. None of those times did she impress.
People blame the writers, but the fact is, Carter is just not a leadership char.
Plain and simple.
She was first written as the 'techie'. TPTB overreached themselves. She is too good as a techie. No one can believably take the role from her, and without being able to leave that behind, they can't write her as a believable leader.
She's a casualty of the series going on for so long.

[Lightsabre]

But somehow that makes Carter unfit for command? Your logic is flawed, at least in my opinion.
O'Neill himself gave command of SG-1 to Carter. I doubt he would of done that if he didn't think she was ready. And you failed to mention that Carter HAS competently led SG-1 (hell she was doing it season 2), instead pointing out the TWO times she MAY have been out of line (and I'd argue with both of those)???

Carter is not unfit for command. She's just bad at it.(Please do not flame this,. IF you disagree fine, but DON'T attack me over it).
ALmost without fail, when she is in the leadership position, she fails to assert herself, makes BAD judgement calls, hesitates and basically balls it all up.
Blame the writing if you must, she's just not command material. Put her in a lab and she's fine, but in the field, she's more of a follower.
THat's NOT an insult. Not everyone is a leader. and really, this world needs followers as well. Teal'c is a leader, Daniel is not. Neither observation is an insult to either char.

[IncessantBabbler]

Just cuase they know him doesn't mean we've seen him.
I imagine they know the person who serves lunch in the commissary or whatever, but we never see them.

I didn't think we would compare Mitchell (essentially a war hero) and someone who delivers food, but whatever. I'm glad Teal'c doesn't accept him right away. That wouldn't be realistic to me. I hope Daniel follows suit to some extent.

And Carter is seasoned, but not as infantry, since women are not allowed in frontline combat and the air force doesn't engage in infantry combat. <snip> It was a valid realism point. IF it's unlikely for a civilian archiologist to be on a frontline team, it's just as unlikely for a female astropysicist.

First of all, one is a civilian and one is a seasoned officer in a the Air Force. You can't compare the two in that regard. It doesn't matter if they both have doctorate's degrees. Sam has the training and Daniel didn't. I'm glad both are on the team, but you really can't compare the two when it comes to combat skills - especially in the beginning.

Also, define "infantry." Does infantry involve engaging the enemy in combat? Does it involve being armed and ready to defend oneself and one's team in battle? I'm pretty sure (in this case) that "combat" and "infantry" are one in the same. Her combat piloting skills, despite the fact that they could have put them to use a few times, are moot considering they have always put her in shotgun behind Jack. We won't even go into that, though.

Oh you mean the guy that helped plan an lead the attack on Ra on Abydos??That guy? the guy who organised a milita of kids after the military left and kept a watch on the Stargate?? This is the guy who can't handle combat?? <snip> The fact they do participate in combat missions is irrelevant to the makeup of the team. Daniel is a very necessary part of the team. They couldn't do it without him. Why are you so dead set against him???

Again, let me make myself clear. I am VERY glad that Daniel stayed on the team. I have no problems with him handling himself in combat. Daniel's awesome. But I'm saying that, given the Stargate's history, wouldn't the pesky politicians of the past (i.e. Kinsey) have had some kind of problem with the world's - heck, the galaxy's - foremost expert on the history of the Ancients and the Goa'uld being on the frontline team? I'm glad they didn't pull him, but I'd think that they'd be worried about it. I'm definitely not against Daniel.

See this is your problem.You assume that 1)She's ordered elsewhere and doesn't want to go

Whether she wants to go or not means nothing if she's ordered to go. We won't know any of this until July 15th. I admit that.

2)her new posting is temporary.

As Uber so kindly reminded me, the promotional pics all have Sam in not only SGC gear, but SG-1 gear. So, unless you want to accuse SciFi of false advertising, I'd say it's a safe bet that she's on the team and her posting is indeed temporary.

3)that Sam is losing her position. SHe's not, we've been through it over and over.

YOU'VE been over it again. But your argument, just as mine, is filled with speculation. We will not know the nature of how Sam departs until July 15.

4)That Cam was promised the CO position. He wasn't. He was expecting to join SG-1 and instead found out he was the commander over no one, since there was no team.

I'll address this below.

Sam was not(as far as we know) promised leadership of SG-1 would always remain with her. Furthermore, since the others are leaving, are you 100% sure she WANTS to remain in command???

Nope. We don't know what was promised to her or not promised to her. Are you sure she DOESN'T want to remain in command? We won't know, can't know until July 15.

As to you scenario above, if Sam was coming and displacing Cam, then I would say it's not fair. Just as I would say if Sam was being displaced by Cam. But she's not. Cam is simply filling an empty job. Like it or hate it, those are the facts, told to us by TPTB.

Again, as Uber pointed out to me, TPTB have been decidedly coy about what they tell us about the command structure this season. They haven't said either way what will happen in Beach Head, because they want us to fight, bicker, and then watch the episode to see who's wrong. In the scenario I described, the tables are turned, and the only difference is who is tenured and who isn't. So, I ask you again: If Sam was coming in from out of nowhere and Cam had been the one who was on SG-1 for eight years, would you still think it's a decision? Would you still be defending Sam's character - someone whom you wouldn't even really know as a character, yet?

And I am REALLY sick of people either saying or impling I'm sexist. I"m not. I have an opinion on this topic which would be the same were it 2 women, or 2 men in similar situations.

When you're spouting phrases like "good tv choice," it's reasonable to assume that there are reasons behind it. Based on what you said in that post, you seem to think that Carter as the leader of SG-1 isn't a good television choice, but that Mitchell as the leader of SG-1 is a good tv choice. It would have been different if you'd simply said, "Sam hasn't proven she's a true leader to me." Instead, you happened to mention a very good sociological reason behind what TPTB are trying to do here. And no matter how you try to dress it, no matter how your opinion would fit for 2 people of the same gender, it's still gonna look off. This isn't an issue with two women or two men. This is an issue between a woman who has been on the show for eight years and a man who hasn't. When we've got people, who are defending a character who hasn't even been fully introduced yet, it's a good question to ask, I think.

So basically, you want them to bring in a fictional command structure just so you can see yet one more side of an overloaded character explored??

THE SGC is a fictional command structure. You know, with Air Force officers, aliens, and civilians running around saving the galaxy on a regular basis? How much more fantastic and fictional can you get? If you think that it's unrealistic for Sam to have been on the frontline team, don't you think the Air Force consultants would have said so from the beginning? If that's the case, and TPTB allowed Sam to stay on the team anyway, doesn't that mean it was their choice to manipulate the rules to their liking? If you can accept that they did so in that case, why is it so hard for you to accept that maybe they'd be willing to bend regulations for this season. With joint command.

And Sam: Scientist Extraordinaire is not anymore overloaded than the Daniel: Angsty Boy Wonder; Teal'c: The Stoic and Sometimes Silent Shol'va; or Jack: The Witty and World Weary General. Well... I don't think Teal'c's overloaded, but that's a different story.

Yes you are, becuase your opinions colored it. The way you wrote it implied Sam getting screwed. <snip> Much less chance of my opinion coloring it.

Your opinion colors everything you say just like everyone else's does, so don't pretend like you have some kind of magical power that can turn off your bias like a switch.

Cam wanted on SG-1. Can you blame him?? Flagship team.
He didn't expect to be CO.

This is my problem with your argument from above. We all know that Cam wanted to be on SG-1. But you're also saying that Cam most likely outranks Sam. I don't believe that Cam was an LC before "New Order," but whatever. Let's say that he was. He probably didn't even make his request to be on SG-1 until after Jack was unfrozen and made General. That doesn't matter though. If Cam was an LC during "The Lost City" and he did make that request to be on SG-1 before the promotions, don't you think he would have made that request with the knowledge that he outranked Sam? The timing's off. Tricky, isn't it? I don't think he's been an LC any longer than Sam was (I wouldn't be surprised if they were promoted within the same week), but if you DO think so, you'd have to concede that Cam reasonably assumed that he may get the CO position. And I don't blame him for wanting to be on SG-1. As Jack said in S8, EVERYONE wants to be on SG-1. I'm just curious about how he managed to get his name bumped to the top of the list, when there were people who were working in the SGC and risking their lives on a daily basis long before he probably even knew the facility.

But, as I said, none of that from the spoilers means that she is being reassigned to the SGC or needs to be in command of SG-1.

Again, promo pics say otherwise. Leading SG-1... a deliberate mystery.

Command of SG-1 is not hers by right, you know.

Not hers by right? What? No way!?! Thanks for the newsflash, but I think that's been made abundantly clear.

Why would she be head of research?? Well, she is a genius, the foremost expert on more things than any 10 people and far more valuable there than she is gallavanting all over the galaxy.

Oh. OK. So you're saying she hasn't contributed to saving the lives of millions of people? You're saying she could have done all of that from a lab? Wow. Last time I checked, her hairbrained ideas were the reason why the world wasn't swallowed into a black hole, or obliterated by an asteroid, or taken over by replicators, or any number of crazy things that have happened. I'm not saying she was a one-man show, because NONE of them can be a one-man show. This is a team. A team of crazies, but a team, nonetheless. And just as it is imperative for Daniel to be out in the field, the same goes for Sam. Why are you so dead set against her?

Basically, in Avalon, Sam was gone and never coming back. Deal.

Wow! I didn't know the spoilers were that definitive! Or maybe you just have some insider knowledge to which no one else is privy.

Yup, just takes 6 weeks for them to respect him more than they're friend of 8 years who's saved their lives more than once.
<snip> But Mitchell is likely to rank her(When officers are of the same rank, the higher ranking one is the one who's been in that rank the longest. It's likely Mitchell does outrank Carter). It would be very unlikely for her to be put over him in that case. Mitchell doesn't need to assert himself? In a close knit team of friends who've been operating together for 8 years?

Mitchell will need to prove that he belongs on this team, yes. But he's gonna do the right thing. He's gonna gain Teal'c and Daniel's trust over the next six weeks. They're gonna trust him with their life. And when Sam comes, it's gonna be a give-and-take relationship between the four of them.

AT said that the team in S8 wasn't the same as before. The chain of command was emphasized because of Sam and Jack. But, when you have two tenured members of a team who are not as bound to the military as the CO(s), you're allowed leeway. AT said that Sam didn't order Teal'c and Daniel around as much as Jack did, and I'm hoping that's the way it works in S9.

No one said Mitchell was or is Jack. But if he's in charge, Carter needs to respect that. Just as he would need to respect her if she was.
It's that simple.How do oyu know that their won't be give and take in the command? It's jsut more likely with Cam in charge than with Sam.

Yeah. Because it makes for good television.

All the "give and take" in the world couldn't make that command structure a sound one. A CO who has less experience than EVERYONE else on his team giving orders to someone who was promoted to the same rank a few months after him - yeah. That's pure gold.

[Lightsabre]

I didn't think we would compare Mitchell (essentially a war hero) and someone who delivers food, but whatever.

Ok then, list off all the non SG-1 characters we;ve seen on the base.
I'll start you off
Hammond
Siler
Chevron Guy.
That's about it. Where exactly did ytou want to see Cam??

First of all, one is a civilian and one is a seasoned officer in a the Air Force. You can't compare the two in that regard. It doesn't matter if they both have doctorate's degrees. Sam has the training and Daniel didn't. I'm glad both are on the team, but you really can't compare the two when it comes to combat skills

Sam is a seasoned pilot. Daniel helped plan and execute a guerilla war.
I think they are both qualified
Sam does have training, but there are LAWS against her serving in an infantry unit. Do you understand that???

Also, define "infantry." Does infantry involve engaging the enemy in combat? I'm pretty sure (in this case) that "combat" and "infantry" are one in the same. Her combat piloting skills, despite the fact that they could have put them to use a few times, are moot considering they have always put her in shotgun behind Jack. We won't even go into that, though.

Oh my god. Now your upset she wasn't the lead pilot??
Infantry is what SG-1 do, it's where you run around with the gun in the trenches and shoot the other side.
Combat and infantry are NOT one and the same. A fist fight is combat. So is a dogfight, so is a subamarine battle.
Infantry are ground troops.
Sam may be trained, but she is NOT a seasoned infantry officer.
I say again, women are not allowed to serve in frontline units as infantry in the US. Don't like it? complain to your gov't.

I'm saying that, given the Stargate's history, wouldn't the pesky politicians of the past have had some kind of problem with the world's - heck, the galaxy's - foremost expert on the history of the Ancients and the Goa'uld being on the frontline team? I'm glad they didn't pull him, but I'd think that they'd be worried about it.

The fact is, his combat skills are irrelevant. His knowledge and expertise are needed. That is why he is part of the team. Same with Carter. If she was a civialia (ala Moebius) she'd still be needed. IT's her science skills, not her comabt one, that got her the SG-1 spot.

Whether she wants to go or not means nothing if she's ordered to go.

OF course. But the way you write it, she didn;'t want to leave SG-1.
All the spoilers I've read state that all of SG-1 WANT to leave.
The threat is over, they disband.
Why can you not accept this, or if at least accept that is how I see it??

the promotional pics all have Sam in not only SGC gear, but SG-1 gear. I'd say it's a safe bet that she's on the team and her posting is indeed temporary.

WHAT???
Her posting is temporary because of promo pics?? when we know she is convinced to rejoin the team in or after 'Beach Head'???
There are so many holes in that.
Just becuase she rejoins does NOIT mean it's a temp posting. Given the team being disbanded, I'd say it's likely that it WASN'T a temp posting.

YOU'VE been over it again. But your argument, just as mine, is filled with speculation. We will not know the nature of how Sam departs until July 15.

We know that 1)SG-1 is disbanded(and it's hinted it's at their request).
THat's enough to back my side.

Nope. We don't know what was promised to her or not promised to her. Are ou sure she DOESN'T want to remain in command? We won't know, can't know until July 15.

Well, when you disband your team, chances are you want to leave.
Basically, if Carter wanted to retain command of SG-1, she would have.

Again, as Uber pointed out to me, TPTB have been decidedly coy about what they tell us about the command structure this season.

No they haven't. They simply havne't told us if cam or sam commands.

In the scenario I described, the tables are turned, and the only difference is who is tenured and who isn't. So, I ask you again: If Sam was coming in from out of nowhere and Cam had been the one who was on SG-1 for eight years, would you still think it's a decision? Would you still be defending Sam's character - someone whom you wouldn't even really know as a character, yet?

I did answer this, but anyway.
IF cam was in command and Sam put over him, I wouldn't like it.
If Cam left, Sam got the job and Cam returned, then I think the job is Sam's.

When you're spouting phrases like "good tv choice," it's reasonable to assume that there are reasons behind it.

Yes, I think it makes a good choice for a tv show.

Based on what you said in that post, you seem to think that Carter as the leader of SG-1 isn't a good television choice, but that Mitchell as the leader of SG-1 is a good tv choice.

Yes, since, if you've read this thread, you've read that I think sam has more than enough on her plate that adding command to that overloads her and leaves Mitchell with nothing to do on teh team but die.

It would have been different if you'd simply said, "Sam hasn't proven she's a true leader to me."

I have, many, many times. Go back in the thread and you'll see it.

Instead, you happened to mention a very good sociological reason behind what TPTB are trying to do here. And no matter how you try to dress it, no matter how your opinion would fit for 2 people of the same gender, it's still gonna look off.

Ah, so becuase I don't blindly side with the woman, I'm sexist??
Please. There is a valid reason and that reason would be the SAME if it were 2 men or 2 women. I'm not talking about gender becuase gender is irrelevant in this.

This isn't an issue with two women or two men. This is an issue between a woman who has been on the show for eight years and a man who hasn't.

Again, how does gender matter????
It's a PERSON who has been here for 8 years and a PERSON who hasn't.
If you can't see it in those terms, then I would suggest YOU are the sexist.

When we've got people, who are defending a character who hasn't even been fully introduced yet, it's a good question to ask, I think.

Why??? Cause we happen to agree sam shouldn't command??
Cause we don't like the character??(I like her, other's mighn't)
Or just cuase we disagree with you? Cause that's what I'm hearing here/
Also, some of us have seen BB in Farscape and thought he did an awesome job.
THat colors things here to a degree.

THE SGC is a fictional command structure. You know, with Air Force officers, aliens, and civilians running around saving the galaxy on a regular basis? How much more fantastic and fictional can you get?

Command structure is chain of command.
THe SGC is a base. I was not talking about the SGC, I was talking about joint command which the air force doesn't have.
You basically want them to introduce this, just to see another side of an overused character.
I don't.

If you think that it's unrealistic for Sam to have been on the frontline team, don't you think the Air Force consultants would have said so from the beginning?

Maybe they did. ANd probably were told this would have to slip as the show needed a female lead.

If that's the case, and TPTB allowed Sam to stay on the team anyway, doesn't that mean it was their choice to manipulate the rules to their liking?

Not if SG-1 is a team of explorers, which neatly slips the frontline comabt rule

If you can accept that they did so in that case, why is it so hard for you to accept that maybe they'd be willing to bend regulations for this season. With joint command.

See above

And Sam: Scientist Extraordinaire is not anymore overloaded than the Daniel: Angsty Boy Wonder; Teal'c: The Stoic and Sometimes Silent Shol'va; or Jack: The Witty and World Weary General. Well... I don't think Teal'c's overloaded, but that's a different story.

LOL REALLY???
Daniel:Genius, ancient cultures, languages, passable fighter.
O'Niell:FIghter, pilot.
Teal'c:Fighter, intelligence resource
Carter:Genius in several disciplines. Multiple PHD's. Fighter pilot. Advanced hand to hand fighting, marksman(or markswoman).
Hmm, Who has the biggest list. Carter has so many skills they are coming out her backside. And yet, command MUST be added for her to be fulfilled.

Your opinion colors everything you say just like everyone else's does, so don't pretend like you have some kind of magical power that can turn off your bias like a switch.

It is very, very hard to get bias from the 2 sentences I wrote.

This is my problem with your argument from above. We all know that Cam wanted to be on SG-1. But you're also saying that Cam most likely outranks Sam.

WIth Sam being a LT Col. even if he technically outranks her, he could follow her as she was ALREADYt he leader. He may have even volunteered to take a rank reduction to join. We don't know.
But TPTB have told us he didn't expect command, so, that's the facts, jack.

Again, promo pics say otherwise. Leading SG-1... a deliberate mystery.

Promo pics?? We know Carter rejoins SG-1. This proves nothing.

Not hers by right? What? No way!?! Thanks for the newsflash, but I think that's been made abundantly clear.

Well, you appear to think she should get it the minute she goes to the SGC, so I don't think it has.

Oh. OK. So you're saying she hasn't contributed to saving the lives of millions of people?

Nope, didn't say that, you did.

You're saying she could have done all of that from a lab? Wow. Last time I checked, her hairbrained ideas were the reason why the world wasn't swallowed into a black hole, or obliterated by an asteroid, or taken over by replicators, or any number of crazy things that have happened.

Yup me too

I'm not saying she was a one-man show, because NONE of them can be a one-man show. This is a team. A team of crazies, but a team, nonetheless. And just as it is imperative for Daniel to be out in the field, the same goes for Sam. Why are you so dead set against her?

I'm not. you asked why she would be in a lab, I told you.
Then you started talking about the things she has done, which have no relevance.

Mitchell will need to prove that he belongs on this team, yes. But he's gonna do the right thing. He's gonna gain Teal'c and Daniel's trust over the next six weeks. And when Sam comes, it's gonna be a give-and-take relationship between the four of them.

Again, I wll NOT trust someone I've known for 6 weeks over someone I've known for 8 Years.
IF it came down to it, Danny and Teal'c would back Carter, no question.

All the "give and take" in the world couldn't make that command structure a sound one. A CO who has less experience than EVERYONE else on his team giving orders to someone who was promoted to the same rank a few months after him - yeah. That's pure gold.

It happens all the time.

[the dancer of spaz]

Carter is not unfit for command. She's just bad at it.(Please do not flame this,. IF you disagree fine, but DON'T attack me over it).
ALmost without fail, when she is in the leadership position, she fails to assert herself, makes BAD judgement calls, hesitates and basically balls it all up.
Blame the writing if you must, she's just not command material. Put her in a lab and she's fine, but in the field, she's more of a follower.
THat's NOT an insult. Not everyone is a leader. and really, this world needs followers as well. Teal'c is a leader, Daniel is not. Neither observation is an insult to either char.

*Back from a long absence. Can't wait to see how Friday goes down in this thread and in others.*

Hey, Lightsabre? Could you bring some examples into that little statement, please? You know... just to make it more credible. No need to take this as an attack... I just want to understand where you're coming from. Think of this as a discussion. For adults.

Just a warning... I'm nothing if not thorough.

First, let's look at Spirits. This was Sam's first command after Jack was hit by a trinium arrow and was hospitalized. The mission? To find the lost SG-11 and gain some ground on some important trinium ore. Not only did Sam find SG-11 (despite the fact that Tonane asks them to talk to animals), but she got them home safely so they could ask Hammond about what to do about Tonane's people and the trinium situation. However, it's Hammond's attitude (he wanted to take it once they migrated) that got the SGC into trouble when the powerful aliens who had stowed away overheard the conversation. If I'm not mistaken, Daniel AND Sam were opposed to the idea.

Now, Sam was beamed away like several other SGC members, which allowed Jack to suddenly make a miraculous recovery and save the day. Whoot.

Going back a bit, let's look at Season One's Hathor. It's by no means an average fan's favorite, but it touches on that bit about biology that Sam mentioned in COTG. Sam wasn't officially given command, but she was the next obvious choice seeing as how the men were... otherwise occupied. In this case, Sam, Janet, Teal'c, and the few other women around the base ended up saving the men from being Jaffa-fied and the planet from being overrun by the Goddess of Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll.

Bumping up to Season Three's Foothold, Sam's (and essentially Teal'c's) own curse ended up being the only thing that kept the aliens from assuming the identity of everyone in the SGC and taking over the world. Again, Sam wasn't given official command, but desperate times... In this case, she followed her gut and got a hold of Maybourne, followed her gut again in not trusting the alien versions of Jack and Daniel, and followed her scientific gut in finding a way to reverse the effects the aliens have. Another catastrophe averted because Sam managed to stay on her toes.

We pretty much don't see anything else until Season Six's Nightwalkers. Again, many fans would agree that it could have been better, but hey so could have "Shades of Grey." Anyway... Sam was officially leading the team. They found out what's going on in the small town. They figured out how to stop it, Sam was mini-Goa'ulded, but managed to kill it with the chemical they'd found, and played Goa'uld up until the end - which is where she eliminated everyone involved and was able to provide a great deal of damage control in the small town.

Paradise Lost shows Sam in command. Her treatment of Dr. Lee was harsh, but her expectations for that team weren't any higher than what she'd placed for herself - no matter who it was being found.

Season Seven's Evolution Part II had Sam officially leading the mission, although Jacob and Bra'tac were definitely in charge. Nevertheless, Sam had her moments, and she and Teal'c could both say that they delayed Anubis' little Super Soldier factory for the time being. And, as they were quick to point out, they all made it out alive.

The Lost City, also known as the best episode of season seven , was a bit crazy. A lot of stuff happened. Jack didn't relinquish command until right before he stopped talking altogether. What did Sam do wrong in this episode?

New Order Part I. I suppose it all went to pot when Sam was beamed up into Fifth's ship because of her actions from a year before - actions that involved her following a direct order. A direct order given by Jack. An understandable and logical order given by Jack, but a direct order, nonetheless. Still don't see what Sam did wrong here, but maybe you could tell me.

Season Eight's Zero Hour showed Sam in command for approximately 30 seconds, but it was clear that Sam did nothing wrong in her attempt to get the team back to the Gate. They had no knowledge of what had been going on while they were underground. They'd found Anubis' secret base (mission objective), but were unable to get out again - as is usual when dealing with SG-1. The only reason why the SGC was so easily deceived was because Ba'al's people intercepted radio chatter - and THAT was most likely SG-3's, considering SG-1 was incommunicado. What did Sam do wrong here? Well, I suppose she failed to predict the future. That can be pretty annoying sometimes.

Icon showed Sam in command for slightly longer than 30 seconds. I'd say at least five or ten minutes. Now, it should be noted that Sam led SGs 3, 6 and 12 to successfully find Daniel and new allies, and infiltrate the secret facility that held the lovely cult leader.

In Affinity, Sam and Daniel (and Pete) helped clear Teal'c for murder and kidnapping. They find out about The Trust. Sam does nothing in this episode that jeopardizes the lives of other people.

Covenant got Sam some national air time while she helped deceive the world WITHOUT really deceiving it about the existence of aliens. Her quick delivery on live television publicly discredited the big-mouth billionnaire, and she ended up convincing the brilliant (albeit naive) scientist to join the SGC's side.

Gemini. Sam got too close to the situation and let her emotions get in the way (compare this to Jack's behavior in "Red Sky" or "The Other Side"). She didn't go against Jack's orders, and Jack's own desire to trust Sam and get the information clouded his initial judgment as well.

It's Good To Be King: Her leadership was interrupted by a rather welcome implementation of Jack, but her handling of the situation up to that point was spot on. She probably should have shot Maybourne just for GP, though.

The Reckonings. I'm lost here. We all know how that panned out. So, can you tell me what she did that "balled up" that mission? Was it before or after she and Jacob deciphered the weapon on Dakara and wiped out the Replicators?

Hmmm... Now that I look at all of these instances, I think I see what you're saying here... Sam is definitely bad at any sort of command.

[Lightsabre]

Hey, Lightsabre? Could you bring some examples into that little statement, please? You know... just to make it more credible. No need to take this as an attack... I just want to understand where you're coming from. Think of this as a discussion. For adults.

I do. But I get tired of random crap like "SHe's saved the world hundreds of times' being yelled at me. I don't think sam's a good leader and I shouldn't have to defend myself(not my opinion, but myself) constantly becuase of it.

Just a warning... I'm nothing if not thorough.
First, let's look at Spirits. This was Sam's first command after Jack was hit by a trinium arrow and was hospitalized. The mission? To find the lost SG-11 and gain some ground on some important trinium ore. Not only did Sam find SG-11 (despite the fact that Tonane asks them to talk to animals), but she got them home safely so they could ask Hammond about what to do about Tonane's people and the trinium situation. However, it's Hammond's attitude (he wanted to take it once they migrated) that got the SGC into trouble when the powerful aliens who had stowed away overheard the conversation. If I'm not mistaken, Daniel AND Sam were opposed to the idea.

Now, Sam was beamed away like several other SGC members, which allowed Jack to suddenly make a miraculous recovery and save the day. Whoot.

Yeah, I'm not blaming Sam for the outcome. Just that in that ep, she shrank back, did NOT take the inititive and basically, I wasn't impressed with her command abilities. Too hesitant, and she made a couple of bad choice, imho.

Going back a bit, let's look at Season One's Hathor. It's by no means an average fan's favorite, but it touches on that bit about biology that Sam mentioned in COTG. Sam wasn't officially given command, but she was the next obvious choice seeing as how the men were... otherwise occupied. In this case, Sam, Janet, Teal'c, and the few other women around the base ended up saving the men from being Jaffa-fied and the planet from being overrun by the Goddess of Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll.

THat wasn't command really. SHe took over, and once teh shooting was done Jack/Hammond took over again. We know she can fight, I just didn't really see her as a leader in Hathor.

Bumping up to Season Three's Foothold, Sam's (and essentially Teal'c's) own curse ended up being the only thing that kept the aliens from assuming the identity of everyone in the SGC and taking over the world. Again, Sam wasn't given official command, but desperate times... In this case, she followed her gut and got a hold of Maybourne, followed her gut again in not trusting the alien versions of Jack and Daniel, and followed her scientific gut in finding a way to reverse the effects the aliens have. Another catastrophe averted because Sam managed to stay on her toes.

I haven't seen foothold in a while, but I'll grant you this. She does well in Foothold

We pretty much don't see anything else until Season Six's Nightwalkers. Again, many fans would agree that it could have been better, but hey so could have "Shades of Grey." Anyway... Sam was officially leading the team. They found out what's going on in the small town. They figured out how to stop it, Sam was mini-Goa'ulded, but managed to kill it with the chemical they'd found, and played Goa'uld up until the end - which is where she eliminated everyone involved and was able to provide a great deal of damage control in the small town.

Nightwalkers proves what I was saying. She playes the 2 members of her command off one another, doesn't listen to them and basically runs around trying to save the day herself. That's not a leader, that a wannabe hero.
If not for a lucky chance, she'd be a host or dead.

Paradise Lost shows Sam in command. Her treatment of Dr. Lee was harsh, but her expectations for that team weren't any higher than what she'd placed for herself - no matter who it was being found.

That is NO excuse. Just becuase she was willing to work herself to exhaustion, everyone else had to? she was harsh, she was unreasonable.
SHe may have been expecting them to do as much as she, but come on, she's the no 1 on alien tech. There is no way the other guys could keep up.
A leader needs to understand the limitations of their followers.

Season Seven's Evolution Part II had Sam officially leading the mission, although Jacob and Bra'tac were definitely in charge. Nevertheless, Sam had her moments, and she and Teal'c could both say that they delayed Anubis' little Super Soldier factory for the time being. And, as they were quick to point out, they all made it out alive.

Again, she faded away and let others take on the responsibility, while happy to wear the title. That's a figurehead.

The Lost City, also known as the best episode of season seven , was a bit crazy. A lot of stuff happened. Jack didn't relinquish command until right before he stopped talking altogether. What did Sam do wrong in this episode?

Nothing, she didn't do anything. She didn't assert command. You could argue she didn't need to, but she didn't step up, yet again.

New Order Part I. I suppose it all went to pot when Sam was beamed up into Fifth's ship because of her actions from a year before - actions that involved her following a direct order. A direct order given by Jack. An understandable and logical order given by Jack, but a direct order, nonetheless. Still don't see what Sam did wrong here, but maybe you could tell me.

I never said she did anything wrong in New Order. While I would argue that she could reasonably disobey that order, I never claimed she screwed up in New Order.

Season Eight's Zero Hour showed Sam in command for approximately 30 seconds, but it was clear that Sam did nothing wrong in her attempt to get the team back to the Gate. They had no knowledge of what had been going on while they were underground. They'd found Anubis' secret base (mission objective), but were unable to get out again - as is usual when dealing with SG-1. The only reason why the SGC was so easily deceived was because Ba'al's people intercepted radio chatter - and THAT was most likely SG-3's, considering SG-1 was incommunicado. What did Sam do wrong here? Well, I suppose she failed to predict the future. That can be pretty annoying sometimes.

Yes it can. Again, I never quoted this ep. why? we didn't SEE Sam in command. So I can hardly criticise it can I?

Icon showed Sam in command for slightly longer than 30 seconds. I'd say at least five or ten minutes. Now, it should be noted that Sam led SGs 3, 6 and 12 to successfully find Daniel and new allies, and infiltrate the secret facility that held the lovely cult leader.

I may have missed this one, but wasn't ICON hte one with the VR chair??
If it wasn't I think I missed it, so I obviously wasn't commenting on it.

In Affinity, Sam and Daniel (and Pete) helped clear Teal'c for murder and kidnapping. They find out about The Trust. Sam does nothing in this episode that jeopardizes the lives of other people.

And yet again, doesn't really take a leadership role.
If you want to talk about her command skills, maybe you should give some info that shows them>???

Covenant got Sam some national air time while she helped deceive the world WITHOUT really deceiving it about the existence of aliens. Her quick delivery on live television publicly discredited the big-mouth billionnaire, and she ended up convincing the brilliant (albeit naive) scientist to join the SGC's side.

Yup, but command skills again?? How did this demonstrate or need command skills??

Gemini. Sam got too close to the situation and let her emotions get in the way (compare this to Jack's behavior in "Red Sky" or "The Other Side"). She didn't go against Jack's orders, and Jack's own desire to trust Sam and get the information clouded his initial judgment as well.

Both Jack and Sam screwed up here. It was Jack's order, but her recommendation. But again, no leadership skills shown or needed by sam.

It's Good To Be King: Her leadership was interrupted by a rather welcome implementation of Jack, but her handling of the situation up to that point was spot on. She probably should have shot Maybourne just for GP, though.

Guess we agree to disagree on that one.

The Reckonings. I'm lost here. We all know how that panned out. So, can you tell me what she did that "balled up" that mission? Was it before or after she and Jacob deciphered the weapon on Dakara and wiped out the Replicators?

I said she balled up in Reckoning?? Don't recall that.
Again, in reckoning, she showed NO command abilites nor did she step up and take them. TO me, that's not a leader. IT's a follower.
She CAN lead, but she doesn't do it instinctively. When she's pushed to it, the best I can say of her performance is it's competent.
Usual disclaimer: this is my opinion. LIke it or hate it, I'm entitled to have it.

Hmmm... Now that I look at all of these instances, I think I see what you're saying here... Sam is definitely bad at any sort of command.

Ah so we agree. Good to have you on board