Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

the problem with it is, that utopia and free will are incompatible. Free Will is what drives everything, from love and compassion to the evils of our world.

K, ill just pull back the utopia to a degree, but they will still less of a mess then our corrupted world. Which will be illustrated in coming stories. Should I make some stories about everyday life in the Houjin kingdom>? Would that help?

Although...an idea. They already have one split off faction, the KK, who are not very nice people, so there could be a world that separated itself from the rest of the Kingdom to become a utopia. The three faces of my race, evil, intermediate, and controlling utopians.

I think it would add good story elements to them.

add Equilibrium to your list. it's a great movie. definitely some food for thought.

I meant to record it actually back when it came out on TV.

[StargateWatcher]

Well, sand gardens

They do not eat land animals, so no massive sections of land, thousands of acres, have to be turned into fields of manure stuffed with unhappy critters fed an unnatural diet that leads to an 80% increase in E-coli bacteria in their guts.(Corn is an entirely man made phenomenon.)

Plus, fish is high protein low in fat, unlike land creatures. Most of the Houjin diet however, is plant based. Houjin farms are...hmm. How to explain this...leveled. A hundred square acres of land is chosen and the fields set up. Then, support pillars are built for a platform above that. The bottom of the platform has solar lamps and water sprayers in it. The farm is then expanded upward, as many levels as required.

The atmosphere of Arata Seken has no pollutants in it.

Our system is based on money, money is power. For the Houjin, power is to be used to help others, to take care of your responsibilities, your duty. All Houjin leaders are taught to respect power as a privilege.(More detail available) Money is a simple tool, not the main focus of life. People today are so concerned about rights. "I have my rights I have my rights!!!" Ok. But what about other people? Houjin society teaches one to be focused outward, on others, rather then self. People are given what they need to survive, food, shelter, clean water, medical attention, and in return, they help build up society by preforming various tasks. Depending on the task you preform, you get credit bonuses. You are somewhat limited by your cast though.

Tobacco like products were outlawed centuries ago. Fossil fuel was scoffed at. We would be using solar power and hydrogen driven cars if the frigging oil companies were not bringing in billions of dollars in profit every year.

Think of all the progress we could make if money was not the main focus of people. Sorry if I ranted a bit but I was kind of on a roll.

Actually it does, but its also because of social development.


Negative, the base aspects of the society, respect for the environment, others and oneself, quality and efficiency over cheap and fast, have been around for 1000 years.
Yes, but after the first quake that shook down the city or the first flood that wiped it out they would move. And before they had all their technology they built more like that, but they changed.

Yup, they bulldozer'ed the old ones just like I think Portland needs to be bulldozerd and rebuilt. If the area was worth building over again they did, or they had other cities ready.
Those elements were/are...taken care of. You dont want to work? Mhm k, but your not gonna have much in life then, and depending on the circumstances you may even be taken to the Kokoro monks. But their society is different then ours. Different values. Everyone is "brainwashed" or programmed to some degree. Adverts, tv shows, movies, books, what we take into our minds influences us. The Houjin developed...better influences then our planet.



Your right, naturally, its 100% impossible. In fact, even with all their technology and methods it still remains somewhat under 100%, but they are as close as humanly possible.

By the way, I estimated the population of Arata Seken to be about 10 billion. To many? Naw. If every person on Earth was given a tennis court sized space they would fit in the U.S state of Texas.
Military
Special forces- 450k
Standing army- 2500k
Reserve forces- 100 million inactive. Hmm....may be more actually. If most of then men and woman are combat capable.....


Perhaps they are too utopian, but I guess well see how it works out. They do have a dark side...no a grey side. Which I cannot reveal without ruining things.

I was thinking about their economics. When I play a RTS game, I know that in order to gather resources you have to spend resources on workers, buildings and upgrades. An investment. You have to think long term rather then short.

The Houjin will think the same way. They have the foresight and patience to invest in the future. Set up those trade routes, invest in research.

I am trying to base them more on my personality and tactics then before.

what are sand gardens?

BTW, did u hear the new theory that eating land-animals contributes to global warming because their manure absorbs heat?

when you say their standing army is 2500k did you mean 250k instead?

cool to make youroriginal race have some of your prefferred traits; I try to do that too in my fanfics

[blackluster]

Pollution would make things a lot more interesting for Nano, however. I assume the Taqir read their share of nano-horror stories? ;-)
(similar to earth and our movies about how machines grab power and kill us. which is why i think the Tau'ri will never allow that to happen, and would be shunning any form or incarnation of it).

lol, not really. The Taqir in spirit are inspired by the Ghost in the Shell universe. There may have been a time where they feared machine take-over, but that time was brief and has long since passed. Ubiquity has killed their fear. Technology integration has reached the point where they have other concerns like the definition of consciousness or individuality (one of the most awe-inspiring aspects of Ghost in the Shell).

K, ill just pull back the utopia to a degree, but they will still less of a mess then our corrupted world. Which will be illustrated in coming stories. Should I make some stories about everyday life in the Houjin kingdom>? Would that help?

I think you will be fine as long as you generate a believable and interesting crisis for them to face. Its the core aspect of story structure: introduction -> crisis -> crisis resolution

No one wants to read about a person or people that just had ideallic life where everything goes great. Something has to happen that believably jolts the character (in this case a race) out of their comfort zone and pushes them to overcome. Doing that, it doesn't matter how utopian the society looks, it'll still be interesting to read.

The obvious caveat though is that the more super cool and awesome you make your race, the harder it is to create a believable crisis that could actually push these people beyond themselves. You open yourself to HAX baddies or deus ex machina, or cheesy plot lines, all of which stem from the race being too awesome to begin with which results in the reader simply rolling their eyes and tuning out.

In summary, you can do it as you've designed the Houjin, you're just making it very, very difficult for yourself to then create believable stories.

[Gormagon]

what are sand gardens?

http://www.google.com/search?q=sand+...N8PN0AHx2fn5CQ

BTW, did u hear the new theory that eating land-animals contributes to global warming because their manure absorbs heat?

Er, something like that. The massive number of animals we need also causes the production of large amounts of methane gas.

when you say their standing army is 2500k did you mean 250k instead?

Uh no. Although now that I think about it that may be a bit much even though they have multiple planets.

cool to make youroriginal race have some of your prefferred traits; I try to do that too in my fanfics

Ty.

I think you will be fine as long as you generate a believable and interesting crisis for them to face. Its the core aspect of story structure: introduction -> crisis -> crisis resolution
No one wants to read about a person or people that just had ideallic life where everything goes great. Something has to happen that believably jolts the character (in this case a race) out of their comfort zone and pushes them to overcome. Doing that, it doesn't matter how utopian the society looks, it'll still be interesting to read.

The obvious caveat though is that the more super cool and awesome you make your race, the harder it is to create a believable crisis that could actually push these people beyond themselves. You open yourself to HAX baddies or deus ex machina, or cheesy plot lines, all of which stem from the race being too awesome to begin with which results in the reader simply rolling their eyes and tuning out.

In summary, you can do it as you've designed the Houjin, you're just making it very, very difficult for yourself to then create believable stories.

Hmm...that is why I am leaning towards dividing my race into three separate factions. Gives me more angles to work with. I wont have backed myself into a creative corner.

[blackluster]

Hmm...that is why I am leaning towards dividing my race into three separate factions. Gives me more angles to work with. I wont have backed myself into a creative corner.

Nah, I think you're thinking too superficially about the issue. Adding more races without purpose does nothing to give you more angles. The 'angles' come from the story's core, not from how many characters are in it. (the causality is actually the other way)

If I can make a suggestion, rather look at the core of the story you'd like to tell before considering how many actors are in it. Designing 3 races to use actually limits you more than gives you options. By core I mean something like "the moral of the story" as it were. Look at stories or media you've absorbed in the past for inspiration. Remember you don't want to lift ideas, all you want is the crux of the story. Crisis -> Crisis resolution.

Since the Houjin are inspired by Japanese culture, perhaps look at Asian folklore if you know any, or modern stories or movies. The story of Kusanagi, Seven Samurai etc. somewhere is a core concept that you can use. Once you have that, the purpose for the Houjin way of life and who or what the crisis is that they face will fall into place.

[Gormagon]

Since the Houjin are inspired by Japanese culture, perhaps look at Asian folklore if you know any, or modern stories or movies. The story of Kusanagi, Seven Samurai etc. somewhere is a core concept that you can use. Once you have that, the purpose for the Houjin way of life and who or what the crisis is that they face will fall into place.

I know some Asian folk lore and mythology, I am way more familiar with Norse, Greco-Roman and Egyption though.

Core concept core concept core concept....hmmm..... concept core.....think.....Overview....big picture....entropy. No, thats to far ahead. Think.....ok. Here, I have something. Let me get my thoughts straight....(I dont consume caffeine. Nope. )

Ok I thought, long overview....

Average joes. Just like Earth. The Tau'ri. Going about their business, just like on ole Earth. Unlike the Tau'ri, they had access to naquadah. This gave them certain advantages, cheaper space travel for instance. So they do what the Tau'ri did, go out to explore the galaxy. Meet new cultures. Find valuable mineral deposits. They find a few other sentient races around, non close to their own tech level. They encounter the disturbance and cannot proceed further into space, so they settle down in their own little part of the universe. Things are nice for a while. Sleep in late on weekends. Watch the weather control channel. But a subversive element has been growing in the Huojin culture for quite some time.....like a cancer.

The Kaizoku Karuteru start a big civil war. Crisis, this leads to many changes in the Houjin culture. Later, they have a less destructive conflict with a race I am calling the Aobozu, a relatively primitive yet aggressive alien culture. This makes them wary of non Huojin species.

The have been isolated for so long that they are stagnating. The Houjin recognize this and decide its time to expand outward. The barrier must be breached. Eventually they develop the technology to travel past it and learn of the Goa'uld further increasing their distrust of other races.

The Houjin set up bases and a colony outside their own protected space. The Replicators attack those during the events in season 8 of SG-1 only to be stopped by the Dakara device. Many Houjins view this as an act of the gods, and this further influences their culture.

The Houjin do desire to explore, gather knowledge(they love facts about anything.) and set up mining outposts, so this causes them to want to leave isolation.

Thats all I got so far. I think more stories will help. I have more in my notebook right now, just need to post them.

Overview of the Houjin
Observant
Reserved
Cautious
Loyal
Think ahead
Respectful

[Gormagon]

Overview of the Houjin
Observant-I.E, not my bonehead brother.....anyways they actually look at whats going on around them and respond. Like, hmmm, that volcanons been rumbling perhaps we should investigate.

Reserved-Not to the extent of the Aschen.

Cautious-In business transactions, experiments.

Loyal-To ones commanding officer, a head of house, your spouse.

Think ahead-Willing to see a larger picture, like how basing your civilization on fossil fuel is Re.

Respectful-Just like ancient Japan, respect for your superiors, family, but added on are respect for yourself and the environment.

This how their culture influences your average Houjin to be. However, as stories progress you will see more aspects of their culture and how they interact with their environment.

[thekillman]

Er, something like that. The massive number of animals we need also causes the production of large amounts of methane gas.

while i understand it is a contributing factor, cows release just that: methane gas. most CO2 producing industries like energy plants create a whole range of bad stuff, not just CO2 or methane.

plus, farming is only catching up on technology. the older "my way is the best way" generation is stepping up, and a new age is basically upon us. my dad is already considering filling the roof with solar panels. we're only making baby steps in the grand picture of what's possible. ultimately, farming will become an energy-production system. hydrogen as a fuel is much easier to implement here than for civil transport.

The Kaizoku Karuteru

i get a headache every time i read this name.

Average joes. Just like Earth.

i am sorry, but you just raped any form of interest from them.

Why so adamant on the subspace disturbance? why not make their solar system a nice, lonely solar system some 500 lightyears above the galactic disk. it's not like they'll get uber-fast hyperdrives form the start. remember that the Goauld installed a hyperdrive on the Tel'tak that apparently could only go twice the speed of light. it likely was some kind of safety feature put in by aris boch, but still, i think that hyperdrives will initially be in the range of "x*c".

that high above the galactic disk, you're looking at interstellar distances that make Alpha Centauri look like it's right next to earth. it would massively discourage interstellar exploration, since any form of initial STL would be worthless other than intra-solar, and FTL would need to mature quite a bit before it would even be possible to go to the next star system in anyone's lifetime.

The Kaizoku Karuteru start a big civil war. Crisis, this leads to many changes in the Houjin culture. Later, they have a less destructive conflict with a race I am calling the Aobozu, a relatively primitive yet aggressive alien culture.

i still don't understand what the Karuteru have to do with this. it's about the Houjin. don't pull a -forgive me- MMD on this one. get some basic ideas straight.

you can go down the Brainwash route. but everything has it's downside. whoever controls the Brainwasher controls a species. if you don't put an authority above the brainwashed, you're looking at a very dangerous situation. then they're slave to their own programming.

you can go down the "Brave New World" route, but it comes with it's downsides.

ultimately, there's just one question: Can i live with it?

[Gormagon]

Heres the last of chapter one of my story.


" All systems ready. All lights are blue. I repeat, all lights are blue. Requesting final authorization to proceed with operation Defiance. " Gindoaw Hiati spoke through the com.

" Authorization granted. Docking clamps released. You may proceed. " came the reply.

"Acknowledged. " Gindoaw said as he activated his ships sublight drive.

The Storm Runner bounded forward out of the station and into the vast void of space. As soon as Gindoaw cleared the planets gravity well he would activate the ships F.T.l system, his course set for the disturbance.

His mind wandered. He thought about his mother and how she would be praying to the Sora kamigami. She was among the Houjin that still believed in the gods, that they watched over the Houjin people. He thought about Lady Kioto Kusabana. His head of house wished him to marry her and join the Kioto and Hiati houses together. He enjoyed spending time with her. They had interesting discussions.

His control console beeped. He had cleared the gravity well. Now the jump into underspace would be easier on the drive.

Gindoaw entered the proper coordinates and activated the ships F.T.L system. Power throbbed through the ship as the reactor reached maximum output. Gindoaw braced himself. Underspace travel always made him nauseous. A hole was torn in space, and Storm Runner leaped into the inter-dimensional rift.

End part three of chapter one.

Kortari Oukoa sat at his desk reading shipping data. He had been reassigned to data review after his failed mission. His father could only do so much for him after all. At least he was still alive. If you could call this life....

That blood bathing hag Mikiko....Kortari imagined her dying slowly from Vilshi venom, or perhaps having an accident the next time she took her yacht out.... How dare she threated the life of a son of house Oukoa! She would have to pay. Somehow. But even if he did mange to kill the whore, Kortari knew it was likely she would have sealed orders for her own people to kill off her rivals, just to make sure of her revenge.

Just then the door of his office opened and a Musha came in, escorting a courier.

An actual courier? Kortari thought. This was uncommon. Couriers were only used when there was extremely sensitive information being transported, so sensitive it could not be risked even over a secure data link.

" Why do you disturb me Musha? " Kortari asked the warrior.

" This man has a data crystal for you. He says it is from your father, I had it scanned for dangers and found non. " he replied.

" Alright, give it here then. " Kortari ordered.

The courier stepped forward cautiously, gave a half bow and handed the orange crystal to Kortari.

" You are dismissed. " Kortari said, the two visitors bowed and left.

Kortari picked up the crystal eyed it. Whatever information was on this very important. He slid it into a data port on his desk. A hologram of text appeared and he began reading.

His pulse quickened. " By Milshu's katana...." Kortari muttered.


End chapter one.


I think I know what I am going to do with them now, but ill keep writing the story and see if your interest gets rekindled. It is going to take an unexpected turn, just be patient. i will keep posting stories, the Houjin will develop and well see were it go's.

I have solid, set ideas for them, but I am just experimenting with other lines of thought.

[Gormagon]

Why so adamant on the subspace disturbance?

Because of the Goa'uld and how you guys are like " they would wipe out any race even at the cost of resources" so I made it so the Goa'uld could not get to the Houjin. It also adds story elements which I am already working with.

My current line of thinking summed up- there are the seriously brain washed utopians, who have their own planet and associate very little with the rest of the kingdom. There are the Houjin, who are intermediate. And there are the KK, the criminal element.

I think I have made significant progress from day one anyways.

I am leaning towards a socialist like economic system for the Houjin. Any thoughts? A mercantilist system would not work, yet. Unless they traded amongst their planets...so I guess it could. Capitalist systems..er...meh. Although...it seems to me that every system I read about fails at some point...there is too much information!

[fugiman]

Guys other then Houjin is anything else going on currently with stories or other plot points.

Let's talk about the set up of the alliance between Earth, Tok'ra, Jaffa Republic and Hebridan.

[thekillman]

Because of the Goa'uld and how you guys are like " they would wipe out any race even at the cost of resources" so I made it so the Goa'uld could not get to the Houjin. It also adds story elements which I am already working with.

If the goauld would encounter them, yes. they'd do anything to kill a species, they're kind of persistent in that.

however, if the Houjin are located on some tip of a galactic arm, or somewhere above the galactic disk, it's incredibly unlikely that the Goauld would look for them. from what i gather, the Milky Way has certain "areas" of high naquahdah density, which were practically all under Goauld control. Earth is in a non-dense, in fact near-absent area, which is why the Goauld never bothered to look near Earth.

I would still opt for physical isolation rather than some weird subspace phenomenon we've never seen before.

Guys other then Houjin is anything else going on currently with stories or other plot points.

Let's talk about the set up of the alliance between Earth, Tok'ra, Jaffa Republic and Hebridan.

uhm well i'm writing chapter 8 of Shadow of the Light.

other than that... well there's been some discussion about Destiny and it's future in the Fleet.

I think such an alliance would go via Heliopolis. i'm contemplating how far Heliopolis would go, what it's jurisdiction would be. It kind of depends on how we decide the spread of various races within the galaxy.


it seems the Goauld only settled high-density naquahdah words, and made the most rich worlds their capital.

it also seems the galaxy has certain "high density" and "low density" areas of Naquahdah.

and it seems the "holes" in Goauld empires are large enough for a planet to be in a domain without ever being visited. (it's good to be king.)


It can therefore be concluded that :

-the Jaffa nations control by far the most Naquahdah worlds
-the Jaffa nations control the most territory
-the Jaffa nations have the greatest spread of territory.

SGU:

the Lucian Alliance has captured quite a bit of Goauld industry, which is why they're capable of maintaining fleets, and even producing new ones.

Thus we can conclude that:

-The LA controls some of the finer goauld worlds
-The LA controls a large portion of the galaxy


SG1:

the Lucian Alliance uses various backwater, low-advancement worlds as their kassa production sites, and control many of such worlds.

Most likely scenario :

-The La controls many "backwater" patches of worlds in the goauld domain "holes".


SG1:

the hebridan have a homeworld, and it's said they have a "prison world". it's suggested the Hebridan have a small "domain" which seems to be 100% theirs.

-the Hebridan have a small domain, suggested to be in the order of a dozen worlds or so. (must check).


Continuum:

the Tok'ra control a single world. a Jaffa fleet was sent to prevent Ba'al from escaping.

-the Tok'ra have no domain, just a homeworld. it's likely to be a jaffa-protected world. (since the Tok'ra don't really have many of them left).


Now as to Earth:

we know that the area Earth is in, is quite low on naquahdah to the point where it doesn't occur in our solar system. i'd say that the closest worlds we found, where we colonized the stuff, would have little naquahdah too.

well, relatively i must add, it seems some of the richer goauld worlds had naquahdah on it like it was Iron or something.

It thus seems, that a Naquahdah forming event (NFE?) is rare, but when it occurs, it produces quite a bit of it across several solar system. the system closest to the NFE would be a rich world, surrounded by less-abundant ones to the point where it's barely present.


Trinium seems to be even rarer, and it seems Trinium and Naquahdah are mutually exclusive. that is, a Naquahdah Forming event forms just Naquahdah, while a Trinium Forming Event forms just Trinium. the reason is, that the Tollan used Trinium for everything yet never seemed to use any form of Naquahdah (It's black stuff, so should be kind of easy to notice), while the Goauld never seemed to use any Trinium and used Nahquahdah for everything, even the applications where we use Trinium. (like the hull).


Neutronium is the rarest of all. After all, the Replicators are fond of the stuff, yet never came to the Milky Way to get some. the Asgard never settled here either, or even built a small base for Neutronium extraction, even though it would've been a great benefit to them (give the Repliwar).

Since Earth has been producing "roof tiles" (Neutronium), i'd say Earth has a Neutronium mining capacity less than a ton or so per year, comparable to some of the rarer elements we dig up here on Earth.

I've had the intent of altering the purpose of Antalon, from a generic producer colony to Earth's only offworld Neutronium mining and processing Facility-turned-Colony.

The other source as i mentioned before, would be the plethora of Repliblocks and cells floating around in space. It's a good source of advanced asgard alloys and Neutronium, so i think Earth and allies would invest in it.

[Gormagon]

If the goauld would encounter them, yes. they'd do anything to kill a species, they're kind of persistent in that.

however, if the Houjin are located on some tip of a galactic arm, or somewhere above the galactic disk, it's incredibly unlikely that the Goauld would look for them. from what i gather, the Milky Way has certain "areas" of high naquahdah density, which were practically all under Goauld control. Earth is in a non-dense, in fact near-absent area, which is why the Goauld never bothered to look near Earth.

I would still opt for physical isolation rather than some weird subspace phenomenon we've never seen before.

Why dident you speak of this before??!!!!! It would not be too difficult to retcon my stuff to refit this idea, however I still do not like it as much. One issue about said situation is that I want my guys to have naquadah, another being that I wanted them to have a safe zone.

It could make for an interesting add on to the GWF universe, at the center of larger galaxies are subspace disturbances. Pegasus does not have any, Andromeda's would be worse then the MW's.

By the way, once I have a few more Houjin stories written I am willing to take on the Serrakin/Hebridans as one of my projects.

For some reason I got the impression that they did not have hyperdrives because it was never specifically stated. In fact, they way Warrick talked it seemed like they just had a large solar system like in Firefly or something. I doubt it though.

[thekillman]

Why dident you speak of this before??!!!!!

because you didn't ask for it.

you talked about a situation where they'd meet and fight the goauld.

they could have -for a while-. but it's incredibly likely they'd be defeated. i pointed to some strategies which would prolong the fight, but you turned them down. they could've fought for a while, and then the news reached the attacking Jaffa that Dakara was taken, but that opens a whole range of possibilities not necessarily benefiting the Houjin.

For some reason I got the impression that they did not have hyperdrives because it was never specifically stated. In fact, they way Warrick talked it seemed like they just had a large solar system like in Firefly or something. I doubt it though.

i don't know, but i consider it likely that we'd exchange technologies with the hebridans. if they didn't have it, and found out we do, they'd quickly be willing to exchange technologies. i mean, at the time this was playing we didn't even have to give our designs, simply giving them the equations and theories to work out their own hyperdrive would be worth gold.

By the way, once I have a few more Houjin stories written I am willing to take on the Serrakin/Hebridans as one of my projects.

Mckoy's been writing a bit about them, so do check with him to see if you're on the same page.

It would not be too difficult to retcon my stuff to refit this idea, h

technically it's not even retconning.

[Gormagon]

because you didn't ask for it.

*Bites Killmans leg*

Mckoy's been writing a bit about them, so do check with him to see if you're on the same page.

Ok.

technically it's not even retconning.

Hm?