Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

Sorry if I ranted a bit in my big post. I had had a...less then appealing day and my filters were mostly off.

[Crazy Tom]

My problem is that it doesn't take into account historical development. This society hasn't always had a tech level that advanced. These cities, this society, it's more or less springing into the world out of this air.

In real life, you would have cities built all over the place because before all this fancy tech, they needed to go where the location offered benefits. Then you have parts of said cities falling apart because it's really bloody expensive to retrofit the old infrastructure buried under all the new one. And then you have old guys in pajamas picking their noses because hey, somebody's not going to want to help build up your utopian society for whatever reason.

Also, I call impossibility on the whole social responsibility line. It's like having a system that 100 percent efficient, not happening, think of it as social thermodynamics.

[Gormagon]

My problem is that it doesn't take into account historical development.

Actually it does, but its also because of social development.

This society hasn't always had a tech level that advanced. These cities, this society, it's more or less springing into the world out of this air.

Negative, the base aspects of the society, respect for the environment, others and oneself, quality and efficiency over cheap and fast, have been around for 1000 years.

In real life, you would have cities built all over the place because before all this fancy tech, they needed to go where the location offered benefits.

Yes, but after the first quake that shook down the city or the first flood that wiped it out they would move. And before they had all their technology they built more like that, but they changed.

Then you have parts of said cities falling apart because it's really bloody expensive to retrofit the old infrastructure buried under all the new one.

Yup, they bulldozer'ed the old ones just like I think Portland needs to be bulldozerd and rebuilt. If the area was worth building over again they did, or they had other cities ready.

And then you have old guys in pajamas picking their noses because hey, somebody's not going to want to help build up your utopian society for whatever reason.

Those elements were/are...taken care of. You dont want to work? Mhm k, but your not gonna have much in life then, and depending on the circumstances you may even be taken to the Kokoro monks. But their society is different then ours. Different values. Everyone is "brainwashed" or programmed to some degree. Adverts, tv shows, movies, books, what we take into our minds influences us. The Houjin developed...better influences then our planet.

Also, I call impossibility on the whole social responsibility line. It's like having a system that 100 percent efficient, not happening, think of it as social thermodynamics.

Your right, naturally, its 100% impossible. In fact, even with all their technology and methods it still remains somewhat under 100%, but they are as close as humanly possible.

By the way, I estimated the population of Arata Seken to be about 10 billion. To many? Naw. If every person on Earth was given a tennis court sized space they would fit in the U.S state of Texas.
Military
Special forces- 450k
Standing army- 2500k
Reserve forces- 100 million inactive. Hmm....may be more actually. If most of then men and woman are combat capable.....


Perhaps they are too utopian, but I guess well see how it works out. They do have a dark side...no a grey side. Which I cannot reveal without ruining things.

I was thinking about their economics. When I play a RTS game, I know that in order to gather resources you have to spend resources on workers, buildings and upgrades. An investment. You have to think long term rather then short.

The Houjin will think the same way. They have the foresight and patience to invest in the future. Set up those trade routes, invest in research.

I am trying to base them more on my personality and tactics then before.

[blackluster]

lol, total opposite to the Taqir.

Pollution and radiation covers most of the planet surface. Nanomachines are an effective remedy but the clean up will take approximately 25 years. Population centers were hit by nuclear strikes during the unification war so the population is greatly reduced. Planet now has something like a federal government which manages the unified nations (still trying to think of an organic name for this).

Still consumer economy but food and water shortages are planet wide. Primary wide spread fuel isn't a problem but power large scale grid supply is a but of a problem (power rationing in effect) A lot of industry was lost but due to the survival of the market system industry is re-establishing itself somewhat quicker.

Post war, refugee era didn't really allow for effective new city planning so the few remaining cities have become overcrowded although the Taqir ability to effectively deal with and service an extremely high population density is decades ahead of Earth.

The only food production that can be done is in sealed hydroponic farms which are very effective but they are costly and time consuming to build. Large scale farming is rapidly moving offworld but the ability to ship food back to the Taqir homeworld is not yet working properly as the shipping volume isn't high enough to properly alleviate the food shortage. Water has to come from treatment plants.

The homeworld is mostly stripped of resources but the aggressive recycling industry directed at the fallen cities proves majorly effective. Cannibalizing the blasted cities provided virtually all the needed inorganic materials.

Eco-system has almost completely failed. A few areas survived and the government immediately moved to secure these places as protected reserves. Absolutely no interference in these last ecosystems is allowed.

I'm still playing with some semantics and with aspects of how the unified government might work. The Federal Navy maybe takes over all aspects of defense from extraterrestrial threats.

[Gormagon]

lol, total opposite to the Taqir.

This is good, it could be interesting to see our races interact. I was considering having them be horrified at the way certain peoples live and wish to help weather the help is wanted or not, to relieve suffering. I was going to do it with the Tau'ri, have them being given a tour of Earth and being...appalled at the greed and waste. Then they think a plague of some sort is going around that causes bloating and abdominal distention, but then they learn thats just cellulite. But if you are interested we could do that with your guys instead. Have some side story.

[Crazy Tom]

I am trying to base them more on my personality and tactics then before.

And there's the root of the problem. You have too much emotional investment in them, messes with your ability to make them interesting from a story POV. Every time a problem pops up you have the urge to retcon something to make it go away. This is feasible in the creation stages, but it stretches willing suspension of disbelief when you end up with a utopia.

If you want to make them interesting, I say embrace the dark side. Don't be afraid to show the effects of this sort of mass mind control on the populace, show the 1984/Brave New World vibe.

[Gormagon]

Well, the Darkside does have hot chicks, cookies and black leather.....hmm...


Well its hard to think of a dark side though, the people are healthy, happy, and productive. Its a lightside> darkside. Confusing I know. I see a darkside coming in when they meet other races. They feel that their way of life is better for people, that they are in the right....so they try to change them.

[thekillman]

dude, go read Brave New World. you won't regret it.

[thekillman]

lol, total opposite to the Taqir.

this actually sounds like a quite solid plan.

Nano-engineering would definitely help. I mean, they're basically perfect catalysts, so you could dump waste material in a bath, and after a few baths you have useful ground materials.

not to mention nano-machines to use the ground components to make new things.

are you using rebreathers (or whatever fancy name), semi-airtight cities or plastic bio-domes?

(subterranian is also an option)

[Gormagon]

dude, go read Brave New World. you won't regret it.

K.

If anyone has read battlefield Earth I stole some stuff from that novel and altered it for some of the technical aspects of their utopian mindset.

[blackluster]

Nano-engineering would definitely help. I mean, they're basically perfect catalysts, so you could dump waste material in a bath, and after a few baths you have useful ground materials.

not to mention nano-machines to use the ground components to make new things.

In the Taqir setting the nano-technology is too expensive to be used outside of specialized medicine and for its primary purpose which is the radiation and pollution problem.

Their nano-machines haven't developed to the extent where they can build molecules. (it probably won't either for plot sake)

are you using rebreathers (or whatever fancy name), semi-airtight cities or plastic bio-domes?

No, the most they have is air-masks which the populace wears at specified times when nanite 'spraying' in the upper atmosphere occurs. Post disaster people could only move clear of the main radiation clouds. The cities that took refugees are unprotected. Radiation poisoning/effects are treated on a case by case basis as they occur. The areas that were not hit but came under the primary radiation clouds are abandoned. Most of the planet in fact is desolate except for the recycling companies. (equipment and personnel)

[Gormagon]

As far as the tech, ships, and buildings go I am adamant but I can pull back a bit on the utopia.

[thekillman]

If anyone has read battlefield Earth I stole some stuff from that novel and altered it for some of the technical aspects of their utopian mindset.

the problem with it is, that utopia and free will are incompatible. Free Will is what drives everything, from love and compassion to the evils of our world.

add Equilibrium to your list. it's a great movie. definitely some food for thought.


Ultimately, my problem with them comes down to, the Houjin have both. either you say that they're extensively brainwashed, which would give their people in power ultimate power (which ultimately corrupts), or they're still a flawed people.


the last option is genetics: It is in our nature to consume what we can, because we have plenty of food. when a lion is hungry, he goes out, kills an animal, eats it and then sleeps. but humans skip the "go to sleep" phase.

it is -likely- possible that these mechanisms of greed can be genehacked and removed. however it likely is tied to our ambitions, desire to adapt etc. in essence, you could be compromising the survival ability of your entire people. you would remove your greatest possible enemy (for a race that is isolated, considers itself alone), but would be hazardous for one in combat.


In that respect, races like the Ancients and the Tollan are possibly examples of greedless people.


there is one last thing: i played a simple flash game quite some time ago. it was about exploring ruins. and then it turned out that the race it was about, had not known war and such in ages. it turned out they had created a programming that basically made them peaceful. but they became slaves to their own programming, as they could no longer turn it off, leading to their demise.

Their nano-machines haven't developed to the extent where they can build molecules. (it probably won't either for plot sake)

actually, i think this would be possible pretty early in Nanotech. however, there's a difference between a H20 molecule and, say, hemoglobin.

In the Taqir setting the nano-technology is too expensive to be used outside of specialized medicine and for its primary purpose which is the radiation and pollution problem.

given the way stuff works in our world, i'd add "used in molecule synthesizing",
"extreme toxic waste disposal", "smart catalyst applications" to that list.

they're mostly lab applications, and i can see some industrial applications. since i consider them steerable catalysts, they'd be able to catalyze chemical reaction. destroying and building molecules works, but destroying a large molecule is much easier than building a large molecule.


given the way you describe their nanotech, i'd say that it would be used a bit more broadly than you say, but all in high-tech applications, where the money required isn't as much of a problem. although i think self-replication would probably be forbidden by law by the Taqir.

[blackluster]

This is good, it could be interesting to see our races interact. I was considering having them be horrified at the way certain peoples live and wish to help weather the help is wanted or not, to relieve suffering. I was going to do it with the Tau'ri, have them being given a tour of Earth and being...appalled at the greed and waste. Then they think a plague of some sort is going around that causes bloating and abdominal distention, but then they learn thats just cellulite. But if you are interested we could do that with your guys instead. Have some side story.

It's possible but not likely. The most you'd ever see of them is something like an SG team. Maybe ships from time to time.

actually, i think this would be possible pretty early in Nanotech. however, there's a difference between a H20 molecule and, say, hemoglobin.

Maybe possible, but mostly pointless in their circumstances. They have cheaper, larger scale processes for simple molecules that makes the use of nano-machines for such processes impracticable.

given the way stuff works in our world, i'd add "used in molecule synthesizing",
"extreme toxic waste disposal", "smart catalyst applications" to that list.

Waste management falls under pollution control, though in terms of such processes, it's possible but again unlikely. The development curve for the nano-machines is heavy enough that the Taqir invest their efforts elsewhere. They only use it for things with no alternative, not simply for the sake of using it.

given the way you describe their nanotech, i'd say that it would be used a bit more broadly than you say, but all in high-tech applications, where the money required isn't as much of a problem. although i think self-replication would probably be forbidden by law by the Taqir.

Their law would not forbid it, they simply don't have the resources to expend on such development. Self-replication is an advanced function that they don't have. The have to process manufacture every single nano-machine that they want to use, they don't build themselves. That's why it is exotic technology.

[thekillman]

Maybe possible, but mostly pointless in their circumstances. They have cheaper, larger scale processes for simple molecules that makes the use of nano-machines for such processes impracticable.

true, they exist even in real life. i was more talking about the difficulty of producing large molecules. i think Nanites would have great applications for organic molecule synthesizing. (greater precision and purity).


Pollution would make things a lot more interesting for Nano, however. I assume the Taqir read their share of nano-horror stories? ;-)
(similar to earth and our movies about how machines grab power and kill us. which is why i think the Tau'ri will never allow that to happen, and would be shunning any form or incarnation of it).

That's why it is exotic technology.

ah ok. well, thanks for clearing that up.