Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

we have the Scorpion Gunship/dropship.

i think a Tau'ri supersoldier is unlikely to happen.

Yes, too low tech.

i mean, we dominate every one-on-one battle, it's the scale of war that's difficult for the Tau'ri. and on the ground, we can win.

I think that is called bad writing....

Against the Houjin they would have such a hard time, especially the Houjin have the same if not superior numbers with generally superior technology and are unified. Perhaps I should list off their ground combat weapons and vehicle technology.

[Gormagon]

Yokuzaki B-03 anti personal assault rifle A basic easy to use rifle commonly used by Houjin security forces and light duty assault teams.

Weight-3KG.

Length-800mm

Effective range-1200 meters at full auto. Max range- 3000 meters single shot.

Sights- Infrared/standard scope.

Feed system-300-600-1200 standard clip-3600 round drum clip.

Rate of fire-Max-1800 rounds per minute. Adjustable settings.

Muzzle velocity- 1000 meters sec.

Action- E.M driver powered by a LN cell.

Ammo- BB sized projectiles with explosives in them that make them as effective as normal bullets.

Other- Tranq dart launcher attachment.

Yokuzaki B-02 hand gun. (Series 2) A basic side arm commonly distributed to Houjin armed forces.

Weight- .5 KG

Length- 240 mm


Effective range- 300 meters.

Sights- Laser target attachment.

Feed system- 45 round-60 round clip.

Rate of fire- Semi automatic single shot. Full auto- 15 rounds per second.

Muzzle velocity- 450 meters per second.

Action- ?

Ammo- BB sized projectiles with explosives in them that make then as effective as normal bullets.

Other- Can be fitted with a miniature tranq dart launcher.

Anti-personal grenade.

Covers a 400 meter radius with diamond hard nano material shrapnel pieces. Effective shrapnel range is 60 meters.

*Note- May be overpowered.*

These are just some basic examples. I have more.

[Princess Awinita]

we have the Scorpion Gunship/dropship.

i think a Tau'ri supersoldier is unlikely to happen.


i mean, we dominate every one-on-one battle, it's the scale of war that's difficult for the Tau'ri. and on the ground, we can win.


for ground battles, i think more advanced MALP and UAV derivatives are far more likely. IE, UCAVs and explorer UAV's to aid SG teams, and mobile (Railgun) artillery, and APC-esque vehicles.

the emphasis would not be on ultra-heavy weaponry, but rather gate-capable, multi-terrain, multi-purpose vehices. probably with Railgun technology.

Depending on the super soldier, if you like I can give some examples, in fact I think I will; first example is known commonly as Project L.A.K.E., the second example is known as Project S.O.L.D.I.E.R. Project LAKE spearheaded the Project SOLDIER program upon its success in combat situations. On a ratio of 7/1 to even just get wounded in battle and still be on her feet.

Healing rate is indeed incrased compared to normal healing for a human body. In this case, two bullets to the kneecaps, normally one cannot walk again, even if they are able to, they limp. Not Project LAKE or Project SOLDIER supersoldiers. Project LAKE was shot in both knees, and then taken to a hospital, normal healing time is three to six months, LAKE got out in a month and a half, dead set on revenge.

That is just one of the drawbacks, revenge seeking, snapping and whiping out towns, etc. Also, DNA setup is more akin to animal of some type

[Gormagon]

Hover assault craft.
A ground support vehicle used when air strikes are not the best option. They are heavily shielded and armor plated and can hold up to 10 Houjin warriors. They hover at varying heights, up to 7 meters above a solid surface.

Armaments- 4 six barreled Yokuzaki immolation guns.(Really nasty projectile weapons.) One small thermal lance. 16 rockets 4 launchers.

Defenses- Houjin sensor disruption shield. Force field emitters. 2 cm Houjin battle armor.

Power source- 2 power cells, one small LN cell.



They use adapted versions of missile drones for air support.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Run for the hills!!!

I'm sure I must have said something ... but I'm so lost ...

[Gormagon]

Hover assault craft.
A ground support vehicle used when air strikes are not the best option. They are heavily shielded and armor plated and can hold up to 10 Houjin warriors. They hover at varying heights, up to 7 meters above a solid surface.

Armaments- 4 six barreled Yokuzaki evisceration guns.(Really nasty projectile weapons.) One small thermal lance. 16 rockets 4 launchers.

Defenses- Houjin sensor disruption shield. Force field emitters. 2 cm Houjin battle armor.

Power source- 2 power cells, one small LN cell.



They use adapted versions of missile drones for air support.

Any thoughts on the guns or craft?

[thekillman]

Yes, too low tech.

no, it's called "we don't need those" and "it's unlikely that in the current age, ethics will allow it"

I think that is called bad writing....

technically, no. humanity has the most advanced technology at it's disposal. on the ground, we have some of the best soldiers and the most stargating experience.

i consider full-fledged ground wars EXTREMELY impractical.

Against the Houjin they would have such a hard time, especially the Houjin have the same if not superior numbers with generally superior technology and are unified. Perhaps I should list off their ground combat weapons and vehicle technology.

Earth forces would kick the crap out of Houjin, Lucian Alliance, Jaffa, Tok'ra, Hebridan and what not forces in space, in an equal number scenario, against similar ships. (IE, Daedalus vs ha'tak).

ground forces? don't know, i think Earth would prefer getting the high ground first.

[blackluster]

Depending on the super soldier, if you like I can give some examples, in fact I think I will; first example is known commonly as Project L.A.K.E., the second example is known as Project S.O.L.D.I.E.R. Project LAKE spearheaded the Project SOLDIER program upon its success in combat situations. On a ratio of 7/1 to even just get wounded in battle and still be on her feet.

Healing rate is indeed incrased compared to normal healing for a human body. In this case, two bullets to the kneecaps, normally one cannot walk again, even if they are able to, they limp. Not Project LAKE or Project SOLDIER supersoldiers. Project LAKE was shot in both knees, and then taken to a hospital, normal healing time is three to six months, LAKE got out in a month and a half, dead set on revenge.

I assume this is part of that Asian themed Tau'ri colony you were making that acts as a military personnel training contractor and host the supporting facilities.

Hm, on super soldiers, the problem is exactly as killman has stated it: no one needs super soldiers, not as far as earth is concerned anyway. Earth's 21st century ground weaponry and tactics already stomps that of everyone else with the possible exception of the Lucian Alliance, and that is mainly because they trend low tech and tactics rather than fancy high tech.

For any kind of super soldier an enemy could want to field, Earth can come up with better solutions that super soldiers. I mean looking just at these L.A.K.E troops for instance, they are clearly more trouble than they are worth, so who in their right mind would want to waste their time on even fielding such a weapon system? No sane administrative oversight would ever approve it.

Weapon development is driven by necessity, partly because that is how intelligent people do it and partly because developing weapons is actually pretty damn expensive in time and money.

I mean you might whine that 'what if an enemy musters super soldiers?' The same thing modern tactics dictate anyway: tactical nuclear strike. The great equalizer. Anyone who tries to muster a large ground force against Earth is making a HUGE mistake. It doesn't matter how super their soldiers are.

Any thoughts on the guns or craft?

I'm still waiting to see how any of that armament makes sense in the context of the little you've said about why the Houjin are as they are. Until then it just looks like meaningless ideas floating around that Warhammer 40K came up with first anyway.

ground forces? don't know, i think Earth would prefer getting the high ground first.

Yes. Air, orbital and space superiority would be the primary focus for a conventional war.

I think wars in our time like Afghanistan and Iraq show why something of a ground force is absolutely needed and it also demonstrates why being forced to use that ground force really, really sucks and should be avoided if at all possible. Murphy's Law I guess.

[thekillman]

not to mention that a bullet to the head of a supersoldier is still lethal. sure, other parts might become less vulnerable by "supersoldiering".

my other concern is regarding the humanity of the soldier. i think Afghanistan and Iraq are perfect examples of what happens when you make soldiers so indoctrinated with killing the enemy, that they barely can control themselves. so far, the "soldiers go out on a rampage" type news reports have practically all been americans. in fact, when i read stories about how our soldiers are doing there, it's mostly about the civilians preferring ANY nation's soldiers over Americans.

the civilian comments were all along the lines of "Americans are trigger happy" "have no respect to our culture" "shoot first ask questions later".


What disturbs me is this:

That is just one of the drawbacks, revenge seeking, snapping and whiping out towns, etc.

if anyone did that, they'd be brought before court, and if the court has a good day, they'd get a bullet to their heads.

and partly because developing weapons is actually pretty damn expensive in time and money.

it kind of depends on the situation at hand. future weapons are all about minimal collateral damage, maximal target damage. it requires insane precision and extreme calibration.

I think wars in our time like Afghanistan and Iraq show why something of a ground force is absolutely needed and it also demonstrates why being forced to use that ground force really, really sucks and should be avoided if at all possible. Murphy's Law I guess.

the biggest problem is that it's a massively inequal war, where the opponent has little regard for Geneva and it's family. i mean, the Americans didn't sign every treaty, but the guys they're fighting signed none.

the other problem is, is that warfare up until now was about countries fighting countries. now, you're fighting footpeople on their own territory. and the money you spend on a tank, they can spend on 1000 anti-tank weapons. fired from any random well-hidden position.


similar things would occur in the Milkyway. the stuff you can bring through the gate is limited, and the stuff you can bring by space is limited. space-based troop and equipment transport is a pure nightmare. for every bunch of troops, you need a ship. that ship needs to be protected. the troops need to be deployed, then need to fight from unknown ground from a not necessarily beneficial position.

city shields and such will quickly put an end to ground-based invasions.




sure, you'll need them to control a planet in the end, but i think the book on stargate planetary conquering needs to be rewritten.

[thekillman]

Continuing the thought:

I consider there to be a dozen or so "untouchable" worlds in the Milky Way.

the "untouchables" are worlds sufficiently shielded, populated, armed and motivated that straight out conquering is out of the question.

Among many others of course, i can name a few:

-Omari's homeworld.
-Earth
-Jaffa Republic Capital.
-Langara


the only realistic way of getting them out of the picture is planetary carpet-nuking.
now there are some exceptions (IE, the LA temporarily conquered Langara), but in general, it's simply not feasible. you'd need a world's worth of troops to fight them.

the only real thing you can do with it, is either crippling (planet-wide tactical nuking), annexing (orbital conquering, and getting governmental power) or eradicating (carpet nuking).

[Princess Awinita]

I assume this is part of that Asian themed Tau'ri colony you were making that acts as a military personnel training contractor and host the supporting facilities.

Hm, on super soldiers, the problem is exactly as killman has stated it: no one needs super soldiers, not as far as earth is concerned anyway. Earth's 21st century ground weaponry and tactics already stomps that of everyone else with the possible exception of the Lucian Alliance, and that is mainly because they trend low tech and tactics rather than fancy high tech.

For any kind of super soldier an enemy could want to field, Earth can come up with better solutions that super soldiers. I mean looking just at these L.A.K.E troops for instance, they are clearly more trouble than they are worth, so who in their right mind would want to waste their time on even fielding such a weapon system? No sane administrative oversight would ever approve it.

Weapon development is driven by necessity, partly because that is how intelligent people do it and partly because developing weapons is actually pretty damn expensive in time and money.

I mean you might whine that 'what if an enemy musters super soldiers?' The same thing modern tactics dictate anyway: tactical nuclear strike. The great equalizer. Anyone who tries to muster a large ground force against Earth is making a HUGE mistake. It doesn't matter how super their soldiers are.

It actually all depends on one thing; how they are written. If written rightly, they are heros, but if wrongly, well, not so much. In the case of Project LAKE, when that soldier snapped and went berzerk whiping out that small town in Egypt {later seen in Transformers 2; Revenge of the Fallen}

In terms of money and administrative control, Project LAKE and Project SOLDIER were made purely through college and science grants then tested on the field of battle without government control or for that matter the government poking its nose in the project, which in the first place it never belonged anyhow and thus did not know about it at all. Using LAKE as the example, I have a scene I'd like to share relating to how such a soldier can be created and written up.

For one thing; the pros and cons of Project SOLDIER are pretty good

Pros;

Self Reliant: All SOLDIER project members are self reliant and can improvise on the spot for weapons, tools, even personal care in case of injury. Project LAKE has been known to use raw meat tightly wrapped in cloth around personal injuries to seep the blood infection away.
Extended lifespan: Given the fact they're created on cpomputer in the first place, then given a fake name for offical documentations, the lifespan of a SOLDIER Project member is doubled in apparent appearance age and also on documentation age, actual biological age is from first step from stasia tube. In this case, Project LAKE appears twenty, and offical documentation states she is 67 years of age, but her biological age is 16, Project SOLDIER members, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 9 are age ranged around seven to fourteen years of biological age.

Cons;

Prone to mental breakdowns; this is pretty self explaintory

There is also rumors of a new SOLDIER project known as Project 23, though it has been denied.

Like I said, it all depends on how the characters are written.

[blackluster]

the only realistic way of getting them out of the picture is planetary carpet-nuking.
now there are some exceptions (IE, the LA temporarily conquered Langara), but in general, it's simply not feasible. you'd need a world's worth of troops to fight them.

the only real thing you can do with it, is either crippling (planet-wide tactical nuking), annexing (orbital conquering, and getting governmental power) or eradicating (carpet nuking).

That's why I said its like Murhpy's Law. If the conflict has evolved into something that you actually need a ground force, then its almost guaranteed that it doesn't end well. It's just a matter of which outcome is the least terrible for the most people. (if one can make such a distinction)

It actually all depends on one thing; how they are written. If written rightly, they are heros, but if wrongly, well, not so much. In the case of Project LAKE, when that soldier snapped and went berzerk whiping out that small town in Egypt {later seen in Transformers 2; Revenge of the Fallen}

Yes it does depend on how its written, but you should at least concede that wherever such super soldier concepts are written, the universe within which they are written is actually designed to support them (like HALO or MD Geist etc) You cannot say the same for Star Gate.

In terms of money and administrative control, Project LAKE and Project SOLDIER were made purely through college and science grants then tested on the field of battle without government control or for that matter the government poking its nose in the project, which in the first place it never belonged anyhow and thus did not know about it at all. Using LAKE as the example, I have a scene I'd like to share relating to how such a soldier can be created and written up.

Having seen the genesis of one or two military projects and the exhaustive process it takes for these things to make it anywhere near a battlefield, I simply cannot agree with the ludicrous idea you've put forward here. It has absolutely no basis in reality. Soldiers have to be able to trust their lives to these systems at the end of the day. Fielding them isn't some slap dash process that you leave to run by itself without SERIOUS oversight. You shouldn't make light of how heavily the preservation of life is realistically weighted in such a process.

Like I said, it all depends on how the characters are written.

From what you've presented I think you have a hell of a lot more work and thinking to do. A weapon you can't control is worthless.

[StargateWatcher]

Be interesting if the Arata Houjinkou ally with the New Spartans.

[Gormagon]

Hm, on super soldiers, the problem is exactly as killman has stated it: no one needs super soldiers, not as far as earth is concerned anyway. Earth's 21st century ground weaponry and tactics already stomps that of everyone else with the possible exception of the Lucian Alliance, and that is mainly because they trend low tech and tactics rather than fancy high tech.

For any kind of super soldier an enemy could want to field, Earth can come up with better solutions that super soldiers. I mean looking just at these L.A.K.E troops for instance, they are clearly more trouble than they are worth, so who in their right mind would want to waste their time on even fielding such a weapon system? No sane administrative oversight would ever approve it.

The Houjins "super men/woman" are super easy to make, its all based on altering genetics well still in the womb using nanotechnology. A simple injection. No issues with money or time. Every Houjin has abilities like some of the people from Stan Lees super humans. The soldiers are simply given military training. I have adapted various training methods.

Weapon development is driven by necessity, partly because that is how intelligent people do it and partly because developing weapons is actually pretty damn expensive in time and money.

As the stories progress you will see the necessity of my weapons.

I mean you might whine that 'what if an enemy musters super soldiers?' The same thing modern tactics dictate anyway: tactical nuclear strike. The great equalizer. Anyone who tries to muster a large ground force against Earth is making a HUGE mistake. It doesn't matter how super their soldiers are.

Sure, you can take out armies with big things that go boom, but the enemy most likely has the same boom devices. Equality. However, when nuclear devices are not being used, the advantage would go to the race with the better soldiers.

I'm still waiting to see how any of that armament makes sense in the context of the little you've said about why the Houjin are as they are. Until then it just looks like meaningless ideas floating around that Warhammer 40K came up with first anyway.

I have never read or played W40k, I came up with those weapons, I based the numbers on an AK-47, a Beretta, and a frag grenade.

Yes. Air, orbital and space superiority would be the primary focus for a conventional war.

So, hmm, Drone fighters, missile drones, missiles and bombs? Then warships?

I think wars in our time like Afghanistan and Iraq show why something of a ground force is absolutely needed and it also demonstrates why being forced to use that ground force really, really sucks and should be avoided if at all possible. Murphy's Law I guess.

Dont get me started on that war....dear lord....

not to mention that a bullet to the head of a supersoldier is still lethal. sure, other parts might become less vulnerable by "supersoldiering".

True, but enhanced senses, reflex's would help, and a thing all my soldiers have called a helmet would prevent death by P-90, USAS-12 or MP-5 round. A HMG on full auto would probably work because of the concussions but my guys move quickly and with agility, kinda hard to get a shot. Never mind the fact that my super soldiers abilities cost comparatively nothing to produce, so my not>? If my guys were expensive sure, like in Iron Man two, the Hammer drones, 125m a pop and they lasted all of 15 minutes, there go's 4billion dollars. If they were cheap, sure why not.

I was thinking about them operating in small elite specialist squads anyway.

Be interesting if the Arata Houjinkou ally with the New Spartans.

Entirely possible.

[thekillman]

how they are written.

it depends on how they're designed. if you make them nothing but killers, they'll be nothing but killers regardless of who writes them and how. and what the hell is project LAKE, can't remember anything about it.

Cons;

Prone to mental breakdowns; this is pretty self explaintory

*spits out drink and gasps*

i'd have whoever came up with the idea, rounded up and SHOT if i was leader of that project.

The Houjins "super men/woman" are super easy to make

for the sake of clarity, call them enhanced soldiers. they're just human+ with the same guns and armor and technology as anyone else.

Sure, you can take out armies with big things that go boom, but the enemy most likely has the same boom devices. Equality. However, when nuclear devices are not being used, the advantage would go to the race with the better soldiers.

no. first, the advantage would go to the one with better tactics. then there's layers of ships, vehicles, logistics, and somewhere low in the pecking order would be the soldiers.

So, hmm, Drone fighters, missile drones, missiles and bombs? Then warships?

i'd reverse that order. Warships first, since you actually want control of orbit, so you obviously need something to kill enemy ships with and enemy planetary emplacements. then, you need some method of controlling enemy airspace.

Dont get me started on that war....dear lord....

i think it's an excellent lesson for humanity. i also think it shows that soldiers need some degree of humanity to function in any other way than killing.

but my guys move quickly and with agility, kinda hard to get a shot.

let's see how effective they are when they're hammered by LMG fire.

look, i know it's dangerous to draw from games, but have you ever played Battlefield 3? you can be as quick and agile as you want to be, but you're still as vulnerable as anyone else. it might increase your survival rate, sure, but they're hardly "Super."

the Kull are supersoldiers. the Spartans from HALO are supersoldiers. your guys fall in the "enhanced" soldiers category.


i'm not arguing that enhancing soldiers is bad, i am arguing that supersoldiers are ineffective.