Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[morrismike]

smaller ships would be more expensive. i think 1km civil supercarriers will eventually be phased in.


most of them would be "skeleton" ships. consider them likes Spines, with a structural back and support "ribs". nose filled with sensor arrays, back filled with reactors (actually i consider a hypercapacitor more likely), an engine array and a big, big and powerful "industrial" hyperdrive. i doubt those speeds would be even NEAR goauld speeds. first and foremost, the Military would not disclose such tech without severe considerations. and secondly, it's about cost effectiveness. i don't think the sheer energy costs and production costs weigh up against the add in speed. anything that needs to be done speedy would probably be done by either Gate or by a special "runner" freighter.


(and it's unlikely our super-freighters would be able to match Jaffa "independent" freight runners) [people with Tel'tak]

I would think a tugboat would be better. Design a space safe sealand container about the size of a football field and interlock a few dozen together. What dope train the LA was using would work well.

[blackluster]

But at this point wouldn't years of building hyperdrives reduce the price as well as the fact that earth now has it's own colonies along with off world trading partners reduce the cost of alien materials needed to make the hyperdrive?

I'm not saying we can crank them out I just don't think it should limit us to much.

In fact maybe the governments of Earth are still the only ones who build them and then sell them to the highest bidder for private use. That way the Gov's keep the secrets, make money and allow private companies to build just the "shell" of a ship and a few other vital systems then insert hyperdrive and it's good to go.

That doesn't really matter. What reduces the cost of high spec devices is mass production. To setup mass production is a massive initial capital investment that requires a very firm assurance that there is a mass market to justify the initial cost of mass production. Outside of that, custom builds are expensive, there isn't much you can do about it.

You would expect the price of a Bugatti Veron to come down for instance, no matter how many years it's being built for, because it is an extremely high spec machine but the market for it is not so big that demand can justify the setup costs of the manufacturing lines required to make production cheap. Similarly, a hyperspace drive is not a toaster. By all indications it isn't something that some guy can through together in a shed.

[thekillman]

i don't know about gate trains, i think gates would mostly be booked for passengers (it's actually not easy to transport humans through space)

hyperspace is a good medium, but given the use of naquahdah, it would be energy costly. thus, you'd need quite a bit of tonnage to make it cost-effective. Gate travel would be expensive because of demands, not actual costs.

i think it would become common to simply "book' a container on a mega-freighter for transports, like when moving to the colonies.



thinking about it, even the skeletal mega freighters would likely have "modules" with an amount of containers for easier dropping. the Megafreighter simply drops the cargo off to some space-borne platform, which then ferries it down to the planet.


i think aschen-style cargo "dumping" will be more effective and more likely. even then, you want as little stuff transported as possible.


thus, raw-ore transports simply won't exist. ore will be processed as much as possible to get a clean, useable product.

[immhotep]

i don't know about gate trains, i think gates would mostly be booked for passengers (it's actually not easy to transport humans through space)

Well its actually really easy to transport them, they weigh (with inertial dampeners) virtually nothing, its the space ship thats the problem, and you can put far far more humans in a small space ship than you can goods and raw materials. For bulk transport, the gate is always going to be the best option. Also you can book the gate for people as much as you like, first you can just add a passenger carriage, or put the gate on a turntable and when people from through turn the gate to another station. You can adapt the train model for humans and goods equally. Not that id trust national rail with either but the system is tried and tested on Earth and we can recycle so much of that it would be an utter waste to not use it. Also only works on the planets would be required to travel to those worlds. In which case they could either be incorporated in to the system (ie trains go from colonies to these planets at certain times, direct to factory) or they are already living on the planet in which case they can walk, drive or whatever. It would be the best possible solution to these problems. Also because we have alot to recycles, and in many hundreds of miles of tracks etc we can built far away from gates and expand as far as we like on to surfaces of planets.

hyperspace is a good medium, but given the use of naquahdah, it would be energy costly. thus, you'd need quite a bit of tonnage to make it cost-effective. Gate travel would be expensive because of demands, not actual costs.

i think it would become common to simply "book' a container on a mega-freighter for transports, like when moving to the colonies.

thinking about it, even the skeletal mega freighters would likely have "modules" with an amount of containers for easier dropping. the Megafreighter simply drops the cargo off to some space-borne platform, which then ferries it down to the planet.

Perhaps, for large scale moving yes, a freighter would be needed, but we havent ever done that in the past, i mean we could have sent promethius to atlantis but we used the gate. Our colonisation attempts are mostly gate based. As to demands, the point of this is that you would use the gates on planets only for certain uses, and block out all the rest. You wouldnt colonise a planet with a mine, a military base and a gift shop, it would be one thing only. There might be multiple uses for SOME colonies, but this explicit network would be exclusive to just one use, the depots and the trade centres would be where the demand issues come in to play. Where the demand would become and issue as many companies would vy for shipping by gate. This would be a point where other ships and methods might be in play. But for the initial stages gate trains would be a great advantage.

[thekillman]

Well its actually really easy to transport them,

humans have needs. cargo is "stupid". no food, no air, no heat, really you barely need anything.

[immhotep]

humans have needs. cargo is "stupid". no food, no air, no heat, really you barely need anything.

Depends on cargo...the power requirements needed for life support in SG seem minimal, wheras keeping certain cargo in ideal conditions, or to stop it blowing up or to create a hyperspace window large enough for a megafreighter would be huge in comparison..

[thekillman]

Depends on cargo...the power requirements needed for life support in SG seem minimal, wheras keeping certain cargo in ideal conditions, or to stop it blowing up or to create a hyperspace window large enough for a megafreighter would be huge in comparison..

it's not just life support. people want service. untill we can freeze people down, it's a far more complex thing than some electronics, metal bars, or even cars.


the difficulty of travelling to mars is not the tech but the humans involved.

[immhotep]

it's not just life support. people want service. untill we can freeze people down, it's a far more complex thing than some electronics, metal bars, or even cars.


the difficulty of travelling to mars is not the tech but the humans involved.

I think your skirting around giving me a real discussion on the Gate train, not sure why. Its always been one of the best ideas for expanding the tauri infrastructure in the gateverse. I think we should talk about it more. We even have models and specs for them from the OSDT and previous fleets.

[Crazy Tom]

It sounds viable. we should really run some path on that, but if we use high speed gate trains to send people and cargo through the Earth gate (where there's lots of demand to go through), they can be sent to secondary stations where they can be dispersed at a more leisurely rate. This would likely be what constitutes off world travel for the first years after disclosure. We could even take another Stargate and use one for cargo and the other for people, less need for integration that way, keeps cots down.

I don't think trains would work through, with the tracks disappearing to the event horizon and what not, my money's on some kind of maglev. The people versions would just be maglev subway cars.

Using the gate like this would actually justify Earth's Terminal being busy 24/7. It would probably be among the first of it's kind too, political value there.

[immhotep]

It sounds viable. we should really run some path on that, but if we use high speed gate trains to send people and cargo through the Earth gate (where there's lots of demand to go through), they can be sent to secondary stations where they can be dispersed at a more leisurely rate. This would likely be what constitutes off world travel for the first years after disclosure. We could even take another Stargate and use one for cargo and the other for people, less need for integration that way, keeps cots down.

I don't think trains would work through, with the tracks disappearing to the event horizon and what not, my money's on some kind of maglev. The people versions would just be maglev subway cars.

Using the gate like this would actually justify Earth's Terminal being busy 24/7. It would probably be among the first of it's kind too, political value there.

The Earth gate is the main issue in terms of using Gate trains I agree. While offworld we can network various random gates and planets at will, we have quite a network of potential planets we relocate various people too, off the grid of the goauld map etc. I actually think having multiple gates on Earth MAY work. But we would need to be careful. We only have one gate on Earth, but, and im not sure on the storyline, is Atlantis still parked on Earth? In which case we have options.

There are several ways we could work it to reduce costs and expand the infrastructure. Depending on what the situation is, if we have a new SGC or terminal for gate travel, it can be adapted and integrated within the rail network. Or at least with a provision to ship people to an offworld terminus which would then forward on. I think because our exploration of the universe has depended on Gate travel for the past 10 years, and because we actually do, legitimately in the gateverse, have the most comprehensive knowledge of the gate system as a whole in the galaxy. At least in terms of adjusting and using the stargate for our own purposes, having Iris control, macro forwarding, gate bridges, knowledge of the dialing program, C. Updates, morgana's modifications to create a micro network. All those things would enable Earth's use of the gate to be more industrial and intensive than we have ever seen it being use for. Someone mentioned the aschen further back, they use the dumping through the gate system, and connect planets up in this manner, our system would equate to this but in a way that allows us to maximise our resources and still have an impact.

As to the exact type of rails, tracks, engines, carrages etc used. I think we would start from the known and what we have. We have for example the PJ. A handful of Jumpers stationed on Earth would be the initial base for the project. Earth can create a PJ sized, air tight pod with a bulkhead. All these pods would need is to be shaped and magnetically linked to two PJ's (one front driving, one rear adding additional propulsion/steering/defense). That would be is origin, but then later on we could develop our own version of the PJ ends of the trains. Not our own PJ's perse but to replace them in the train system. These carriages could be fixed to a rail or track which went up to the gate and on the other side reattaches to another rail fixed by the EH. To solve the issue of various uses, perhaps two monorails, one fixed above (for people) and one below (for goods) could be developed. Allowing x to stop, y to follow, y to go in one direct (to houses, offices etc) y (to go to a refinery etc). Theres loads of variations on it that we could impliment to upgrade and refine the system. Way too much potential to leave it.

[thekillman]

We only have one gate on Earth

we have 47 from the Gate Bridge

All those things would enable Earth's use of the gate to be more industrial and intensive than we have ever seen it being use for.

true. that is one of our "powers".

some time ago i proposed a thing i codenamed "the Nexus"


in essence it was a space station and the logistic center of Earth's "empire".

the idea was that Earth established it's own Gate Network with it's colonies and planets, and that nobody outside it could access the private network.

the Nexus had, in my original idea, 8 Stargates. but 2 works fine too. the Nexus is the entrance and exit to the private network. it also has large storehouses and sorting systems to quickly get the cargo from a planet to the destination.

a maglev "shooting" and "catching system solves this. it uses inertia to shoot the train straight through the gate, so the last, say, 15 cm or so are travelled by the train through the air, and the first 15 are too.

[immhotep]

true. that is one of our "powers".

some time ago i proposed a thing i codenamed "the Nexus"


in essence it was a space station and the logistic center of Earth's "empire".

the idea was that Earth established it's own Gate Network with it's colonies and planets, and that nobody outside it could access the private network.

the Nexus had, in my original idea, 8 Stargates. but 2 works fine too. the Nexus is the entrance and exit to the private network. it also has large storehouses and sorting systems to quickly get the cargo from a planet to the destination.

a maglev "shooting" and "catching system solves this. it uses inertia to shoot the train straight through the gate, so the last, say, 15 cm or so are travelled by the train through the air, and the first 15 are too.

In the original 2.0 we had the trade stations along these lines. At that point we hadnt thought about the gate train idea but they could be incorporated in that kind of function very well. A fusion of the trade stations, gate hub, and gate train ideas. Along with a Tauri network of connected planets. Either through creating our own network isolated from the general system, or just filtering processed by incorporating anubis's forwarding system/the macro systems based on what the DHD detects. If we expand the logistics, and tamper with the way the gate works in a more direct way, then we could devise away to combine this forwarding system, but with another stage before. Our cargo is first converted in to an energy signature (through a beaming node or something similar) these are then uploaded in to a buffer and the gate can then be on 'auto pilot' with schedules buffer dumps taking on a few seconds, and reassembled on the other side. This however is a later system, for the post revelation, initial colonisation/industrialisation stage then the gate train system would be the best star. We already have many of the thought process's required. Another important part is that for, say, atlantis, a single gate train, could contain enough cargo to keep the base going for several months. Making the deadalus supply shuttle defunct. Giving us an extra ship to play with

But I like the concept of the Nexus, and it has precident in the fleets so like it even more. These stations could provide the intermediate between the cargo fleet shipping lanes and the gate system. I have some ideas on it, if Earth wanted and original one then feel free to rip off the trade stations, if you wanted a more origional idea, I had this concept that after disclosure members of the trust used thier hatak fleets but put stargates on them, and conducted thier trade through these from the safety of the edge of the galaxy. They certainly have alot of space, and we have seen them with gates and many of them have cargo carrying functions and various levels of docking and cargo transport functionality. Im thinking of the initial stages, I have yet to grasp exactly what stage Earth is at. Clarifying that would be great

[thekillman]

Making the deadalus supply shuttle defunct. Giving us an extra ship to play with

i think that ultimately, supply ships are needed for any non-Tau'ri world. i also think that there won't be dozens of them, not initially.


secondly, i think the beaming thing is WAY too far advanced and complex for us.

thirdly, no need for complex things like Gate Forwarding. in essence, gate communication would be used to monitor the entire Tau'ri network, and you'd simply be able to validate that planet X is dialling you.


the dual stargate thing is IMO a minimum: one section completely designed for incoming, and one completely designed for outgoing. i'd either use multiple gates and have all the room i need, or i'd use two gates and have them mounted on some system to quickly switch between passenger and cargo etc.

[Crazy Tom]

I just want to say one thing: space stations aren't the way to go for these nexuses. Stargates don't have limited range, not on a galactic level, not modern ones. Stations need artificial gravity, life support, atmospheric containment, redeundancies, they need to be built form scratch, they cost way more than any planetside facility. The smart thing to do would be to place out secondary distribution centers in a small area of space where they can be well protected. The planets they're located at might not have lots of resources or the best weather, but their economy wold be based on the gate trade network.

Having said that, I thought we agreed Sol's gate terminal is on the Moon, could we not simply split the terminal into a smaller passenger part and a bigger cargo part? One gate each, operating at alternating intervals?

Thirdly, I'm iffy on the gate macros... I know it's something we did, but frankly... the concept of manipulating matter on that scale and precision as a matter of course raises way too many warning bells in the back of my mind.

[immhotep]

i think that ultimately, supply ships are needed for any non-Tau'ri world. i also think that there won't be dozens of them, not initially.

secondly, i think the beaming thing is WAY too far advanced and complex for us.

thirdly, no need for complex things like Gate Forwarding. in essence, gate communication would be used to monitor the entire Tau'ri network, and you'd simply be able to validate that planet X is dialling you.


the dual stargate thing is IMO a minimum: one section completely designed for incoming, and one completely designed for outgoing. i'd either use multiple gates and have all the room i need, or i'd use two gates and have them mounted on some system to quickly switch between passenger and cargo etc.

Yes I agree that supply ships are needed to an extent, but one of the things that I thought about was that the Tauri would have public trade centres. Planets where people come to trade with us, beyond the more private network of production worlds connected by the train. And so in these cases, while we have ships that can 'ship' to other worlds, equally other races and trades come to these planets by ship and can buy direct.

I agree on the advanced incarnations, we dont need them. They are much much later extrapolations on the system, we would be at these stages in the former 3.0 kind of situation. Wherby we had the resources and infrastructure to implement these kind of systems throughout the empire.

On the gate hub space station from the old fleets we had the gate in a central position, with a 5 point pivot, (2 for cargo, incoming and outgoing, 2 for outgoing and incoming trains, one for additonal services) anything coming through sent a signal to the terminal, the gate moved in to position accordingly and it was all timetabled 24/7 so nobody got mixed up. PJ's counted as trains and docked in the main station, in a queue that they could leave at points along the track which allows them to move upwards in to a parking bay or in to space. Additional services are for weapons deployment, military extras, various extras and VIPs that are rarely used due to 'demand' issues. The main military stuff is conducted from other bases offworld.

Again thats from the 3.0 fleets. But besides that context of it being a major station etc, the system might be an idea. Multiple gates on a single planet would kinda ruin canon a little, but it would take some issues away. We could make an exception for Earths central terminal though..