Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

That's the problem that I am seeing with this race.

Most races that have been made and agreed upon haven't been based upon being butt kicking force but rather a society that is slowly integrated into the fleet. Even my Spartans were toned down drastically when I gave into reasoning.

So stop trying to make them strong against everyone in the galaxy. Next thing you are going to tell us is that they are immune to drone weapons because you know about them. I mean you can't have them be 100% ready for any given attack from any given enemy in the stargate verse.

Make them have weakness or what's the point of your race? To pick on and destroy all other races involved?

If I wanted I could make them all powerful. I have dozens of scifi series at my disposal, hundreds of books,(Yes hundreds.) and an unknown number of computer games.

I am dialing them down A LOT, but reversing 12+years of a thought process is going to take time. My family is very, very competitive, and that mentality is deeply ingrained in me.

No, that is going too far, making them immune to Drone weapons, I am trying to keep them from becoming too uber well not weakening them for no reason, and like the Aschen I am trying to make them well prepared. They have been building for centuries for a war with the Goa'uld, what do you want me too do? I cannot change every core bit of information that makes them them without them no longer being my race.

They do have weaknesses, their soldiers and ships are not invulnerable.

They did have a bigger purpose lol, but that got...hmm...shot down? So now their main purpose is what their secondary used too be, an ally against various enemies. The Kaizoku Karuteru(An offshoot of the Houjin people.) were going to help balance the power of the Houjin.

Stealth probes 101-They were developed by all three of the major corporations of the Houjin working together, Yokuzaki armaments Mittsakuo kironics and Seronashi propulsion at the behest of the Shogunate during the war with the Kaizoku Karuteru. The probes were invaluable in securing vital intelligence during that conflict and ended the war quickly, saving thousands of lives.

The stealth probes purpose, spying. Collect information without betraying its presence. It is ftl capable, but only short distances.

What so illogical about its design? Its very Houjin. It can function equally with both ends. It has redundancies. It has sensor mesh over much of its hull for maximum passive scan. It has advanced optical sensors for observing things that its mesh may miss. Its entire mesh structure can work together too actively scan. The mesh is protected by shielding. It has nanites stored that can repair the mesh or other delicate components over time. It has A.I. that has a learning capacity to help it in new situations that were not programmed into it. I used to have it so that there was no naquadah in its construction, making it less likely to be detected or noticed by the Goa'uld,(Or other enemies, I see naquadah sending up flares as far as scanners go) but that may change because of power requirements so I will have to add insulation, perhaps Osmium or another metal in the platinum family. <Lets work with those for now. Whats illogical?




About the decay thing, I know its not that important, what about the type ex star? You said the large naquadah nucleus is held together by exotic particle force, so a huge type ex star, a star containing many kirons and ex particles, could fuse iron into naquadah when it went nova yes? And it would not decay because of kiron theory.

[immhotep]

Sorry Ive been away for so long, my internet got completely cut off over the weekend and ive been just unable to do anything online. just gunna restart on this page lol

one of the things i thought about was that they could be in a (Potentially emotion-surpressing-drug induced) Age of Reasoning. it would be a strange, kind of alien but also very human kind of setting. you know, purely based upon utility and not upon fancy. kind of like the "industrial" feel. simple colors, utilistic design. smooth, perhaps. but no ultra-shiny tools or so. maybe a kind of strangely basic yet advanced look.

it would definitely require subtlety. that is, their entire society would be based upon subtlety. an Aschen with a smile would be the equivalent of a human rolling on the floor laughing. humor would be more subtle. perhaps more science based.


it would definitely be interesting to kind of have them be more like that. that dullness as a trademark. cold and calculative. i think it should go further than looking and acting boring and official.

I think the concept of an age of reasoning for the aschen is a really interesting concept. I wonder how well we could compare the aschen mentality to the Vulcan's. A very logical race pushed to advance at the rejection of emotion. It could be an interesting twist on them.

On the Serenity note, I think the Aschens mastery of biotechnology may have played a part in this being more effective as a model than in Firefly/serenity. In fact, going slightly further, it could be part of their entire conquest routine. Not only have the aschen supressed their emotions, but it could be a method by which they subdue thier colonies and other populations in the federation. Potentially the antiaging vaccine could include a cocktail of complex emotional surpression drugs, more subtle than brainwashing but effective in keeping people in line.

[Gormagon]

Mhm it could be interesting.

So I take it the Aschen never had a backfire like in Firelfy/Serneity? No vicious cannibalistic raping berzerker mutilated freakazoids called Reavers developed? No one just laid down and died because they stopped caring?

[immhotep]

That we know of. for all we know there could have been in the past, but the aschen have been out there for the best part of 2000 years and could have perfected it over all that time.

I just wanted to chip something new in that perhaps we havent talked about before.

What is happening to the Unas? and I had an idea about a new minor faction in the galaxy, basically an older style of goauld that predate the tokra/Goauld schism. That never stopped using Unas as hosts but have eventually developed a new technology base. needs more imput, welcoming it now

[thekillman]

I think the concept of an age of reasoning for the aschen is a really interesting concept. I wonder how well we could compare the aschen mentality to the Vulcan's. A very logical race pushed to advance at the rejection of emotion. It could be an interesting twist on them.

the reasoning behind it was kinda like the movie Equillibrium: a very dark period in Aschen history fuelled by emotions kind of let them to believe emotions had to be controlled. now i consider it likely that it kind of got out of hand.

Not only have the aschen supressed their emotions, but it could be a method by which they subdue thier colonies and other populations in the federation. Potentially the antiaging vaccine could include a cocktail of complex emotional surpression drugs, more subtle than brainwashing but effective in keeping people in line.

ah yes, kind of like adding in reward hormones which not only make taking those drugs pleasant, but also kind of add in drugs that make the humans less moany and easier satisfied.


it won't be like a movie sedative where it's insta-effect. in fact, for it to go unnoticed you'd need to slowly increase the dose

So I take it the Aschen never had a backfire like in Firelfy/Serneity? No vicious cannibalistic raping berzerker mutilated freakazoids called Reavers developed? No one just laid down and died because they stopped caring?

why would that really happen? i know Brain chemistry is still like 90% voodoo to us, but that doesn't mean you can't alter some of it without massive backfires.

the Aschen maybe had a few, but they'd definitely prevent massive backfires

[immhotep]

the reasoning behind it was kinda like the movie Equillibrium: a very dark period in Aschen history fuelled by emotions kind of let them to believe emotions had to be controlled. now i consider it likely that it kind of got out of hand.

ah yes, kind of like adding in reward hormones which not only make taking those drugs pleasant, but also kind of add in drugs that make the humans less moany and easier satisfied.

it won't be like a movie sedative where it's insta-effect. in fact, for it to go unnoticed you'd need to slowly increase the dose

We dont know much about aschen history but yeah its perfectly possible they had a period like that and then came out of it, thier version of the enlightenment.

And I agree, this could have been done over hundreds of years, and just not implemented yet in the case of hoffan or wherever it was in 2001. But basically they can regulate the development of various planets, and alter thier emotional supressions in various doses to counter uprising, sedition, questioning of the aschen etc. They can use emotion and psychosocial conditioning on a planetary level and use this as part of their wider control of the federation, including in their own populations (but voluntary for 'true' aschen) perhaps with a rebel faction which rejects the supression technology.

[Gormagon]

Bunch of druggies if you ask me.

But yeah I agree, at least three hundred years of experimentation and perfecting the process.

I still think they are about 400-600 years ahead of the Tau'ri in general technology.

[Crazy Tom]

You're overestimating the rate of technological advance Gor, it's exponential rather than linear.

Secondly, I'll pitch in on the Houjin: my issue with them is that they're boring: standard sci fi fare, nothing new. Feudal Japan IN SPACE, for lack of a better term.
My advice is, forget combat. Ditch it all-together, go and make a good socio-economic base for them, figure out a history, research similar situations that other cultures have experienced on Earth in the past, keep in mind that they've been cut off for a long time and they'll develop into new paths.
They don't need to have a defined purpose, they just need to be interesting and thoroughly detailed and reasonably original. Owing a hundred sci-fi books does not a great world-builder make, what works fr 40K is not what works in SG. Far from it. Military events in real life make up a small fraction of a culture's concerns.

[Gormagon]

You're overestimating the rate of technological advance Gor, it's exponential rather than linear.

I know advancement is exponential, (look at computers, cell phones, smart phones, I pods.) but overestimating? Huh? Unless exponential does not mean what I think it means...

Secondly, I'll pitch in on the Houjin: my issue with them is that they're boring: standard sci fi fare, nothing new. Feudal Japan IN SPACE, for lack of a better term.
My advice is, forget combat. Ditch it all-together, go and make a good socio-economic base for them, figure out a history, research similar situations that other cultures have experienced on Earth in the past, keep in mind that they've been cut off for a long time and they'll develop into new paths.
They don't need to have a defined purpose, they just need to be interesting and thoroughly detailed and reasonably original. Owing a hundred sci-fi books does not a great world-builder make, what works fr 40K is not what works in SG. Far from it. Military events in real life make up a small fraction of a culture's concerns.

Actually I own no W.H-40k books. Go figure....I own a ton of books, around a hundred, 20+ per shelf, 4 shelves plus a bunch on my floor. But I have gotten another ton from the library, at least 100 because I have read a 64 book series, and then a bunch of miscellaneous scifi books. But my entire point with that was that I could have gone super uber with them, like the Swarm, combined together every good thing from each of the books, shows movies and games I have read, watched or played but I did not.

That is one of my problems though, I have tried to spice them up, but my ideas got shot down. But I will definitely work on the history more, I have been wanting to anyway. But as far as combat go's, I was always annoyed with Star Trek because of the lack of combat in the shows and books. They tried fixing that in Star Trek: Enterprise but they did not get good crew chemistry, nor did they stick to the already established Star Trek cannon very well.

I vowed to have plenty of action in any stories I happened to write.

But like I said, I have been wanting to work more on the history for a few weeks now. And add to the already established economic system. And their religion, I have done almost nothing with that.

Ok, I am going to get to work on ancient history first and get up to what I have now.

*Scribbling sounds*

[Crazy Tom]

I also caution against too much detail. Any culture will have a healthy dose of variance.

[Gormagon]

I was thinking something like the book Spocks world it had short stories spanning from prehistoric Vulcans to in system colonizing and asteroid mining and the time of Surak. A collection of different sections of their history, but all about one chapter long.

[thekillman]

Bunch of druggies if you ask me.

it's kind of confusing as in English, Drug can mean both medicine and the stuff you smoke/blow/whatever.

i very much doubt it would be drug-like. it would be more like a medicine.

perhaps with a rebel faction which rejects the supression technology.

i was more thinking of a conspiracy fringe group spread across the planet. i doubt it would need to be enforced by law.


it might give the Aschen the unique ability to admit mistakes. think "cylon" in terms of admitting mistakes.

Feudal Japan IN SPACE, for lack of a better term.

ten points for referencing Tvtropes XD

I could have gone super uber with them, like the Swarm, combined together every good thing from each of the books, shows movies and games I have read, watched or played but I did not.

whatever you develop i can do better. it's called "arcturus". or "arcturus with a matter bridge". let's destroy universes.

this is not about "i could make them totally uber". EVERYBODY can. making something nice, fun, balanced is far harder than something uber, and it was a trade the SG writers CLEARLY did not have.

ah well purpose. yes i meant something a bit...wider than just story-purpose. some races admittantly are there because they SHOULD be. i mean, if the hebridans suddenly disappeared it'd be crazy. however there can be a purpose to a race other than pure story potential. the Machai are about what an alien race would look like that's a bit ahead of us. not evil, just a nice race. however they meet the Lucian alliance first, so their view of the galaxy is influenced by them. i wanted to explore what an alien race looked like when you'd give them a "like earth unless noted" treatment.

I was thinking something like the book Spocks world it had short stories spanning from prehistoric Vulcans to in system colonizing and asteroid mining and the time of Surak. A collection of different sections of their history, but all about one chapter long.

TBH you don't need 20 pages of history in whatever form to make a race function today.


i give you perhaps the most powerful thing in terms of story for your use. use it carefully.

TVtropes.org

random useful page:
Backstory

and don't go on a Wiki Walk

[fugiman]

Also remember just because you know something about stargate verse doesn't mean the Houjin will know about it and making them prepared for races they don't know about it uber at least IMO.

[blackluster]

Stealth probes 101-They were developed by all three of the major corporations of the Houjin working together, Yokuzaki armaments Mittsakuo kironics and Seronashi propulsion at the behest of the Shogunate during the war with the Kaizoku Karuteru. The probes were invaluable in securing vital intelligence during that conflict and ended the war quickly, saving thousands of lives.

The stealth probes purpose, spying. Collect information without betraying its presence. It is ftl capable, but only short distances.

What so illogical about its design? Its very Houjin. It can function equally with both ends. It has redundancies. It has sensor mesh over much of its hull for maximum passive scan. It has advanced optical sensors for observing things that its mesh may miss. Its entire mesh structure can work together too actively scan. The mesh is protected by shielding. It has nanites stored that can repair the mesh or other delicate components over time. It has A.I. that has a learning capacity to help it in new situations that were not programmed into it. I used to have it so that there was no naquadah in its construction, making it less likely to be detected or noticed by the Goa'uld,(Or other enemies, I see naquadah sending up flares as far as scanners go) but that may change because of power requirements so I will have to add insulation, perhaps Osmium or another metal in the platinum family. <Lets work with those for now. Whats illogical?

The combination of technologies is illogical. You could put a backhoe on a Ferrari but it makes no sense to do so since you defeat both specialized purposes.

You claim to remove naquadah to hide it from Goauld but then you go and install an ftl drive on it, the power requirements for which are massive to the extent that simply making the window generator for the probe dimensions you've described requires naqaudria research, something even the Goa'uld had not mastered.

Then you've installed optical sensors for "observing things". Observing what? Planetary installations? You don't need 60 cameras for that. Ship movements? This has no utility. At the speed light travels your probe would have to be right on top of whatever it is looking at to get any meaningful realtime data. For meaningful tactical data, one doesn't even need optics (the additional processing requirement for imaging is a major drawback on something you have essentially defined as an autonomous platform.) Furthermore, optics, like any wave collecting sensor, is only as effective as the amount of energy it can gather. This is why deep space telescopes have such large mirrors, in order to gather energy into the sensor aperture. Making sensors twice as large as a human eye, you should not expect to see anything significant at any decent range. There is simply not enough surface area for good resolution.

With the tech deployed on this probe it is barely stealth anymore. You could just as well put everything on a ship where you can protect your investment better.

[Gormagon]

it's kind of confusing as in English, Drug can mean both medicine and the stuff you smoke/blow/whatever.

i very much doubt it would be drug-like. it would be more like a medicine.

Again, humor.

it might give the Aschen the unique ability to admit mistakes. think "cylon" in terms of admitting mistakes.

What are these mistakes you speak of?

whatever you develop i can do better. it's called "arcturus". or "arcturus with a matter bridge". let's destroy universes.

Uh, one I already know about Arcturus, and several other universe destroying weapons, including one that eliminates all of reality, which would be our universes matter, alternate universes matter, other dimensions(Which includes all of subspace.) and time.

this is not about "i could make them totally uber". EVERYBODY can. making something nice, fun, balanced is far harder than something uber, and it was a trade the SG writers CLEARLY did not have.

Apparently. But I am trying find a balance between weakening them for no reason and not making them too powerful.

Did you just compared me too Stargate writers?

Spoiler:

ATTACK!

ah well purpose. yes i meant something a bit...wider than just story-purpose. some races admittantly are there because they SHOULD be. i mean, if the hebridans suddenly disappeared it'd be crazy. however there can be a purpose to a race other than pure story potential. the Machai are about what an alien race would look like that's a bit ahead of us. not evil, just a nice race. however they meet the Lucian alliance first, so their view of the galaxy is influenced by them. i wanted to explore what an alien race looked like when you'd give them a "like earth unless noted" treatment.

Speaking of history, I was wondering about including that the Houjin fought off an alien race in the ancient past on another planet,(Stargates) and called them evil spirits. Could the Ma'chai be those or should I dig through my large mythology data base?

TBH you don't need 20 pages of history in whatever form to make a race function today.

I was going to do short skits out of the history books, important events, then do a grouping of short stories in one, each one jumping a few hundred years.

i give you perhaps the most powerful thing in terms of story for your use. use it carefully.

TVtropes.org

Pandoras Pithos(Jar, were did the box come from?)..ring of power....Excalibur...

random useful page:

Backstory

and don't go on a Wiki Walk

K thanks. I shall skim.