Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[thekillman]

JUST that the ancients opened the eypgt gate and the romans followed, or forced the ancients to tell them.

ohh very nice and elegant. Janus was a time-traveller, and i know some of S09's work on it. yes, it's possible Janus lost faith in Earth and decided to "force his hand", allowing the opening of the Gate, and letting that Roman general take his forces (+slave forces, of which quite a few would be Celtic) through.

we KNOW the Romans had mixed armies and allowed newly annexed countries to supply soldiers, so it's possible that once offworld and once free from the Roman leash, they settled to their own.

Planets only ruled by the goauld for a brief time, or not atall, such as Bedrossia (where nefertum left thousands of years ago with no reason) are good examples.

true. and we don't even have to pin them down. that's the great part. we don't have to make a list. Daniel explaining this finding is already sufficient. it might be a collaboration with the Hebridans to better examine their History and good old Danny finds hints that the Hebridans in fact originate from a period on earth around the roman period while we previously thought the gate had not activated since 5000 years ago.

Im about to go out so ill make this quick but Earth has been shown to have a significantly larger and denser population than any human civilization in the gateverse

i simply refuse to believe and accept that Earth can reverse engineer about everything in no-time. technically, we should have enough data to be busy reverse-engineering for the coming 500 years.

yes we gathered plenty of tech. but we have thousands of years of technology to catch up to, plus a whole area of science to catch up to. i think Asgard tech will remain the pinnacle for ages to come, plus that proper, full understanding of it will take decades.


and to be honest, we don't NEED better tech. Earth's production capacity is very limited compared to what's possible. yet every ship we build is stronger than any enemy ship. our fleet by default is stronger, better, faster, more powerful.

yet the LA controls multiple earth-like planets. the Machai have greater numbers than Earth. better production tech. but are limited in their battle capacity, speed, shields, etc. they'll have trouble catching up with Goauld ships for quite some time. they've begun researching the Lucian blueprints they received for production, but as i consider quite a bit of it the absolute pinnacle of Lucian technology, it'll be even more pinnacle for the Machai.

Gormagon, speaking from personal experience, if you think about the ease with which technology is reverse engineered in the gatevese and try to explain it, you'll get an aneurysm.

true, but i think it needs to be more realistic. although i must say, i initially believed we never built asgard tech, and that the Asgard simply built it FOR us. i do not believe anything indicates we actually built that tech.


i think we're stuck to the Asgard's shield design and can't modify it without the thing blowing up in our face or melting down. the Valkyrie or the Athens simply have a smaller respectively bigger version of the one on the Deadalus, if at all. anything smaller than the Valkyrie will have to rely on Goauld shielding technology.


it's the same with everything. plus, Asgard tech requires neutronium, and it's not exactly the most abundant material, so Earth's production will require it and control of Neutronium planets will be a definite problem. even though the LA won't be able to use it, it's likely they'll want them purely to deny earth the resource.

[Gormagon]

yet every ship we build is stronger than any enemy ship. our fleet by default is stronger, better, faster, more powerful.

Shield wise probably, with the exception of fighting someone like the Asgard or Asurans, and the hyperdrive but what weapon systems do the Tau'ri ships have in GWF besides rail guns and missiles?

I really did not like how easily they were destroying Asuran ships in the battle over their homeworld. Perhaps it had something to do with modulations however, considering all the weapons being used. Although I think the writers just beefed up again.

i think Asgard tech will remain the pinnacle for ages to come, plus that proper, full understanding of it will take decades.

Well, perhaps not the pinnacle of technology, that would be Lantian, or other such race, such as the Adnihilo.(<Yes I know they are allowed on 4.0 its just an example.) But yes, It should take us a long time to completely understand and then actually be able to make the technology. We could incorporate basic aspects I think, like some of the operating principles of the shields.

Asgard tech requires neutronium

Yeah, "real" much Asgard technology requires Neutronium.

Power sources
I was thinking about the options for power sources in Stargate, I like a wide variety of technologies myself, and I just felt like listing the possible sources of energy in Stargate.
Coal/Oil/Natural gas.
Wind
Solar
Nuclear fission-Steam to turn the turbine to make electricity.
Nuclear fission-Plasma/radiation energy?
Ram scoop-Destiny.
Deuterium/tritium fusion.
Helium fusion.
M/A
Naquadah fission.
Neutrino ion generator.
Naquadria fission.
Advanced neutrino ion generator.
Subspace tap-Just draws out the raw energy and radiation in subspace.
Q-ball reactor-Would this be better then a Z-PM?
Z-PM-Various levels of advancement.
Singularity tap-?. Does this actually provide alot of power, I.E Hawking radiation, or did it just slow down time around the Supergate allowing the wormhole to stay active longer?

[immhotep]

Just noticed weve all changed titles, finally im Admiral Immhotep

[Gormagon]

Yup, killman is StarFleet Commander. And..I am a bridge officer.

[thekillman]

Well, perhaps not the pinnacle of technology, that would be Lantian, or other such race, such as the Adnihilo.(<Yes I know they are allowed on 4.0 its just an example.) But yes, It should take us a long time to completely understand and then actually be able to make the technology. We could incorporate basic aspects I think, like some of the operating principles of the shields.

i think its obvious that Lantean tech will be out of our reach for quite some time.

the asgard tech we have will remain the pinnacle for us for a long time.

I really did not like how easily they were destroying Asuran ships in the battle over their homeworld. Perhaps it had something to do with modulations however, considering all the weapons being used. Although I think the writers just beefed up again.

thats the Death Ray at work. i hated how they were used.

Q-ball reactor-Would this be better then a Z-PM?

whats a Q-ball?

Singularity tap-?. Does this actually provide alot of power, I.E Hawking radiation, or did it just slow down time around the Supergate allowing the wormhole to stay active longer?

Black Holes do provide power, but i guess it was the insane dilation of 2 Black Holes that kept it active for so long without requiring ZPM orders of power. given that nobody ever stayed long near the Supergate, Time Dilation would not be that much of a problem.

Just noticed weve all changed titles, finally im Admiral Immhotep

XD. you finally have a title worth your name. Admiral, ( Gateworld Virtual Fleet Admiral)

oh the irony


lol i feed Picards fish (hover your mouse over the green bar)

[Gormagon]

i think its obvious that Lantean tech will be out of our reach for quite some time.

the asgard tech we have will remain the pinnacle for us for a long time.

Yeah that is what I mean.

thats the Death Ray at work. i hated how they were used.

The shields still should have lasted longer than they did though. And sometimes it was not the beams it was other weaponry, F-302 missiles for example.

whats a Q-ball?

http://members.fortunecity.com/templarseries/qball.html
Here you go. I used advanced Q-ball reactors for the Jah'Kal. They used their psionic warriors to contain any exotic particles produced.

Black Holes do provide power, but i guess it was the insane dilation of 2 Black Holes that kept it active for so long without requiring ZPM orders of power. given that nobody ever stayed long near the Supergate, Time Dilation would not be that much of a problem.

Mhm.

lol i feed Picards fish (hover your mouse over the green bar)

Yeah I just noticed those yesterday.

[Crazy Tom]

Commodore, I rather like the sound of that.

[thekillman]

Here you go. I used advanced Q-ball reactors for the Jah'Kal. They used their psionic warriors to contain any exotic particles produced.

uhm no. this assumes SuperSymmetry is true. it's an excellent source of WIMPS to explain Dark Matter, but since Subspace interacts with Realspace through gravity, i'd say Subspace is the phenomenon we experience as Dark matter.


it explains other things like the hyperspace speed discrepancy. that is, the fact that intergalactic speeds are not reached in subgalactic distances. as Subspace is more dense near Galaxies, there would be more resistance to the hyperspace field and thus less speed.

oh and i realized that THE ATA gene does not exist.

the ATA gene, as Beckett says, "instructs the cell to produce enzymes and chemicals to interact with the nervous system. however, a gene only encodes one chemical.

this means that the gene works with other genes. those genes however too encode only one chemical. and since those genes are present within quite a few humans and since the ATA gene has a "strength" factor, it's in fact the complex interaction of several genes, where what we call the ATA gene is in fact the Master Gene: the gene steering those other genes.

it also explains why the ATA gene therapy is only partially succesful and why the treated have a quite weak ATA gene: they lack several of the core or supportive genes to generate the changes needed.


i would alo like to change the way we see the ATA gene. it is not an activation gene, but rather the core neccesity for neural interfaces.

in short, the ATA gene steers a series of genes which are responsible for neural changes in the human body needed for brain-technology interfaces the kind Ancient tech requires.

Destiny's tech suggests that previous tech is in fact less sophisticated in it's interface. so the ATA gene does not just create a tech lock, but also allows a more sophisticated interface.

[Gormagon]

uhm no. this assumes SuperSymmetry is true. it's an excellent source of WIMPS to explain Dark Matter, but since Subspace interacts with Realspace through gravity, i'd say Subspace is the phenomenon we experience as Dark matter.

Aww....well, how good would a Q-ball reactor be if SuperSymmetry was true?

WIMP=Weakly interacting massive particle right?

it explains other things like the hyperspace speed discrepancy. that is, the fact that intergalactic speeds are not reached in subgalactic distances. as Subspace is more dense near Galaxies, there would be more resistance to the hyperspace field and thus less speed.

Interesting theory.

But iron and carbon steel is so weak and easily oxidized compared to alloys of rhenium, iridium, osmium, niobium, molybdenum, tantalum, tungsten, and a dozen others I could mention. Even if it is relatively cheap. I suppose they could use it for expendables and temporary bases...but why? There are more then enough of the other metals available, and the Houjins advanced technology makes them easy to mine, manufacture and cast, and alloy, just like it would with iron. And some of those metals above are very non reactive when it comes to oxidization.

Iron might be damn strong for its cost, but other metals are stronger and better. They could use iron and steel alloys for cheap things and expendables I suppose, but why not nickle super alloys? They have heavily mined two dead worlds, they would have plenty of nickle available. And like you said, although only grams stronger, it still matters. Using iron when you have access to superior ship or base building materials is like using fission instead of fusion.

And like I said, they would have perfected bulk manufacturing processes for nano-materials. They are centuries ahead of us. Again, technological specialties- Metallurgy/nano engineering, fusion, robotics and bio-science. That may sound like alot, but there are plenty of other specialties, particle physics/high energy physics,(Could fusion be included in that?) Shield design, hyperdrives, sublight propulsion, computers, sensors and temporal mechanics for example.

We are having a Star Wars marathon. Looking at the freaking gigantic metallic constructs in that universe actually makes me rethink about the whole iron/steel thing. Perhaps they could be filler metal. Overlay it with other metals.

Many races in Star Wars build stuff out of "Durasteel" "Plasteel" and "Transparisteel". There are probably advanced methods that could be used to make it a viable metal for spacecraft, but I was thinking more of using it for cities.

But that would only be if other metals like nickle, molybdenum, tantalum tungsten e.c.t. are not common enough...I mean, what kinds on tonnage are we talking about here? So...

The bulk of the nickel mined comes from two types of ore deposits. The first are laterites where the principal ore minerals are nickeliferous limonite: (Fe, Ni)O(OH) and garnierite (a hydrous nickel silicate): (Ni, Mg)3Si2O5(OH)4. The second are magmatic sulfide deposits where the principal ore mineral is pentlandite: (Ni, Fe)9S8. Based on geophysical evidence, most of the nickel on Earth is postulated to be concentrated in the Earth's core. Kamacite and taenite are naturally occurring alloys of iron and nickel. For kamacite the alloy is usually in the proportion of 90:10 to 95:5 although impurities such as cobalt or carbon may be present, while for taenite the nickel content is between 20% and 65%. Kamacite and taenite occur in nickel iron meteorites.

So, uber common. And the Houjin could core mine if necessary I am sure.

Molybdenum is the 54th most abundant element in the Earth's crust and the 25th most abundant element in the oceans, with an average of 10 parts per billion; it is the 42nd most abundant element in the Universe.[5][6] The Russian Luna 24 mission discovered a molybdenum-bearing grain (1 × 0.6 µm) in a pyroxene fragment taken from Mare Crisium on the Moon.

So not abounding, but still way common.

Tantalum is estimated to make up about 1 ppm[27] or 2 ppm[20] of the Earth's crust by weight. There are many species of tantalum minerals, only some of which are so far being used by industry as raw materials: tantalite, microlite, wodginite, euxenite, polycrase. Tantalite (Fe,Mn) Ta2O6 is the most important mineral for tantalum extraction. Tantalite has the same mineral structure as columbite (Fe,Mn) (Ta,Nb)2O6; when there is more Ta than Nb it is called tantalite and when there is more Nb than Ta is it called columbite (or niobite). The high density of tantalite and other tantalum containing minerals makes the use of gravitational separation the best method. Other minerals include samarskite and fergusonite.

Not really sure.

Tungsten is found in the minerals wolframite (iron-manganese tungstate, (Fe,Mn)WO4), scheelite (calcium tungstate, (CaWO4), ferberite (FeWO4) and hübnerite (MnWO4). China produced 51,000 tonnes of tungsten concentrate in 2009, which was 83% of the world output. Most of the remaining production originated from Russia (2,500 t), Canada (1,964), Bolivia (1,023 t), Austria (900 t), Portugal (900 t), Thailand (600 t), Brazil (500 t), Peru (500 t) and Rwanda (500 t). Total-60,387 tons. So that is Earth.

So not particularly common, on Earth at least.

Iron is the sixth most abundant element in the Universe, formed as the final step of nucleosynthesis, by silicon fusing in massive stars. Metallic iron is rarely found on the surface of the earth because it tends to oxidize, but its oxides are pervasive and represent the primary ores. While it makes up about 5% of the Earth's crust, both the Earth's inner and outer core are believed to consist largely of an iron-nickel alloy constituting 35% of the mass of the Earth as a whole. Iron is consequently the most abundant element on Earth, but only the fourth most abundant element in the Earth's crust.[14][15] Most of the iron in the crust is found combined with oxygen as iron oxide minerals such as hematite and magnetite. Large deposits of iron are found in banded iron formations. These geological formations are a type of rock consisting of repeated thin layers of iron oxides, either magnetite (Fe3O4) or hematite (Fe2O3), alternating with bands of iron-poor shale and chert. The banded iron formations are common in the time between 3,700 million years ago and 1,800 million years ago[16][17]
About 1 in 20 meteorites consist of the unique iron-nickel minerals taenite (35–80% iron) and kamacite (90–95% iron). Although rare, iron meteorites are the main form of natural metallic iron on the Earth's surface.[18] It was proven by Mössbauer spectroscopy that the red color of the surface of Mars is derived from an iron oxide-rich regolith.[19]

So, quite common but not nearly as good as the other metals listed.

Carbon is quite abundant and can be used in iron alloys, along with with chromium, vanadium, manganese, zirconium or zinc. But carbon can also be used to make Fullerene, a material far superior to iron/steel alloys.

But it would probably be easier to just erect force fields in the shape of a buildings super structure and poor in molten super steel then construct your average building out of Fullerene. Yeah, that is what I shall have the Houjin do to build city buildings and things. But their steel would not oxidize and be many times stronger then your normal steel alloy. I really like force field casting. Set up a bunch of emitters to make the force fields into the shape of whatever you want then poor. The shields would cool the metal rather quickly, just like with Atlantas's shield when the Stargate exploded.

Advanced robotics would be used for Fullerene based materials.


The Houjin have access to multiple metal and carbon containing planets, moons and asteroid belts.

Commodore, I rather like the sound of that.

Ill buy you a hat with a big feather Commodore Crazy.

[thekillman]

Aww....well, how good would a Q-ball reactor be if SuperSymmetry was true?

WIMP=Weakly interacting massive particle right?

no clue. but if the theory is right and the Q-ball does exist, then you're looking at proton fissioning with some 90% of it's mass being converted to energy.

But it would probably be easier to just erect force fields in the shape of a buildings super structure and poor in molten super steel then construct your average building out of Fullerene. Yeah, that is what I shall have the Houjin do to build city buildings and things. But their steel would not oxidize and be many times stronger then your normal steel alloy. I really like force field casting. Set up a bunch of emitters to make the force fields into the shape of whatever you want then poor. The shields would cool the metal rather quickly, just like with Atlantas's shield when the Stargate exploded.

a few things:

-supercooling it is a bad thing. well, it can be used to harden your metal, but you'd want to cool it down and reheat it. not melt it down again, but you're looking at some 300-500 degrees celsius. this way the cooling stresses are reduced and the material is less brittle.

-ever thought of Asteroid Mining?

-Fullerene, to my knowledge, would come as fibers. you'd need to work your fibers into a viable material. metals are so popular because you can cast them. Fullerene is something you can not cast, at least, not if you want a taste of it's superior properties.

[thekillman]

good i have read up on nanoscience.

first of all, i have a downer for you:

Nanomaterials are very ductile. Gold is too. in essence, a long fullerene cable will expand in length. comparable to iron(and any metal) this creates Cold Hardening. thus, the cable becomes stronger. and longer. this happens as early as 5% of the total tensile strenth. while this is at a crazy high 63-100GPA (if i remember correctly Alloy Steel is about 60GPA), it has one more property that's useful: it's density is 1.3 g/cm^3 compared to stel's 7.2 g/cm^3.

in essence, the effective strength is much, much higher.

i must say however that Steel is not the best at that. many polymers have better strength/weight ratios, and Carbon Fibre is a good example of such a material.


one more bummer: while pulling forces are where nanomaterials shine, compression forces are where they suck. it's why Reinforced Concrete is such an extremely useful material. Steel is excellent at pulling forces, Concrete is excellent at compression forces. since the rule of the strongest material applies, whenever there's a pulling force, Steel is the material you calculate by, and whenever there's a compression force, Concrete takes the greatest stresses.

it's thus likely that Nanomaterials are not used in pure, but rather in additive form. there's been experimentation for cross-linking, which is also a solution for the Ductility problem (compare it to Polymer cross-linking), but that's useless if you want to have carbon actuators.


furthermore, by what i've read, the most advanced production techniques we have can make this stuff. i consider it extremely unlikely that this stuff will be used for every application. sure, high-end applications will love it. it's where Aerospace materials are used too. it's at the extremes where such materials are made and needed.


i consider it likely that, should a Mass Driver be made, it will have quite a bit of Nanomaterials worked into it, including Fullerene (since that's the collective name) supermagnets potentially out-doing Neodynium, nano-hardened concrete, and in fact, structural supercapacitors, where entire structures made of Concrete can double as (not super high end but powerful by quantity) supercapacitors.


true, it holds a lot of potential, but quite frankly we still make our normal houses from brick and cement. it'll take quite some time before Aerospace materials reach our normal households (to the fullest, since Electronics make great use of them already), and Nanomaterials will likely be used for Military and Aerospace applications for a long, long time, before it's in your cellphone.



one more thing: Nanomaterials are possibly toxic and cancerous. well not all of them, but it WOULD limit the potential applications. this research has only just begun, so the exact extent is not known. some consider it the new Asbestos.


i question the use of some forms of nanomaterials in light of this since Trinium is a similarly light and strong material without nasty potentially toxic effects.



so again. it's likely to be used in high-end applications and i really doubt this goes commercial that easily.

[Gormagon]

supercooling it is a bad thing. well, it can be used to harden your metal, but you'd want to cool it down and reheat it. not melt it down again, but you're looking at some 300-500 degrees celsius. this way the cooling stresses are reduced and the material is less brittle.

Ok, so controlled force field cooling.
-

ever thought of Asteroid Mining?

^

The Houjin have access to multiple metal and carbon containing planets, moons and asteroid belts.

-

Fullerene, to my knowledge, would come as fibers. you'd need to work your fibers into a viable material. metals are so popular because you can cast them. Fullerene is something you can not cast, at least, not if you want a taste of it's superior properties.

^

Advanced robotics would be used for Fullerene based materials

it's thus likely that Nanomaterials are not used in pure, but rather in additive form.

So layer them over the building for protection from weaponry? Outer shell of nanomaterial but inner core of super steel and Houjincrete?(Concrete.)

true, it holds a lot of potential, but quite frankly we still make our normal houses from brick and cement. it'll take quite some time before Aerospace materials reach our normal households (to the fullest, since Electronics make great use of them already), and Nanomaterials will likely be used for Military and Aerospace applications for a long, long time, before it's in your cellphone.

Mhm k, but the Houjin are a little bit ahead of us. And my main concern is just making sure they have it for military applications. Also, the Houjin could make Fullerene materials far superior to anything we have I would think.

[thekillman]

Ok, so controlled force field cooling.

i hate to be a yoyo, but no it doesn't work that way.

if you have steel, the best treatment is to rapidly cool it. when iron is hot, the carbon nicely spreads out. when you cool it slowly, you allow it to clutter together. what you want, is to cool it fast enough so it "freezes" into place.

now this creates cooling stresses. so what you want, is heating it up a bit to unleash the worst stresses without compromising your gained hardness.

so it's liquid -quick cooling> solid -> reheating but staying solid.


if i remember correctly, this isn't needed for alloyed iron.

So layer them over the building for protection from weaponry? Outer shell of nanomaterial but inner core of super steel and Houjincrete?(Concrete.)

no. for military-grade bunkers, you'll want "Nanocrete". consider it reinforced concrete, but replace the iron with nanofiber, since they have an identical role.

Nanofibers are soft from the sides, so while axial forces are excellently absorbed, radial forces are not. for armor, this would require more complex "woven" armor. one thing: it'spossible to create self-hardening armor. the advantage is that under pressure it gets harder than diamond. the disadvantage is that repairs would be a pain in the ass, especially if you use fullerene for everything since every weapon impact would make it a rather nasty superhard mess. to repair, you'd likely need to laser-cut a big hole to replace it.

lso, the Houjin could make Fullerene materials far superior to anything we have I would think.

i won't begin to speculate as Nanomaterials themselves are pretty much the pinnacle of OUR technology.

while an excellent technology, Nanotechnology has it's own weaknesses. it's not just rainbows and sunshine

[Gormagon]

i hate to be a yoyo, but no it doesn't work that way.

if you have steel, the best treatment is to rapidly cool it. when iron is hot, the carbon nicely spreads out. when you cool it slowly, you allow it to clutter together. what you want, is to cool it fast enough so it "freezes" into place.

now this creates cooling stresses. so what you want, is heating it up a bit to unleash the worst stresses without compromising your gained hardness.

so it's liquid -quick cooling> solid -> reheating but staying solid.

Ok, so let it rapidly cool into a solid phase using the heat dispersing abilities of a force field and perhaps some sort of magnetic cooling system the effects of which can go through the modulated shield, then reheat but not melt the metal, using a remodulated force field that creates heat? Or just heat up the metal through the shield using a particle wave? Then, let it settle back into a solid phase?

if i remember correctly, this isn't needed for alloyed iron.

Hmm?

no. for military-grade bunkers, you'll want "Nanocrete". consider it reinforced concrete, but replace the iron with nanofiber, since they have an identical role.

Nanofibers are soft from the sides, so while axial forces are excellently absorbed, radial forces are not. for armor, this would require more complex "woven" armor. one thing: it'spossible to create self-hardening armor. the advantage is that under pressure it gets harder than diamond. the disadvantage is that repairs would be a pain in the ass, especially if you use fullerene for everything since every weapon impact would make it a rather nasty superhard mess. to repair, you'd likely need to laser-cut a big hole to replace it.

So the iron rebar will be replaced with nano material.

Its doable. A complex nano weave/composite armor.

The repairs would not be so big of a deal, if it becomes harder then diamond just give it a paint job or have some repair drones get to work on it.

i won't begin to speculate as Nanomaterials themselves are pretty much the pinnacle of OUR technology.

while an excellent technology, Nanotechnology has it's own weaknesses. it's not just rainbows and sunshine

Mhm k. But they are still very useful for a wide variety of things and are also cool.

But as long as Houjin steel does not oxidize and is way stronger then Tau'ri carbon steel I will be fine with it.

[thekillman]

But as long as Houjin steel does not oxidize and is way stronger then Tau'ri carbon steel I will be fine with it.

i hate to say it this way, but ever heard of non-corroding steel? it's not as cheap as common steel, but it doesn't oxidize either.

there's only so much you can get from steel. but hey, if the Houjin can get the resources (like plenty of Chrome and Vanadium), they can just replace most steel with tool-grade steel and you're done. there's plenty of types of steel for every purpose.