Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Gormagon]

So in terms of the Houjin, you just not going to give a valid reason for it being the furlings as opposed to say the Asgard, or even Lantians or another race, heck use the trinium situation to that advantage. The goauld found no use for a region of space rich in a mineral that at the time they had no use for, and so the goauld who ruled that area who had been experimenting with it, left behind their technology based, helping to boost the Houjin, that goauld later died in some unknown conflict and the houjin were completetly forgotten because the goauld in question kept said research in to trinium a total secret. PERFECTLY GOOD backstory, NO FURLINGS.

I just thought that there would be no need to have any substantial back story involving the Furlings because we could just have Daniel(Or someone) say "Well, It turns out the Furlings brought them there. We are not sure why, and they moved on from this galaxy long ago." Or something. I wanted to use the Furlings because the Asgard and Ancients have been used everywhere already and I desired uniqueness, and the Nox would not have done it. So that left me with two options, unknown race, which would have to be even more completely made up, or the Furlings. An already established race. But I had no intent of developing anything substantial at all involving the Furlings at this point. Just saying that they brought them there. But I wanted uniqueness.

So I guess the Asgard did it or something. Or leave it as a mystery.

[immhotep]

Just in case people hadnt clicked on. I think im back...

And Im not trying to destroy all your ideas Gormagon, I think you have some really good ones but this is something we can actually help with. Coming up with new races, ship and concepts for the fleet is a process, and I know that all these posts and debates and the chipping away at your ideas feels like a bad thing but its not. Its fine tuning and honing your craft as a creative person. Being able to take criticism, go away, come back with something clearer and more thought through, and then repeating it is a skill and a quality that is really commendable. It also helps you find your feet here, because we obviously taking your ideas on board and helping you develop them in a constructive way, and probably in a way thats most helpful to you as a writer. Nobody here, and trust me ive had many batted away too, has come to us with a race so clear and developed and perfect that it hasnt had to be rewritten and discussed for 50 pages. Heck the reapers and Navos discussions alone take up 30% of everything written in 3.0. Its a massive part of the fleets, the collaborative element of fine tuning a race so it can fit and take part. Put it this way, most of your posts are about talking through your own ideas, if you just posted this and never got any feedback atall, then you would probably never developed it past your initial stages and I think that would have been a shame because I do think the houjin could have a place in the fleets. But that place is a collective decision and we have alot of experience crafting the kind of fleetverse races that have made the fleets so amazing in the past.

Just a few cent to keep you from wanting to kill us all, were not doing this to spite or bully you, this is how we help

Tep

[Gormagon]

*Puts down Valium pill bottle*

Ok...

[immhotep]

BTW I may chip in with my own new race along the lines of the historical goauld slave rebellion types in the near future. I havent done hardly anything but ive got two lines of enquiry im thinking about, reserve two words for the near future and ill get back to you.

Trojan
Templar

Tep

[immhotep]

OK so I was bored and couldnt sleep, Essentially a draft but i think its worth posting:

The Templars were a secret society initially founded in part by SG1, or inspired by them during the uprising. The secret society which formed the uprising in egypt lived on after the revolution and helped, perhaps planned by, SG1 with thier knowledge of the future, to cover up the stargates existance and alien interaction on Earth. This knowledge way known to only a few of the inner circle, but after the uprising were tasked with hunting down and driving out the last remaining goauld on Earth and trusted with the knowledge of the goauld, to continue to protect humanity from their influence long in to the future. Until such time as they would be able to defend themselves. In many ways their traditional mythology is fairly well written, and those who are familier with templar lore know that for example they are believed to have been at the highest echelons of power for thousands of years, due to a great knowledge they had over the rest of humanity. Many believe this to have been the holy grail but it was in fact knowledge of alien interaction on Earth. They remained in positions of power for thousands of years because it is to positions of power that any goauld would eventually wish to attain, and as such the best enviroment to hunt them in.

Eventually a goauld DID come to power, and overnight the templars were destroyed by the acts of the pope, who was for this brief period a goauld. But they did not die out. In fact they also had other more important secrets which had been passed down along their generations. Their knowledge of aliens and positions of power provided a great position by which they could cover up the merlin interactions and the whole athurian mythology was played upon by them as a part of a great ruse in order to keep some of the technology merlin left behind.

It was a bargin they struck with Merlin himself, as an ascended living on Earth he was well aware of their existance and planned for them to inherit some of the arthurian power he had gained and allow thier editting of history to continue. This included him leaving them some technology by which to do it. When the pope ordered them killed, history sees them killed. Actually what happened was that the goauld was killed, and replaced by one of thier own, who confirmed the killings allowing many of Templars to go in to hiding and seclusion to focus on learning more about the technologies of Merlin and most importantly to incorporate them in the last goauld mothership left in Earth's orbit by the outgoing pope. They had access to ring platforms and eventually discovered how to board. Over many decades and in great wonder they learned enough to leave Earth, taking with them all the treasures of their many many centuries in power. Including a significant reserve of all the remaining alien technology they had amassed since the goauld.

On leaving Earth the Templars had a single hatak, but it was FULL of examples of technology from the diverse spectrum of goauld around the planet, as well as artifacts and technology from Merlin and the Asgard. Of course this was still medieval technology, they were not advanced at this point. But in them, the templars had a purpose and a mission to seek out and destroy the goauld. They have been doing this for hundreds of years since, and advancing greatly in the process. Never able to return home because they, like all the other goauld and in many cases because of thier actions, were never able to learn the location of Earth's homeworld.

Our stargate address and hyperspace coordinates have never been given to the Templars, but they have been fighting Earth cause longer than anyone, and by now, they have a pretty good civilization out there in the galaxy.


My ideas are VERY sketchy, literally just done them, but im thinking about them being a sort of human underground movement like the Tokra that has been opperating in secret but on behalf of the human race. I was thinking that possibly, just possibly that they could be a secret faction of the LA or another power to bring to the table on Earth's side. BTW In them having merlin, asgard and goauld technology, i do mean that they would be quite advanced but limited, like the tokra, mobile, but used to positions of power. They set themselves up as ruling elites to lure goauld in, kill them, then steal the technology if possible or just leave. But they tend to go after minor goauld, as they are not great in number and use proxies. Its possible that some are just faking it as goauld or LA members to keep thier power. The real Templar order is diverse and spread out, they do have an advanced fleet but their technology is hourded in various locations and thier upgraded hataks are just used in conjunction with normal ones so that they blend in to the galaxy. As they rule by proxy in most cases, thier armies and resources are as great or small as the places they rule or impersonate and vary in scale from very minor to quite serious players.

I think they could add a really nice twist at some point to the LA and to a number of other storylines where it is seen fit. Its unlikely that all the Templars would know who each other are, and therefore unable to completely coordinate but certainly a secret society like this would be a great new player, replacing the tokra in the dynamic they used to have with the goauld in the new human paradime.

DRAFT

Ill check back in the morning, i need sleep, its just a few bits and i may work on the Trojans, essentially along the same lines as the spartans though but with a more ship based nature and im thinking the walls of troy meant a Asgard shield they deployed by mistake and have since integrated in to their fleet offworld. So really strong sheilds, prob weak weapons, lots of fights in terms of a military..

Right sleep!

Tep (Gormagon, you have produced in me, the first ideas in years so thank you!)

[fugiman]

Tep I like the idea of the Templars starting with SG1 back in time. However what if Daniel found a stasis pod and used it. That was the secret that the Templar's had was Daniel Jackson. Using his knowledge of the future, history and all around cultures he was able to keep the templars ahead of everyone else and in doing so made sure no more goa'uld could rise to power.

Over time Danial hears about a magician in England with real Magic. So Daniel and the Templars find Merlin. So Danial Jackson trying to infiltrate the group made up a name he knew from Arthurian Legend and calls himself Galahad. That's why Merlin thinks he is Galahad when he first meets him. So after meeting him and finding out that he isn't a goa'uld but an Ascended Ancient. So Daniel decides that he would rather live a short life with Merlin then keep going into stasis decides to stay and learn.

Well anyways when Merlin leaves Earth he trusts Galahad with what he leaves behind. Daniel then makes it so that future Earth can find Merlin's toys not knowing how important it actually will be one day because this is the Daniel from season 8.

So after Daniel leaves the Templar's their power still grows as they have connections and alien technology to back them up. So then we can hit your idea that they rise to power and wipe out goa'uld that way.

Just an idea I had when you were talking about Merlin


Just an idea

[immhotep]

See that works! Collaboration! Yeah it folds in really neatly, I like that alot. Perhaps Daniel even helps merlin in some ways and is another reason why Morgana 'knew him' while he was ascended. Because she watched Merlin while he was on Earth she was also aware of Daniels time travelling and future self and informed him of it...I like, it would also help jump start a little of their technology base as ahead of the curve, not overtly to mess up timelines but in terms of helping them understand the technology as not magic etc, and therefore allowing them to study in secret. And as an order which transended the general technological process of human development they would have been able to preserve all the knowledge and scientific advancedment from the egyptions and roman and apply them to the goauld stuff, given that the dark ages set us back so far, if they werent affected by that on Earth then by 1,500 ish when they were destroyed it would have put them at about our level or a little over of knowledge, enough to at least get the technology working and understand it to some degree.

[thekillman]

WRONG, they are a tactical disaster and shouldnt move. With Gate technology and hyperdrives there is no need for such a tactical base when in reality with a decent hyperdrive any area of the galaxy is not too far away to require the presence of a crucial piece of infrastructure which if lost would do untold damage to a races ability to recover. Plus iif a 'fleet' is going then there should be enough of them to shuttle or carry cargo enough to support their opperation or run relays to the base ship in a safe zone. Also with stargates if a fleets crew want 'a home away from home' they can just go home!

yes we know that. but the Arata something don't have uberfast hyperdrives and extensive knowledge of the Gate Network.

I would say that after the industrial and Earth level of tech, in the galaxy there are three levels of technology based upon thier use of the alien materials;
Level 1 - Naquadah/Goauld
Level 2 - Trinum/Aschen/Tollan/Asgard
Level 3 - Nuetronium/Lantian/Asgard/Replicator

i agree with that. in fact, my Theory agrees with that too, as the relative density of exotic particles gets greater with the nucleus.


not too sure about the templar. now you see technology, and i think it's quite dangerous to just go ahead and give them well-understood goauld tech, as well-understood goauld level of technology means a tech level actually HIGHER than the Goauld.

the opportunity for Daniel however would be humongous. not too happy as it's a mirror of 3.0, but i definitely see the possibility. i would prefer, however, if it happened forcibly. IE, daniel is in Egypt, and knowing the future, tries to prevent the egyptians from gaining access to super-advanced alien technology. he manages to found a small group who helps him oversee the use of that alien technology, to ensure such power never gets used wrongly.

due to betrayal or so, Danny gets knocked unconscious, and wakes up as the Roman Empire begins to fall, having spent all that time in a stasis pod. he quickly determins it's an Ancient oupost, but carrying the burden of the Future, he know he can't use it. he leaves, and reconnects with his organization. it has already grown out to a much bigger one, but they recognize Daniel without effort from a painting, and welcome him back after he demonstrates his knowledge.

realizing what is about to happen, Daniel and his future Templars ensure many "heinous" books are not burned, and ensure to maintain that knowledge. he gives a new set of instructions and tells them to reawaken him when a great wizard shows up. this lands daniel in the Arthurian period. here, he helps Merlin, convinces Merlin to hide the weapon and convinces Morgan to keep him alive, and prophesizes the return of the Ori.



by now, all goauld on earth are thought to be dead. Daniel, knowing the risk of exposure gets bigger and bigger with every day, orders an exodus through the Stargate. the Stargate is unburied in Egypt, and the Templar move through with all their belongings and leaving no trace. once the Gate shuts down, a handful of templar left behind buries it again.


Daniel, because of the Stasis imperfection and the years out of stasis, is extremely old, and decides to enter stasis for the remainder of his time, should he ever be needed again. the Stasis Camber has been disassembled and reassembled offworld, and even today is the "tomb" of Jackson.

the organization, the "templar" now have a permanent settlement offworld, on the north and south poles of a planet several degrees hotter than Earth, where the Arctic region is a lush landscape and the equator is one massive desert.

the Organization has always been years ahead of Earth technologically, and some 50 years before Earth did, the Organization incorporated Goauld technology into their own, beginning to prepare for a war against the Goauld.


oh and Tep:

the ninja is not my concern, or the Samurai. it's the samurai with the samurai sword and modern versions of 2000 year old technlogy. realistically, such a samurai would carry a gun and a basic knife and that's it.

[immhotep]

not too sure about the templar. now you see technology, and i think it's quite dangerous to just go ahead and give them well-understood goauld tech, as well-understood goauld level of technology means a tech level actually HIGHER than the Goauld.

the opportunity for Daniel however would be humongous. not too happy as it's a mirror of 3.0, but i definitely see the possibility. i would prefer, however, if it happened forcibly. IE, daniel is in Egypt, and knowing the future, tries to prevent the egyptians from gaining access to super-advanced alien technology. he manages to found a small group who helps him oversee the use of that alien technology, to ensure such power never gets used wrongly.

due to betrayal or so, Danny gets knocked unconscious, and wakes up as the Roman Empire begins to fall, having spent all that time in a stasis pod. he quickly determins it's an Ancient oupost, but carrying the burden of the Future, he know he can't use it. he leaves, and reconnects with his organization. it has already grown out to a much bigger one, but they recognize Daniel without effort from a painting, and welcome him back after he demonstrates his knowledge.

realizing what is about to happen, Daniel and his future Templars ensure many "heinous" books are not burned, and ensure to maintain that knowledge. he gives a new set of instructions and tells them to reawaken him when a great wizard shows up. this lands daniel in the Arthurian period. here, he helps Merlin, convinces Merlin to hide the weapon and convinces Morgan to keep him alive, and prophesizes the return of the Ori.

by now, all goauld on earth are thought to be dead. Daniel, knowing the risk of exposure gets bigger and bigger with every day, orders an exodus through the Stargate. the Stargate is unburied in Egypt, and the Templar move through with all their belongings and leaving no trace. once the Gate shuts down, a handful of templar left behind buries it again.


Daniel, because of the Stasis imperfection and the years out of stasis, is extremely old, and decides to enter stasis for the remainder of his time, should he ever be needed again. the Stasis Camber has been disassembled and reassembled offworld, and even today is the "tomb" of Jackson.

the organization, the "templar" now have a permanent settlement offworld, on the north and south poles of a planet several degrees hotter than Earth, where the Arctic region is a lush landscape and the equator is one massive desert.

the Organization has always been years ahead of Earth technologically, and some 50 years before Earth did, the Organization incorporated Goauld technology into their own, beginning to prepare for a war against the Goauld.

See I think my version is actually better. Although I think we can incorporate elements of yours I think it works that its not about the technology, its actually about covering up Earth's interaction with aliens. Hourding technology is an example of that, like the caches of goauld weaponry all over egypts, they take those with them. My idea is that because they take with them examples of a whole range of goauld technology, mostly from higher echeolons of the goauld elite, they are in a great position to infiltrate them when they get out in to the galaxy. As they have remained largely unchanged it stands to reason that the goauld would have a court of some degree and blending in would be the best way to monitor the galaxy and pick off the ones they could. When I said advanced goauld level of technology what I mean is that they use goauld ships and weapons alot, alot like the LA and Tokra.

They have a decent understanding of it and a few examples of more powerful ships that they have aquired or developed over the years, some based on technology removed from Earth in past. Most of the goauld technology that remained on Earth after the stargate rebellion was taken by the Templars, which explains why there are so few examples of staff weapons and hand devices and cargo ships lying about, considering the goauld were here for thousands of years and we find pretty much everything else the romans, egyptions and other societies left behind there must be a reason we have found virtually nothing on Earth of that nature. Most of the more advanced technology is not of the ship or weapons kind, Merlin never left weaponry and never disclosed the outpost to the Templars, but he did give them enough knowledge to use the stargates, ring platforms and other transport technology. He also left behind a cache of random inventions, such as cloaks and handheld computers and communication stones and the like. Not military hardware but the kind of stuff that would be really useful to this kind of organisation, global communications at a time when it took months to get messages from country to country would have put them way ahead of the game. Phase cloaking devices would have been reallly helpful in hiding their bases and treasures. That is one technology are quite good at, like the Sodan, they learned from merlin how to phase cloak, and thats how they all disappeared at once, phased, met up, and then left. Just because I say they took all of Earth's alien tech in the past, doesnt mean to say they are incredibly advanced and have studied it and are really powerful. They know nothing about shields, hyperdrives, weapons or the like. They steal what they can, patch in from relics what they are able and use a pretty standard mix of goauld technology, modified for thier own use and sometimes souped up in conjunction with artifacts from Merlin and other races encountered on their travels.

As to the whole Daniel element, I have mixed feelings, I would rather Daniel to not be involved, or just lightly, than try and overcomplicate that with status chambers and time travelling plots. Its kind of more elegent that these guys formed the society based on information given to them by Daniel...maybe he made them a tape or worked with them for the first few decades after the rebellion. But I think there are other ways for them to do this without him being directly alive and working with them. Id rather that than him be overthrown and locked out etc, I just dont feel that would be right..

[Gormagon]

I like the Templars....not sure about the Trojan part l.o.l. And it would be an interesting twist to have had Danny boy with them in the past I must say. It would make some connections and stuff.

Um, your welcome on the idea, but how did I inspire it?

Realistically, having very advanced swords that could cut through a Marine in full gear with one swing and be moved faster then a normal Human eye could track because of bio and techno upgrades to the Samurai would make it pretty darn useful. But they also have particle rifles and plasma blasters with Bayonets and knives hidden in the armor. Speaking of armor, I suppose it does not have to be as bulky as old Samurai armor, but it will still have similar design aspects and be way more advanced then any Kevlar suit reinforced with titanium.(Bat man.) Yeah, I would be fine with a more streamlined and highly effective armor that still showed Houjin culture.

Key words, modern versions.

I have been sketching Houjin ships, I will be attempting to upload them onto the site at some point.

[immhotep]

I like the Templars....not sure about the Trojan part l.o.l. And it would be an interesting twist to have had Danny boy with them in the past I must say. It would make some connections and stuff.

Um, your welcome on the idea, but how did I inspire it?

The Trojans and the Templars are seperate ideas. Unlikely to coincide.
Just generally chatting with you and helping out has inspired me

Realistically, having very advanced swords that could cut through a Marine in full gear with one swing and be moved faster then a normal Human eye could track because of bio and techno upgrades to the Samurai would make it pretty darn useful. But they also have particle rifles and plasma blasters with Bayonets and knives hidden in the armor. Speaking of armor, I suppose it does not have to be as bulky as old Samurai armor, but it will still have similar design aspects and be way more advanced then any Kevlar suit reinforced with titanium.(Bat man.) Yeah, I would be fine with a more streamlined and highly effective armor that still showed Houjin culture.

Key words, modern versions.

I have been sketching Houjin ships, I will be attempting to upload them onto the site at some point.

Ok stop with the sword stuff. Unless we go to lightsabers were not going to get them back in a way that is consistent. But them being there as ceremonial, backup weapons, fine, but dont make them uber advanced for no reason. For the record, any good quality Katana will cut through marine in full gear, it doesnt have to be super advanced.

A better concept to go down armour wise, is that of multiple layers of ceramic plate, arranged so that they resemble the old styles of armour but actually a highly effective advanced plate armour capable of diffusing energy weapons fire, backed up by a simple kevlar weave under garment for normal wear. The ceramic armour can also be varied to produce stealth and heavy armoured versions. As thier main enemy would be the jaffa, this style of armour would be very effective, not overly advanced (we developed a similar material in S7) but still highly effective and an edge over other races in the galaxy vs the jaffa. As old style samuri armour was layed lacquer plates, it could easily be converted to this style of armour without aesthetic alterations. Hence a blend of old and new that isnt advanced but a good leg up...

[Gormagon]

Ok stop with the sword stuff. Unless we go to lightsabers were not going to get them back in a way that is consistent. But them being there as ceremonial, backup weapons, fine, but dont make them uber advanced for no reason. For the record, any good quality Katana will cut through marine in full gear, it doesnt have to be super advanced.

A better concept to go down armour wise, is that of multiple layers of ceramic plate, arranged so that they resemble the old styles of armour but actually a highly effective advanced plate armour capable of diffusing energy weapons fire, backed up by a simple kevlar weave under garment for normal wear. The ceramic armour can also be varied to produce stealth and heavy armoured versions. As thier main enemy would be the jaffa, this style of armour would be very effective, not overly advanced (we developed a similar material in S7) but still highly effective and an edge over other races in the galaxy vs the jaffa. As old style samuri armour was layed lacquer plates, it could easily be converted to this style of armour without aesthetic alterations. Hence a blend of old and new that isnt advanced but a good leg up...

Meh. They are a combination of ceremonial and practical for close quarters combat. They are not uber for no reason, they are high quality because they should be. The Swords need to be competitive with other advanced melee weapons and to a limited extent ranged weapons, and the Houjin are advanced. But the different ranks of Samurai have different levels of sword, and the foot soldiers only have knives and bayonets. Yeah, a normal Katana will cut through 3 pigs in one swing I believe. And Houjin Samurai are enhanced....but the swords are backup weapons.

Ceramic polymer I know. Was almost immune to staff blasts.

The Houjin use a ceramic polycarbide or polymer if you do not like polycarbide, components in the plates, as well as Fullerene like nano materials. See this article, its not uber we have it right now- http://www.physorg.com/news8947.html Kevlar is ok, but not as good as the much more advanced Fullerene material, such as the Huojin could make. They could make armor so superior to the armor in that article.

And another great thing about it is, its made from one the most abundant materials available. Carbon. Its a semi holy grail.

[thekillman]

i truely see no use for swords. useless for longrange, useless for mid range, useless for short range, useless for Close Quarter Combat, only useful for armlength fights, and at that point you might as well stab them with a knife or STILL shoot them.


we no longer use swords because we no longer need them. if they had any realistic use, we'd use them today. the Conquistadores used them because their guns were so unreliable and it was a transition phase

[Gormagon]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *Swings sword at thekillman well dressed in Houjin Samurai armor*

My brother wont let me get rid of swords anyway. And I already argue with him enough.

Its your opinion I guess, but its part of the uniqueness of their culture and the weapons are still useful in some situations. And it would have to a high quality trinium or other super metal/alloy knife blade, and Tau'ri P-90's, MP-5's, 9mm, e.c.t. would not be very effective at all against a Huojin Samurai armor.

[Crazy Tom]

Umm, first you have to remember that Humanity's likely phased those weapons out in favour of newer, caseless designs with possible energy weapons add-ons, the second is that while the armor may stop penetration, it still has to deal with all of the kinetic energy behind that bullet, trinium and fullerenes or not, a grenade will kill through shock-wave alone. And energy weapons seem to produce quite a shock wave based on how Teal'c demolished that wall in COTG with a staff blast.
So these suits of yours need to be more akin to bomb disposal suits. That makes them bulky.

Food for thought, I'm going back to physics now.