Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

A couple points on the Ori and Aschen:

The Ori vessels have all returned to their home galaxy; Vala actually went back with Tomin, at least temporarily, to help him and the others rebuild. Theoretically, since the Priors are also "good" now, they could still use all their fancy tech, but I see no need to introduce that right now. As far as I can see, the former Ori followers are inaccessible (it's not easy to power the supergate) and relatively isolationist. So almost a non-issue.


Regarding the Aschen ships, we actually discussed this a while ago, and decided that conventional views of the Aschen, especially regarding warfare, didn't exactly match up with the available evidence. The Aschen ships (and especially tactics) are going to be a fair bit different from your standard stuff.

If I ever have time to finish the next chapter of my story, you'll actually get a chance to see what I mean ...

[immhotep]

Ok ok. Another idea so that they can keep their honor, they just would not go back on their word unless the other did first, they would not stab an ally in the back or attack for no reason or slaughter innocents. Those kinds of things.

Thats called bad tactics.

The Ori vessels have all returned to their home galaxy; Vala actually went back with Tomin, at least temporarily, to help him and the others rebuild. Theoretically, since the Priors are also "good" now, they could still use all their fancy tech, but I see no need to introduce that right now. As far as I can see, the former Ori followers are inaccessible (it's not easy to power the supergate) and relatively isolationist. So almost a non-issue.

Well actually its pretty easy to dial a supergate. We did it from the oddy and the asgard did, and we did it from pegasus...but if they are in thier own galaxy fair enough.

Regarding the Aschen ships, we actually discussed this a while ago, and decided that conventional views of the Aschen, especially regarding warfare, didn't exactly match up with the available evidence. The Aschen ships (and especially tactics) are going to be a fair bit different from your standard stuff.

If I ever have time to finish the next chapter of my story, you'll actually get a chance to see what I mean ...

Ill be very interested to see that. And I would like to know what you mean by not matching up to the available evidence, we have exactly the same evidence as you, id like to see your alternatives.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

See the pages surrounding (before and after) this post for some idea of what we discussed.

Now, to be fair, the "conventional" view we're knocking isn't exactly what happened in 2.0, it's actually more views that we'd had earlier in 4.0 and changed our minds on. But, some of those early views that we ended up not liking stemmed from a traditional view of the Aschen that has some roots in 2.0.

(Also: note that the way I am writing the Aschen in my story is based on reflection on the ideas surrounding that post, not necessarily the ideas themselves. I'm not using any of the specific tactics brainstormed there, at least not without some serious tweaking to better fit a more thought-out plan.)


P.S. Just in case I was unclear, when I said "your standard stuff", I was using a generic "you", not referring to you specifically, 'tep!

P.P.S. And fair point about the supergate -- though we did have to make a dialing crystal, if I recall correctly. That might be the sticking point.

[Gormagon]

Well, I just realized that I probably should have not tried to make up a race with honorable values considering my own personal views on warfare and tactics. But, they are still going to be honest.

Hey boys, what about a new class of fighter designed to compliment the Hebi class fighter, a pilot free drone fighter?

And there was something else but I forget now....

[immhotep]

Now, to be fair, the "conventional" view we're knocking isn't exactly what happened in 2.0, it's actually more views that we'd had earlier in 4.0 and changed our minds on. But, some of those early views that we ended up not liking stemmed from a traditional view of the Aschen that has some roots in 2.0.

(Also: note that the way I am writing the Aschen in my story is based on reflection on the ideas surrounding that post, not necessarily the ideas themselves. I'm not using any of the specific tactics brainstormed there, at least not without some serious tweaking to better fit a more thought-out plan.)


P.S. Just in case I was unclear, when I said "your standard stuff", I was using a generic "you", not referring to you specifically, 'tep!

Ill just reply to this first, and then ill give you my insights in to the post you highlighted.
I can understand that your not knocking, and while ill fill you in in details, think you made many of the choices we made when developing the aschen.

I obviously dont take slight in you debating the aschen, they were actually one of the few examples in the fleet history of me, zake and buba working together and agreeing on something collectively that went all the way through a fleet. We each designed one of the main 3 ships, I wrote much of the history, zake the war, buba some interesting twists and then i finished it off with the Adnihlo. Actually in terms of a democratic storyline its the best examples the fleets have! So i wouldnt claim them in light of that.

Now on to business.

So anyway, I've been thinking about the Aschen. I think we've read way too much into them. Having watched 2010 and 2001 again, some interesting points came up.

1. Weapons. The only weapons technology the Aschen ever display is their bio-weapon and their PDL's. Yet, for some unfathomable reason, we've been operating under the assumption that they'll use kinetic weapons and nukes. I no longer think this is tenable.
2. Warfare. I had forgotten that in 2010 they actually mentioned a full out war against the Goa'uld, which apparently the SGC waged along side the Aschen (rather than the Aschen simply killing the Goa'uld covertly like the Trust attempted, which is what I had previously envisioned). It's implied that it was not the alliance, but the war which made O'Neill dislike the Aschen. Why? It must be the way they fought. Again, I think this is a strong argument against conventional (nukes & guns) warfare, which Earth routinely engages in. Back to point 1, the Aschen specifically offer bio-weapons, and I think this is really the only main offensive weapon they have. Not to say they couldn't manufacture other kinds, but that (for their own reasons), they don't. Cf. references to the lack of symbiotes due to the war -- presumably, victims of Aschen bio-warfare. References to SGC personnel fighting in the war suggests that some ground/air element is used as well -- probably for some methods of delivery.
3. Thought-process. Again, I'll reiterate that any Aschen strategy will focus on killing people and preserving infrastructure. They like to take things, not blow them up. This, I think, is the ideology behind their (apparently) exclusively biological approach to warfare.
4. Technology: have, or have-not? Well, they have transporters -- but how advanced? Quote: "the means to cross entire continents in a single step". So, perhaps the range of ring-transporters, but seemingly more limited than Asgard beams. Their computers, on the other hand, seem very advanced. Interesting, considering that O'Neill called them "a planet of accountants". How about shields? Well, we've never seen 'em. Not even when they'd seemingly be useful (i.e., around the gate). So no positive evidence, but I'm leaning towards no, actually...
5. Planets. I assume the Aschen actually have some planets in their coalition that are not native, but are still advanced, i.e. Earth in 2010. Mollem described the Aschen as "a coalition of equals", and I assume that Earth's ambassadors would have been able to check this in the original timeline, so some diversity must exist. I postulate 3 levels of worlds:
1) Original Members. This would be Aschae and perhaps 3 or 4 other worlds (important point: these are not "Aschen", i.e., natives of Aschae: they're other Confederation members) that founded the Confederation.
2) New Inductees. This would be worlds like Earth in 2010: relatively advanced, in name "full partners", but really being slowly betrayed by the originals.
3) Industry Worlds. This would be worlds like Volia; completely subdued, but happy members of the Confederation who know no better.

1/2 I agree with this, and our primary weapons for the aschen were bio weapons, both in terms of thier ground warfare and space combat. I would not expect them to have missiles or nukes in a conventional fashion. Indeed one of the alternatives we gave them and became more mainstream were Ion weapons. There was a technological reason too as well as a tech base reason. In the show Ion weapons were seen to be based on phasing past shields and impacting the hull, with most of the kinetic energy hitting the hull rather than shields. This is based upon the tollan who in the fleets were at various points members of the confederation and distant cousins of the Aschen through Thatus. They shared a similar tech base, and so we reasoned that the Aschen got their Ion weapons from the Tollan, and modified them later on when the Tauri clicked and modified their shields to be resistant to the phase nature of the Aschen. We then tried our own back and in the end neither were effective but by that point, all either could do is up the kinetic yeilds and smash the shields down (most because retrofitting and entire fleet would put both sides out of action for decades). Also the other reason is because the Aschen need shields down to launch thier biodrones (NOT to be confused with the later models) and capture our ships. In the early days of the war, our shields went down really fast as they just hit our emitors and then sent in bio weapons.
These are similar tactics to what the Aschen use in planetary warfare, Ion cannon advanced infrastructure (with low kinetic by high EMP damage) take our air support with UCAV's and then use their highly selective biodrones to mop up the rest. I can imagine these being highly effective tactics against the Jaffa especially, and in 2.0 the jaffa lost alot of territory to the Aschen because they had no defence against them. And human worlds without major defences wouldnt be able to turn down the kinds of offers the aschen made them in advanced of an attack.

3. The aschen are more complicated than that. In many ways they were looking for a cold war, and ideological war for control over who governs the future of our species galaxy wide. They could offer huge advances in every field and protection from virtually any enemy, including the biggest bad that was coming (most were not aware of it obviously). They were the very cool new guys on the block, just like we had been, it was only our former reputation and allies which were against the Aschen. We had to pull in some big favours and play big hands to keep the balance. All the random planets which would usually side with Earth, were in the confederation. Only a few human worlds really loved us and could actually be protected by us realistically. The Tollan and Hebdridans were probley the only other human races in the galaxy that could compete with the aschen and ourselves. The dynamic with the aschen wasnt open war, it was competing perspectives. The aschen essentially wanted open and advanced galactic federalism, while Earth supported independant development with assistance and free trade. In many ways the war was based mostly on the economics of the galaxy we set forward in 2.0. And about two human superpowers rising to dominate, legitimately two populations of thier species. Unlike the cold war, in the fleets it was hot.

4.

As I said before I think their technology base was between the Tollan and the Asgard, in that degree i think your about right. I think they would have shields though, i just cant imagine they wouldnt, its pretty absurd given how advanced they were . And we did see shields, around the bio weapon launched from the harvester for example. We always used the rule of thumb of about 3/4 of the power of the Asgard as being about right. They have similar technology, weapons, we have them only have intersteller hyperdrives. I think if the Asgard were a space faring race, their gate based counterpart would have been the aschen. The PPT and the AC work on at least similar basic principles.

5.
i think you have that about right. We had Helena as the leader of the outer confederation or something similar, cant remember the exact term. But essentially the bulk of the confederation are planets which the aschen have ruled for only a short time or forced in recently. By short this could be hundreds of years given the aschen lifespace. Then there were a core group of planets, a coalition of races that we never really explored in great depth and that might be another angle to play IMO. And then we have the core system of the aschen about 6 planets which were the ones destroyed by the OHH battle to overthrow Talos.

We did say that at various points the Tollan were part of this coalition, in addition to other Thatian races but the tollan eventually left about 150 years ago, we explained this as the aschen giving their power source to another race ( the reason the tollans didnt give us technology) and them having a massive fallout about it. so that tied them both in together really tightly and showed us another side of the tollan without bringing them back full time. I think they are races so close in terms of styles and technologies that to not link them again in some way would be a shame.

This is a pretty radical shift in our thinking that I'm proposing here: let me be clear. I'm saying we should not use nukes & guns for the Aschen. PDL/laser-thingies and bio-weapons should be standard, with maybe some other stuff. Thoughts?

I think in general this is not as radical an overhaul as I was expecting and think you have stayed as true as we did with a few differences, but again, in terms of the ship designs, I can still make the case of them being equally applicable to the Aschen you are putting forward as they were for the one used in 2.0.

Tep

[Crazy Tom]

Well, you know me, I like new stuff, if for no reason than it's new stuff to digest.

At the same time... I think that by their nature, they'll adapt a lot of stuff we've seen the other galactic powers use if they see those things as useful. Aside from that, there really isn't any data to argue, so it's up to you.

[Gormagon]

The Tollan and Hebdridans were probley the only other human races in the galaxy that could compete with the aschen and ourselves.

So adding the Houjin would not be so bad? They can be some cool new peeps on the block.

Were the Dendredans/Urgo's people/Tobins Thatus descended races?

I do not think Martins people were Thatus descended. Not exactly sure why. They just did not strike me as Roman/Greek or something.

Also, since a diamond planet was just discovered would diamond tipped rail gun/coil gun projectiles be possible? And what about missiles? Although Fullerene materials and trinium are harder/stronger then diamond I believe.

[blackluster]

What level of influence are the Houjin meant to have?

[Gormagon]

What level of influence are the Houjin meant to have?

Not sure yet. Although what do you mean by influence? Economic? Political? Religious? Military?

[blackluster]

Not sure yet. Although what do you mean by influence? Economic? Political? Religious? Military?

Any. I'm just curious what you intend to do with them, or what you want them to achieve.

[Gormagon]

Well, I did have a long term plan for connecting them to the Furlings. Having it that it was the Furlings that brought them to Arata Seken well over a thousand years ago, and that at some point in time the Houjin launch an expedition to find them so that we could finally meet them EVENTUALLY. It could have been in interesting twist. I also wanted to use the Furlings because the Asgard and Ancients have been used to much already, and the Nox would not have done it. But Imhotep did not like the idea.

But other then that, they can help us fight various enemies. The LA, Aschen, Tka, Shrin'yar. Economically they would have great influence. Probably militarily as well.

I want them to achieve GREATNESS!!. Since my main plot was shut down I am rethinking things.

[blackluster]

Well, I guess the challenge is having to scale back the Houjin involvement. From what I can tell, the races developed so far have already pinned down every major military and political engagement that the galaxy will ever see.

The Houjin are unlikely to be able to out tech Earth, because canon supports development from the Asgard and the Ancients over the Furlings. The Houjin are also unlikely to be able to have any significant influence on the LA since the space they occupy is too large.

At best the Houjin might be a single world with a handful of ships. Thematically they seem to have a few similarities to the race Awinita developed, though she has already pinned down the advanced combat training angle in integrating them with Earth's agenda.

[thekillman]

i haven't read the entire Aschen debate. given my own influence in the LA design, i think i'll just leave Mcoy to make the Aschen more "his". i can not think of another way to make them unique in that perspective. he knows how i think about it and i think that suffices. they're not that radical a change, but i'd like to keep the Show as the "status quo" and not per se the fleets. the former fleets are a great "manual" of how it has to be done and how not. bland copying should be discouraged, even porting. of course we shouldn't be blind to what has been done before, there are some real gems in there. i think Tep is a very valuable person because of his knowledge and feel of what can and can not work.

I think that by their nature, they'll adapt a lot of stuff we've seen the other galactic powers use if they see those things as useful

true. the Aschen won't go into war unprepared. i am not sure what weapon is better for them. Particle would be more novel, but Ion would, by my extrapolation, give them a better and more accurate (to their way of thinking) weapon.


it's remarkable that my theory is actually supported by (and supports) Tep's vision of the Aschen and how their Ion Cannons were quick to adapt and more powerful against shields. it's what my theory suggests they would do, my own extrapolation of the weapons technology suggests they would do, and remarkably, what you said they would do.


so i definitely think that it's spot on for Ion Cannons

[immhotep]

So adding the Houjin would not be so bad? They can be some cool new peeps on the block.

Were the Dendredans/Urgo's people/Tobins Thatus descended races?

I do not think Martins people were Thatus descended. Not exactly sure why. They just did not strike me as Roman/Greek or something.

Also, since a diamond planet was just discovered would diamond tipped rail gun/coil gun projectiles be possible? And what about missiles? Although Fullerene materials and trinium are harder/stronger then diamond I believe.

The races we counted as Thatian were, the bedrosians, Hebridans, the Tollan, the Aschen, the spartans, the Tagreans, the Talthans, Urgos people, the Eurondans, the Vyans and the Velonans, the orbanians and the Tegalans. originally there were 10 groups with some of them splitting up. Basically the Thatus storyline was an insert in to the stargate mtythology that allowed us to explain certain advanced human races which seemed to unrelated to the gouald. We explained this as a roman general who sent expeditions through the gate after the rebellion that trapped these races offworld. Thus they did not suffer the dark ages and so were able to progress 600 years or so ahead of earth, based on the explaination which the tollan gave to us, and seemed similar to others given in the show. We just expanded and put them under an umbrella storyline historically.

the former fleets are a great "manual" of how it has to be done and how not. bland copying should be discouraged, even porting. of course we shouldn't be blind to what has been done before, there are some real gems in there. i think Tep is a very valuable person because of his knowledge and feel of what can and can not work.

Thanks, thats how i feel my role is at the moment to just give a bit of context to some of the older ideas and to advise of how the new ones might pan out and help spin and flesh out new ideas. the fleets did alot and with a reboot there are always going to be grey areas where there could be valid recycles. I think on the grounds of copying and porting bits from the old fleets, I dont see there being major problems with this in the sense that the the 2.0 universe especially is still a relavent version of what the fleet universe and indeed the gate unvierse could end up like. Indeed I would like to say that 4.0 is more like 1.5, in that its resetting to a period concurrent with the universe we created in 1.0. So the 2.0 universe may still well exist out there and be part of the mythologies.

If carter were saying this it would be something along the lines of:
"the two fleet universes exist within a larger mutliverse based on the multiple possible realities that could have been generated by the ending of the Stargate franchise. Each of these realities may cross paths at various points along the journey creating a bleed through of storylines and characters without creating paradoxes."

true. the Aschen won't go into war unprepared. i am not sure what weapon is better for them. Particle would be more novel, but Ion would, by my extrapolation, give them a better and more accurate (to their way of thinking) weapon.

it's remarkable that my theory is actually supported by (and supports) Tep's vision of the Aschen and how their Ion Cannons were quick to adapt and more powerful against shields. it's what my theory suggests they would do, my own extrapolation of the weapons technology suggests they would do, and remarkably, what you said they would do.

so i definitely think that it's spot on for Ion Cannons

Well Im glad that has worked out that way, you should have been around for the Ion wars with that theory. I have seen it and really think its a good one. The one about the Sg trinity of elements being codependant in some way and that all advanced technology and weaponry is based on an extrapolation of these properties and how they work against each other. I think for example Ion weapons work agaisnt the goauld so well because its a Trinium based weapon vs a naquadah based shield. Its possible drones use neutronium and bypasses them both in lilne with my theory about three levels of tech each outdoing the one before. The energy field being manipulated is one of those things we can guess on but its certinly a good theory.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

'tep, have you read 'killman's Kiron-theory of Stargate physics? It's pretty similar to what you're talking about, and I think the "premier" theory currently set forward. I'm certainly making use of it.