Gateworld Virtual Fleet 4.0 - Discussion thread

[immhotep]

We dont know that is how the goauld view war, we know they play war games and they believe they are above conventional human methods. But they are mortal and so have the same survival instincts and those which drive human instincts for war,, with many of the same rules, arguably part of the blending process. Using a child as host is a horrible crime to the goauld, they could steal all the knowledge of a harscis and move to an adult, i think there history of using children shows they dont care. But anubis being host to Ra's harscis child would be very interesting, not the child part, i think harsci' are very special for goauld so much so banishment would be automatic, the anubis we fight would be both goauld, pure and harcis with perhaps some very advanced human abilties, if he could create a more powerful host or ascend.

As to the whole asgard replacing Dakara, i dont like it, i would prefer that we leave the replicators as is and not be able to adapt, have the ARG's, they work, let the asgard deal with them with a new gun while we sort out the goauld.

[thekillman]

nonononono, not replacing Dakara. we don't need a dakara device to kill the replicators. the asgard are capable enough. i'd like to have the asgard kick some serious goauld ass after that, creating the end of anubis, and then they leave and essentially hand over power of the galaxy to us.

the anubis we fight would be both goauld, pure and harcis with perhaps some very advanced human abilties, if he could create a more powerful host or ascend.

nah, i liked the power through technology concept. how about the goauld equivalent of the Halen suit? two hand devices, advanced zat-proof, staff-resistant armor, an exoskeleton essentially, a kind of kull armor just for him. has healing technology, a cloak hand device with plasma bolt ability and telepathy, and a shield hand device on the other hand, with kinetic blast ability and torture ability.


the asgard wouldn't wipe out the goauld, since that would be xenocide and leave a way too big powervacuum, but just send 6 fully up-to-date O'neills over.


as to technology: we know from Exodus that the tok'ra suffered from having almost no ships. i think that giving them a ha'tak with an alkesh or two and some tel'tak ( among the stuff we accumulate over time) would have them give us quite some nice tech and blueprints. also, i'd like the tech we initially find on the 5 planets (if we go by my idea) to be several thousand year old goauld tech, allowing easier introduction to shield tech etc. after we go blow up / shoot ra, we get some of the newer stuff. again, i'd love to see us costumize our own ships.

[lord groovy]

we have a massive internet network. of course we could somehow channel the matter stream.

Massive enough to deal with that insane amount of data everytime someone wants to use the rings? I suppose you want first to build a massive crystal-based supercomputer and limit the travels only to SG personnrl, right?

furthermore: i think the asgard could supplant Dakara, so to speak. Dakara is an unnessecary weapon introduced to kill the MWR's, while all that's needed is a functioning ARG in possession of the asgard. in fact, if they hadn't invoked countermeasures for the ARG, it might have worked from the beginnning.

Since the Asgard are pretty good with inventing ubertech device and like to frequently upgrade them, I think we should leave them with the initial ARG and they'd probably make it more efficient each time the Reps gets more resilient. But if we can keep their zerg rush at the end of s8, that would be cool. I liked the fact that only a far superior enemy could bring down the whole might of the System Lords (+Anubis).

you know how to do the MOST unspeakable crimes of anubis?

-pick and have sex with a goauld
-abduct the Harsesis child, possess it as a goauld, and use it for evil. since the goauld see warfare as a game with rules, breaking those is bad (even Apophis never did it untill he was really powerful) and then using the child as host is the worst crime imaginable

A more simple way, look at the Mongol Empire. Those guy could have taken out the world and they weren't that keen on ethics of war and human rights to live happily ever after. They did unspeakable crimes even for us humans.

About Anubis let's say that he was an Harcesis and was quite psychologically troubled by his nature (damn that genetic memory!). He tried to find solutions by experimenting on humans and his fellow Goa'uld friends found that it was fine to let him continue. At some point he just wasn't satisfied anymore by that and tried to do the same on Goa'ulds. He may have even raided worlds full with snakes to get some valuable subjects. And the System Lords finally understood that something was seriously wrong with him.

They form an alliance under Ra and hunted him down wherver he could go. They practically destroyed anyhting that Anubis ever touched and finally got to him... or so they thought. Those that weren't captured by Anubis were killed by the war. We always wonder why the galaxy wasn't full with human hosts, it's probably because Anubis saw to it that there won't ever be enough Goa'uld left to infect every last world. Like the Wraith did to the Lantians in Pegasus.

The Goa'uld took then 3 important decisions :

- Anubis was a harcesis then harcesis should be forbidden
- all the Goa'ulds would submit to a central authority : the System Lords
- the System Lords would make sure to monitor the remaining population and protect their queens

(the last one is to explain why Ra never killed Egeria, Hathor or Isis but just locked them up.)

And Anubis stood hidden in some corner of the galaxy waiting for his revenge. He kept using the sarcophagus to remain young (and alive) for those 3000 years. People that thought he was a little messed up before would be impressed by his homework. He's gotten better (or worse).

Spoiler:

Hail Lord Han-ubis Lecter !

[thekillman]

Massive enough to deal with that insane amount of data everytime someone wants to use the rings? I suppose you want first to build a massive crystal-based supercomputer and limit the travels only to SG personnrl, right?

not via the internet. but what i mean is, we can channel the matter streams and create a kind of internet for rings.

Since the Asgard are pretty good with inventing ubertech device and like to frequently upgrade them, I think we should leave them with the initial ARG and they'd probably make it more efficient each time the Reps gets more resilient. But if we can keep their zerg rush at the end of s8, that would be cool. I liked the fact that only a far superior enemy could bring down the whole might of the System Lords (+Anubis).

well it seems energy weapons based upon some frequency are indeed the asgard's cup of tea. yes i think the Zerg rush, eh, Replicator Rush should be somewhat later. the asgard then stop them, help shatter the goauld and leave then, to rebuild and recreate their former empire.

i'd like anubis to have taken a harcesis as a host, not being one

[lord groovy]

not via the internet. but what i mean is, we can channel the matter streams and create a kind of internet for rings.

I'm fine with that.
Should it be government property or a private network owned by a company? I'd like to keep the fact that the SG program had connections with many private companies and labs. That often led to really boring and predictable stories but well we can do much better.

i'd like anubis to have taken a harcesis as a host, not being one

That would explain why Anubis was banned but not why the harcesis were forbidden. After all, he didn't do anything except attracting the attention of a particularly sick Goa'uld.

And at least with them, the genderless goa'ulds no longer depend on queens for reproduction. That could be a reason too for their interdiction. If the queens had that much power initially.

Otherwise, for it to make sense, you need a harcesis that did unspeakable crimes. At best it could be someone else that rebelled against the System Lords, lost and finally joined with Anubis. He then cause so much problems that the snakes decided that mixed-blood was a bad idea. But I'm not that convinced.

[thekillman]

except that a harcesis is essentially a superhuman. not goauld. it's like how we are iffy with cloning and such. they just don't like it.

[Crazy Tom]

we have a massive internet network. of course we could somehow channel the matter stream.

Not enough bandwidth for matter streams, besides, those streams seem to be more pf a physical phenomenon, maybe transmited through subspace or something.

anubis being half-ascended IS a big deal. he's immortal and impervious to all but ascended. he survived a dozen drones to his head, the subsequent massive explosion of his mothership, space, humans, extreme colds, and what not? i'd like him to be mortal.

So we can have him be a re-occurring villain. We can imprison him, or he could escape, but simply be unable to raise an empire with us on the lookout for him.

furthermore: i think the asgard could supplant Dakara, so to speak. Dakara is an unnessecary weapon introduced to kill the MWR's, while all that's needed is a functioning ARG in possession of the asgard. in fact, if they hadn't invoked countermeasures for the ARG, it might have worked from the beginnning.

Are you suggesting an Asgard built ARG combined with the Gate Network pulse?

[Crazy Tom]

nonononono, not replacing Dakara. we don't need a dakara device to kill the replicators. the asgard are capable enough. i'd like to have the asgard kick some serious goauld ass after that, creating the end of anubis, and then they leave and essentially hand over power of the galaxy to us.

They do't trust us that much.

No, Earth should definitely have somebody watching it's actions. Humanity is far too young for that sport of responsibility.

as to technology: we know from Exodus that the tok'ra suffered from having almost no ships. i think that giving them a ha'tak with an alkesh or two and some tel'tak ( among the stuff we accumulate over time) would have them give us quite some nice tech and blueprints. also, i'd like the tech we initially find on the 5 planets (if we go by my idea) to be several thousand year old goauld tech, allowing easier introduction to shield tech etc. after we go blow up / shoot ra, we get some of the newer stuff. again, i'd love to see us costumize our own ships.

Precisely, even if they really don't like us having their tech, we can push them a bit with the fact that we can provide transportation to their bases, this owuld also force them to get off their arses and get some ships of their own.

[Crazy Tom]

I'm fine with that.
Should it be government property or a private network owned by a company? I'd like to keep the fact that the SG program had connections with many private companies and labs. That often led to really boring and predictable stories but well we can do much better.

It would have to be government owned. Putting it into private hands would collapse the economy overnight as airplanes, cars, and ships became obsolete.
Actually, we should still have the economy collapse, something along the lines of despite the government's best efforts to limit alien tehcnology, the current economic order could simply not be sustained with the introduction of off world technology, leading to a economic meltdown, and a huge wave of emigrants to the colonies where t4here were no restrictions of advanced tech.

edit:

I was thinking that we should think about some game-changing technologies for Earth to exploit, seeing as we've always had a hing for thinking outside the box.

Say for example, inertial dampeners on projectiles, depending on whether they simply balance out the acceleration of a ship or actually shield it form gravity, they let us "cheat" conservation of energy, since the gun would be firing a projectile that masses significantly less, it can fire it faster for the same amount of energy.

Or RKKS, say suing cloaked ships to put some iron boulders on a collision course with orbiting ships or planetary installations.

[thekillman]

actually tom, the asgard would help us shatter goauld power. not enough to truely defeat them. that gives us and our allies the space needed to grow. and the powervacuum can be filled in a natural way

[locutes]

an it would make the milky way less of a pain in the back side, for the Goa'uld are no longer supreme, but we are not powerfull enough to become a threat to them, but we can at least partially keep the Protected Planets Treaty in force.

[lord groovy]

Well rather than a single all-powerful empire you will have a multitude of small fragmented factions warring against each other (Minor Goa'uld vs FJN vs Lucian Alliance vs Earth).

I think that if you live on one of the big populous homeworld of those factions you will have quite a pleasant life while those that are in the backwaters planets will spend their time making alliances with the top dog of the neigbourhood.

And let's face it, if some coalition decide to attack every planet listed on the Protected Planets Treaty, Earth won't have the capability to defend them. And if the Asgards comes at their rescue every time and that from a far away galaxy, whenever there is a problem, the other factions will soon wonder if they are any better than the System Lords.

This is why I think that once the Goa'ulds are defeated, the Treaty should be terminated. As Freyr or some other Asgard pointed it out (in the episode with the red sun), it was meant to protect those planet only against the might of the System Lords. No more System Lords = no more Treaty.

[Crazy Tom]

Actually, Earth is the most vulnerable becuase it's populous and heavily industrialized. A dozen RKV strikes and millions die. A very Lucian Alliance thing to do.

[thekillman]

which is why my idea works so nice on a dozen fronts. we'd have properly explored planets, all nearby, for population expansion.


besides, the asgard can't possibly think they have to guide us all the way. the 3.0 fleet shows how that turns out. the galaxy becomes dependent on us, while we have a powerbase we can not sustain.

in stead, i think the only way to keep the galaxy safe is for earth to power up it's allies. the FJN is important due to numbers. the tok'ra have technology and could use it's subspace links and spies to keep an eye on the major developments. and the LA would be a mashup of those things: tok'ra, minor goauld, jaffa, alien humans, possibly earth humans etc all in one faction, united by a thirst for power.

the LA merely needs to redo anubis' plan, except this time with dozens of naquahdah asteroids, and even closer to earth. in fact, there are asteroids close to earth, and our ability to detect those things is overrated. there is a massive chance that we miss an asteroid and it hits our planet, and we wouldn't know it before it's too late. well, the LA could use a tel'tak or al'kesh to tow an asteroid and smash it on earth.


in fact, that would be a nice way to reveal the gate.

[locutes]

an armageddon to reveal the gate has always been what I liked. I can see the LA sending a meteor our way, it is a great way to kill us.

It would also force allot of things to happen. I think though that after revealing the gate the most powerful nations on Earth not yet in the IOA would demand access. I have also always seen it as the most oppertune moment for the EU to gain in strength. I can see the European Union turning into a confederacy, not a Federation like the USA, but a confederacy yea.



Another note on the vessels in use by the Goa'uld, I think ships like Apophis/Sokar his flagship should be used by certain Goa'ulds. Also should innovation not be something every System Lord wants, just to get more power among his fellow System Lords? I can see Apophis or Sokar or Anubis or Ba'al coming up with a new way of killing something or someone. Obviously arrogance should still have the overtone but some innovation should take place.
I can also see Apophis going like, hmm, if I mount a few more turrets on my Al'kesh I have a small advantage which no other Goa'uld has.

Spoiler:

If I look at this ship, I cannot help it but to get the feeling that, IF you remove or scale down that pyramid and mount a few more staff cannon turrets you'd have a better ship in fighting. These Alkesh as they are now only have a few weapons, they can even be taken down by a Death Glider because of a limited firing arc and limited weapons. Even if it is meant to be a bomber it's just crap for it cannot defend against enemy fighters. A few more weapons would turn it into a multi purpose ship, one of great use to us AND all other factions. We could also use Al'kesh as cargo vessels like the Kassa Trains of the LA

Spoiler:

Also Ha'tak have got such limited weapons, these ships too are just weapons of terror not of warfare, no wonder a puny little ship like the Prometheus can defend its self for quite a while. There are just nowhere near enough weapons or the do not fire the weapons they have enough. Another thing about these ships, in the series we sometimes see only one or three and those are considered a large fleet, yet at other moments we see whole fleets of 100s of them and then I start thinking, WTF!

Then we have the so called Needle Glider, why do the Goa'uld not use those? Those are rather usefull it seems to me. After all, those things can go throe the gate and so you can send large fighter units from place to place if needed. The Tau'ri should make their own version of it.

Then we have the Space stations, Orbital fortresses, why has only one ever been seen? Are those not usefull? I'd think they are.

Spoiler:

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