Why dont some(or alot) of people like Sam to be...

[Elwe Singollo]

I totally agree, i want to see some team interaction in season 8, i thought we were missing that in season 7. I hope they write Sam's character differenly this year, although i am one of those few people who still loved Season 7

[epiphany]

"Ship" is not causing people's judgement to be clouded to who Sam Carter really is. Ship is now part of who she really is, it is how she is in large part being defined. So-called "ship" changes who she is. It's there in canon as of Grace, which also affects backstory.

She isn't the same caring person she always was. Now she cares first and formeost and apparently really only for Jack because he is ever upper most in her mind.

Daniel's kidnapped? She looks put out that Jack's going(love that litttle downturned eyes thing on her terse answer of "good"). That scene was meant to be shippy, it was played that way, it's right in the dvd commentary. Concern about Daniel isn't a part of the equation in that picture, he's just the object that is keeping Sam and Jack apart. Jack's been ordered to go(in effect, because if he doesn't then no one is going to rescue Daniel and Dr. Lee and that would truly make him look too cold and callous to be explained away).

Janet's dead? Cassie's a "tough kid who'll survive" the loss of her second mother but Sam, grown up, military officer needs to go weep on the shoulder of her commanding officer(the same commanding officer she's been mooning over and getting all schoolgirly in her answers to Emmet's questioning only a little earlier). She's standing there practically asking for it, eyes all wet and looking up, biting lips--all screaming "Oh please hug me, I'm so needy"(and before anyone brings up Daniel in Needs in the storeroom, Daniel just totally broke down uncontrollably, he didn't seem to be looking for it, it was a very different situation--Sam was in situation where she could have excused herself).

Jack's got the ancient's repository downloaded into his brain? Daniel and Teal'c walk in because they too want to spend time with their teammate and friend and Sam looks annoyed they've interrupted her little tete a tete with Jack, instead of being glad that they are all there together to share this time with him. They are interruptors and intruders, confirmed in her later attempt to broach the subject of her unprofessional feelings(and right after she's been given command of the team).

What you describe between the guys and in the early years with Sam was behavior equal among teammates. Entirely different from what we are told exists between Sam and her Commanding Officer.

You mention the lives she's saved--so have all of SG-1. Being good in her area of expertise, which is scientific, does NOT mean she is worthy of being leader of SG-1. She has not shown any kind of real leadership ability. She has shown she's good at following orders. Lots of soldiers are good at following orders and it's important but it doesn't mean she's a leader, except perhaps of a scientific team which would deal with her area of expertise.

[epiphany]

<<<Try reading Tolkien's 'On fairy tales' It explains author sub-creation far better than I ever could.>>>

Yes, Magnolia absolutely. "On Fairie Stories" is an amazing, amazing essay by Tolkien. Personally I think every one of the writers, directors and producers on Stargate ought to be made to read it, until they can repeat it by heart! Actually it mightn't be a bad idea for the actors to read it as well.

[David85]

A lot is two words.

[Elwe Singollo]

David85 is five syllables

[KatG]

I really, really like this post Kat, so I'm leaving the whole thing quoted. I think I'm one of the few non-shippers who liked Grace a lot and it's for many of the reasons you articulated so well. Grace (IMO) was the visual depiction of Sam having a case of the midnight heebie-jeebies, as I like to call them.

Thanks Kes. Midnight heebie-jeebie is a perfect phrase for what Sam was experiencing.

I welcomed Sam's decision to move on and see if she can have a life outside the SGC with Pete. But frankly articles that spend one paragraph talking about Sam's promotion and three paragraphs talking about Sam's love life and how Sam thinks Pete is a great guy, although Jack is more fantastic (but sadly unavailable), don't inspire confidence that Pete was intended as anything more than a plot device to delay the resolution of the S/J ship.

I'm actually probably one of the few shippers who liked Chimera. I like seeing Sam experiencing life, even if she makes some mistakes in the process. Let's face it, life is messy. It's never just cut and dried. To me it makes Sam more realistic, instead of Super Sam.

Pete probably is a plot device as far as the writers are concerned. And AT is probably astute enough to realize that. But I don't think that Sam the character necessarily sees him as someone to tide her over until she can have Jack. I think she's honestly trying to get on with her life. Just because the feelings for Jack keep getting in the way, doesn't mean that she sincerely isn't making an attempt. And who knows, if the chemistry between Pete and Sam seems to explode in S8, Pete may just stick around for the long run.
Whatever happens, as long as its a good story and it's believable to me, I'll keep watching.

As for Sam in command, I don't necessarily think that how she's handles her personal life, is telling of how she will handle command. Let's face it, Jack's past personal life wasn't exactly what most would consider idealic. He had a lot going on, but he managed to command just fine.

I know that for myself, my personal life and emotions can be a total wreck, but I'm perfectly capable of handling my job responsibilities in spite of it. You just compartmentalize it, and get on with what you have to do.

[Elwe Singollo]

I'm one of the few who liked Chimera I liked the episode because it showed Sam in a different way, although i didn't like it 100 percent, i still loved the idea of the episode, and in plus, Sarah is back

[the dancer of spaz]

Hola! Alright... someone said before that the quotes probably aren't necessary, but I need them to keep my mind straight. If I didn't have any references, I'd be an even bigger babbling idiot than I already am.

Not broken regs? Not put anyone in danger? I think THAT is also a matter for discussion. One that I've had elsewhere and don't intend to have again because I'm frankly getting bored with going over the old ground over and over again.

Ummm... OK... Sorry for asking.

Clearly you see one thing, and I see another. I HAVE seen behaviour that I would consider unprofessional in the last two years, and most of it has come from Sam, and has been a result of her emotions. If she cannot suppress her emotions enough to make objective tactical decisions, she does not belong in charge of a unit which habitually goes into dangerous situations. She has not proved to MY satisfaction that she can do that - I hope she will, in the next year.

I guess responding to this statement would be considered "going over the old ground over and over again," eh? Then again, I think we've been doing that for several posts, so... whateva.

But I also hope that in doing so the share of screen time that she gets doesn't increase any further with the result that the other two are marginalised even further than they have been this year.

Absolutely. I agree. The show is first and foremost about the team. No arguments from me.

You're right. It means nothing. It means less than nothing, to me. Because at the time that episode [Paradise Lost] was originally shown, that was exactly the way I saw it. The last time I saw it, the message that came across was entirely different. Season seven has wrecked for me what came before.

How can an ep that was shown nearly a year before season 7.5 have its entire meaning changed because of the current/new eps? They surely didn't know that they were going to go all shippy for season seven during production of season six. Does that mean that the supposed "better team comraderie" that was existent in seasons 1 through 3 is changed, too?

Oh that this was possible. It WAS possible, in the fourth and fifth, and even in the sixth seasons, to have this attitude and peacefully ignore all the not-so subtle hints that were being dropped. I was perfectly happy doing this. But the ship has been so overt, so clumsy, so obvious, in this last season that I can't avoid it any more. It sets my teeth on edge. It's a big purple elephant sitting in the room and it won't go away no matter how much I want it to. And it's become obvious, utterly obvious, that the program makers want me to see it. And I hate it. I don't have words for how much I hate what it's done for the show I loved.

Haha... why don't you tell us how you really feel?
Anywho, that's one of those subjective statements, where I can't say that you're wrong, but I have a hard time even agreeing because you're basically saying that all of those fans who LOVE the ship don't matter. Maybe not. Maybe you're not saying that but something different, however that's what I'm getting from your statement - which is OK, in respect to everyone's varying opinions... I just think it's a bit harsh. Your condemning the very thing that keeps a lot of fans coming every week.

If shippers were doing the same thing, I think it'd be a bit different, but they aren't. They're actually LIKING ship, instead of condemning ship. And when they're disappointed, it's because ship hasn't happened, not because it has. Most shippers aren't condemning the relationship between the team as a whole - and that relationship should never and could never truly be threatened anyway, IMO.

"Ship" is not causing people's judgement to be clouded to who Sam Carter really is. Ship is now part of who she really is, it is how she is in large part being defined. So-called "ship" changes who she is. It's there in canon as of Grace, which also affects backstory.

She isn't the same caring person she always was. Now she cares first and formeost and apparently really only for Jack because he is ever upper most in her mind.

I don't see how she's changed, so I suppose this statement doesn't really apply to me. However, I'll say again that there has always been a canonly-created strong relationship between all of the guys, and that is not a problem, nor will it ever be a problem. It's all about the gender.

Also, whether or not Sam's still a caring person is subject to opinion. She and Teal'c have become WAY closer over this past year, whether you look at "PL" of S6 or "Space Race" of this season. I don't remember much meaningful interaction between those two in the past, and now it's grown. I suppose that means that Jack should be threatened? Or maybe that means that Sam might ditch Jack AND Pete for Teal'c... you know... because they're so close now.

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! This is a point-by-point part of the post. Just thought I'd be kind...

Daniel's kidnapped? She looks put out that Jack's going(love that litttle downturned eyes thing on her terse answer of "good"). That scene was meant to be shippy, it was played that way, it's right in the dvd commentary. Concern about Daniel isn't a part of the equation in that picture, he's just the object that is keeping Sam and Jack apart. Jack's been ordered to go(in effect, because if he doesn't then no one is going to rescue Daniel and Dr. Lee and that would truly make him look too cold and callous to be explained away).

Daniel's kidnapped? Sam looks apprehensive and pensive about the upcoming mission. It could be their last, and she might never see Daniel again. She looks even more apprehensive considering Jack is going to find him alone. Yes, she and Teal'c will be the only portion of SG-1 going, but at least they'll have Jacob and Bra'tac. Daniel and Jack could be stranded in South America with no back up. The look when she said "good?" That was worried; not terse. OK, so the scene was meant to be shippy. Does Sam suddenly forget about Daniel - the man, the brother-like figure, she's known for nearly eight years of her life? No. Plus, Jack isn't exactly FORCED to go find Daniel. He probably trusts Teal'c and Sam & Co. to get the job done without him, while giving him a chance to use his retired-Special Ops skills.

Janet's dead? Cassie's a "tough kid who'll survive" the loss of her second mother but Sam, grown up, military officer needs to go weep on the shoulder of her commanding officer(the same commanding officer she's been mooning over and getting all schoolgirly in her answers to Emmet's questioning only a little earlier). She's standing there practically asking for it, eyes all wet and looking up, biting lips--all screaming "Oh please hug me, I'm so needy"(and before anyone brings up Daniel in Needs in the storeroom, Daniel just totally broke down uncontrollably, he didn't seem to be looking for it, it was a very different situation--Sam was in situation where she could have excused herself).

Janet's dead? Well, it prompts Sam to tears, but she doesn't go to Jack until HOURS after he's been admitted/checked out/left unconscious. In fact, they do this whole huggy-thing ONCE the entire time, nearly two-thirds of the way through the ep. That means that both Sam and Jack had other priorities besides even seeing each other - because, God forbid, one team member check on another. After that, we never see them together in that capacity, if at all, again. Yes, Sam is vulnerable. It's her best friend. Would it be any better, if she had thrown herself into Jack's arms? Again, she was apprehensive, and almost stayed back and away. It's awkward between these two, always has been. If Daniel hadn't been grieving in his own way (which I guess is still part of the Descension Process), she probably would have done it with him as well.

Teal'c came soon after, and in a much more intimate setting, if you ask me. I don't see any ship between them, but I do see a friendship which is getting way better. Does that mean that Cassie has been forgotten? No. They didn't even show the kid at the memorial service. How do we know she's even in town, in the country? She would have clearance, too, if she were. It's just one of those things where the writers felt it was unnecessary to have her daughter there to be seen. I don't agree with it, but it's not the characters' faults, by any means.

Also, I don't understand your Need references. Sorry.

Jack's got the ancient's repository downloaded into his brain? Daniel and Teal'c walk in because they too want to spend time with their teammate and friend and Sam looks annoyed they've interrupted her little tete a tete with Jack, instead of being glad that they are all there together to share this time with him. They are interruptors and intruders, confirmed in her later attempt to broach the subject of her unprofessional feelings(and right after she's been given command of the team).

Jack's got the ancient's repository downloaded into his brain? Both Sam and Daniel have identical reasons for stopping over to his house. Coincidence? I think not. Sam looks annoyed, yes, because both she and Daniel seem to have bad timing, and because she's seemingly incapable of articulating her feelings (whatever they are). If I ever saw Sam consider Teal'c or Daniel "interruptors" or "intruders," I would be disappointed, but I see no evidence of that. Yeah, she tries to broach the subject again. So do Teal'c and Daniel. And Daniel had been spending the most time with Jack from the beginning. Again, no one sees a problem.

TOPICS ON WHICH I WILL CONCEDE:

1. The team dynamic has changed. Period.
2. Each character, individually, has changed.
3. Certain one-on-one relationships have changed.
4. Sam has been given a chance to show more emotions that Jack, however,
5. Jack was the first one to actually come close to breaking regs in the beginning.
6. Pete does seem like a tool (for other plotlines ), an aspect of him that is completely at the hands of the writers - no one else.
7. Poorly written ship between two characters has the power to ruin the series, although
8. It brings in a LARGE portion of the ship-lovin' demographic of males and females, alike.
9. No one has seen much more action than Sam/Jack (though that doesn't bother me as much as some).
10. Soap Opera ship is bad and should be wiped from the face of this earth.

[THE BIG UNIT]

Spoilers if you havent seen Singularity and Heroes.
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I'm not sure about this but i thought Cassie had a device (a bomb) inside her which would harm her if she got to close to the Stargate and explode if she went through. I think in Singularity they said it was shrinking not that it Disappeared - though it may have, i dont know. But i still would have liked to have seen her, maybe the Actor that last played Cassie couldn't make it, at least she was mentioned, there are many characters who were never visited again.

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

I have a hard time even agreeing because you're basically saying that all of those fans who LOVE the ship don't matter. Maybe not. Maybe you're not saying that but something different, however that's what I'm getting from your statement - which is OK, in respect to everyone's varying opinions... I just think it's a bit harsh. Your condemning the very thing that keeps a lot of fans coming every week.

I am saying nothing of the sort. I am saying I hate it. ME, no one else. It is a demonstrable fact that a lot of people agree with me on some or all of my points of dislike, and equally a lot of people disagree with me. Some people think the show is improving. Some people think ship has improved the show. I DON'T. That's it and all about it. Everyone else is free to have their own opinions and express them. Yes, I want the show to change. Other people don't. Just because I wan't it to change doesn't mean it's magically going to, and that will dissapoint all of those people who don't want change. I don't have that kind of power. The only power I do have is the same power that everyone else who watches has - the ability to express my opinion. I have not personally attacked the fans. I have not personally attacked the actors or the showrunners outside of their professional association with the show, which is not against the forum rules. I have said what I feel - and I have been *very careful* to continually say 'for me' while I am making my points. So if anyone chooses to interpret that as an attack on other fans, then I'm afraid that is their problem.

[ShadowMaat]

I have said what I feel - and I have been *very careful* to continually say 'for me' while I am making my points. So if anyone chooses to interpret that as an attack on other fans, then I'm afraid that is their problem.

I, for one, have enjoyed your posts and I never saw them as attacking anyone or any thing. You speak passionately at times, but that isn't the same as needlessly attacking someone. Speaking passionately can be a good thing and frankly I think this board needs more passionate speakers, especially ones who aren't afraid to go against groupmind and speak up when they don't like something. Thank you for being non-conformist.

[Dani347]

What, there's something wrong with disliking something erely because some other people like it? So what if some of us condemn J/S ship? And, how does doing that translate into shippers not mattering? I can bring up a slew of things I dislike, which I would condemn with as much force as the J/S ship, if I ever got into a conversation about them. Mathematics, for example. I hate all these things. I can rant against these as long and as viciously as I rant against J/S ship. Does that mean I think the people who enjoy math don't matter? (Heh, don't let my math geek brother know)

because you're basically saying that all of those fans who LOVE the ship don't matter. Maybe not. Maybe you're not saying that but something different, however that's what I'm getting from your statement - which is OK, in respect to everyone's varying opinions... I just think it's a bit harsh. Your condemning the very thing that keeps a lot of fans coming every week.

If shippers were doing the same thing, I think it'd be a bit different, but they aren't. They're actually LIKING ship, instead of condemning ship.

Couldn't you just as easily say that the J/S shippers are saying the anti ones don't matter. Because they don't care that there's something that keeps them from enjoying the show each week.

I have not personally attacked the fans.

No, you haven't. And, as far as I know neither has anyone else who has expressed an opinion against ship. Ship and shippers are NOT the same thing, and people can be against one without being against the other.

[ShadowMaat]

Couldn't you just as easily say that the J/S shippers are saying the anti ones don't matter. Because they don't care that there's something that keeps them from enjoying the show each week.

Absolutely. Shippers want ship, and that's all there is to it, as far as most of them are concerned (if you'll pardon the massive generalization).

Whenever an anti-ship person says they hate ship and don't want to see it, a pro-ship person comes along and says, "But what about US? WE want ship! Don't we deserve to be happy, too?" But reverse the situation and have the anti-shippers wail and the sentiment seems to be "Oh well, too bad. Ship is canon now, deal with it."

I would, however, like to point out that this convo likely belongs on the Ship Discussion Thread as it's only remotely relevant to the "Sam in charge" subject of this thread.

[Elwe Singollo]

I am saying nothing of the sort. I am saying I hate it. ME, no one else.

Although i totally don't agree with you, i think everyone deserves a opinion of any such.

[Bagpuss]

Although i totally don't agree with you, i think everyone deserves a opinion of any such.

Shouldn't that be "Don't Totally",lmj?

Or have you suddenly gone on a DR Pepper fuelled assertiveness course?

Before anyone thinks I'm suddenly attacking your POV,if you check that's the correct wording,I'll delete this query!

Don't want ya getting any more "Headaches"!