Fanfic Writers' Virtual Water Cooler

[Amara D'Angeli]

I have been told at times to get a Beta reader to check my spelling and grammar, but then I thought to myself; my last beta reader, as I have used three overall {my mother, Pegasi, and one other elsewhere} had all but ruined my story and I was forced to rewrite it all due to the screwing over I had recieved, the beta is simply to check spelling only, not mess up how the story reads as a whole.

To each their own, I suppose. But I am curious to know why you had to rewrite your story after the beta took a look at it. What on earth could they have possibly done that would force you to rewrite the story? I mean, couldn't you just choose to take or ignore each piece of advice individually?

Goodness knows I do that with my betas now! My betas and I have very different writing styles so we frequently point out to each other where we'd make a different word choice, bring up plot issues or questions, etc. We also correct spelling and grammar for each other (granted, we've all got the benefit of being native English speakers). But never have I been forced to rewrite a story because of all the changes they'd made to it. I just kept what I wanted and discarded the rest.

(One small caveat - I've been known to scrap an entire story when they'd point out plot holes I couldn't even begin to conceive correcting.)

[fems]

I've personally thought of using a beta reader to proofread my spelling, but then I realised that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a beta reader that understands how I write. I write my story, then I have to go through it personally and translate it to english for most of my readers are english or at least american or in that direction. Therefore, translating from Chinese Traditional to English takes some doing, and in many cases the actual translation gets lost {literally} in the translating proccess.

I have been told at times to get a Beta reader to check my spelling and grammar, but then I thought to myself; my last beta reader, as I have used three overall {my mother, Pegasi, and one other elsewhere} had all but ruined my story and I was forced to rewrite it all due to the screwing over I had recieved, the beta is simply to check spelling only, not mess up how the story reads as a whole.

Since then I've never used a beta reader to check mystuff, the reason is simple, my writing is my writing. I really don't care what people who are grammar or spelling nazi's think. I am writing my stuff because I want to, because I enjoy it, and others regardless of how I write, are also enjoying it. Therefore, my need for a beta reader is pretty much none whatsoever.

I don't understand why you take the time to translate your story into another language if you can't be bothered with that language's spelling and grammar and don't seem to care about things literally getting lost in translation.

Personally I feel everyone should do the best they can when writing something (in whatever language) and if they don't have a good grasp on spelling, grammar and punctuation etc. then they should research it and ask for help from someone else, like a beta.

I think you (general) don't only do yourself and your readers a disservice by ignoring everything your beta has commented on because it's too much work for you but your beta, who invested a lot of time in their work, as well.

In your case, Princess Awinita, I can imagine a lot of rewriting is needed if you have literally translated everything from one language to another and I think you should be pleased with not one but three betas who have taken all that effort to make your story more readable. Unless there was some other reason for you to have to rewrite it, although I can't imagine what considering you could just revert to the original document.

Now, I'm not saying everyone should have a beta and do exactly as their beta says but I really think you (general) should consider one and/or improve your writing, readability, formatting, spelling, grammar and/or punctuation if you experience problems with those and readers tell you need one.

[CherryBlossom]

I recently got two betas for my SGA fic and have found them so useful. Putting aside the grammar and spelling, having someone else read the story is good as they can tell you if something, be it sentence or plotline, that doesn't make sense.
I do write stories because I enjoy them but I also get satisfaction from readers enjoyment so I guess it depends on who/why you're writing.
Princess Awinita - I have to complement you on writing a story in a different language, I find it hard enough to write a story set in America seeing as how I'm from England, as there are many words, phrases, culture differences that I am not aware of. Usually my beta will point these out to me.

[Whytewytch]

Princess A, let me state right up front that I am extremely impressed with your ability to write in two such diverse languages. I am overwhelmed at the thought of learning any language that does not even use the same letters/characters that I am used to as a base.

That said, I disagree completely with your viewpoint on using betas. It sounds like you've had a bad experience with the ones you had, and for that, you have my sympathy. I have worked with bad betas before, although not often and not for long. In the long run, a good beta is worth their weight (and then some if they're skinny ) in gold. It is, as you say, your story, and what they give you are only suggestions (unless they are grammar or spelling corrections). I always tell the people I beta for that my comments are suggestions, made in the hopes of improving their story. I am never upset when my suggestions are ignored, because it's not my story.

[selene0789]

I'll admit to be a horrible beta. I agreed to be one too early in my fic career, methinks, and was too much a stickler for character personalities and too many other personal-interpretation factors, and in the end it turned out I was trying to write that person's fic for them.

That was where we both were like "this isn't working" and we parted ways amicably.

I'd probably be an awesome beta at the moment. I'd be careful to stick to the obvious-- spelling, grammar, and plotholes. You know, the logical stuff. I'd leave the artistic stuff to the real author.

[Whytewytch]

Yes, but character personalities still have to make sense; it's not all interpretation. If Jack goes on a killing spree, there has to be a reason. You can't have a character (even an original one) do things that don't make sense for no reason. Even if the reason is that they're utterly flaming nuts.

[Amara D'Angeli]

I'm a tough author to work with. Generally speaking, I delve into deep emotional issues and then go all adult rating on it. My betas can't be afraid to get their hands dirty. And the adult rated fiction subset seems to be small in this particular fandom. What's a girl to do?

Plus I'm carrying around all kinds of guilt over my Bones writing debacle and that's tough to work past. But I fell seriously out of love with the series during the most recent season and a couple of WIPs (including my most popular piece) ended up unfinished. (I had this happen with a West Wing fic, too - again, my most popular piece - but not because I fell out of love for the series but because real life got in the way and I just never quite got back to it.) The plan is still to one day finish them, but I'm still walking around feeling like a fraud.

[Amara D'Angeli]

Yes, but character personalities still have to make sense; it's not all interpretation. If Jack goes on a killing spree, there has to be a reason. You can't have a character (even an original one) do things that don't make sense for no reason. Even if the reason is that they're utterly flaming nuts.

Agree whole heartedly. It's imperative your beta be able to look at you and go, "No. Just...no."

[Whytewytch]

I'm a tough author to work with. Generally speaking, I delve into deep emotional issues and then go all adult rating on it. My betas can't be afraid to get their hands dirty. And the adult rated fiction subset seems to be small in this particular fandom. What's a girl to do?

Plus I'm carrying around all kinds of guilt over my Bones writing debacle and that's tough to work past. But I fell seriously out of love with the series during the most recent season and a couple of WIPs (including my most popular piece) ended up unfinished. (I had this happen with a West Wing fic, too - again, my most popular piece - but not because I fell out of love for the series but because real life got in the way and I just never quite got back to it.) The plan is still to one day finish them, but I'm still walking around feeling like a fraud.

It's like we're soul sisters, amara. I've got a WIP in SGA that is quite popular and has not been updated in many weeks (don't worry, if any of you are reading it--I haven't given up yet). I've also got one in the Robin Hood BBC fandom that is the third of a series and the whole series has been quite popular. That poor story has been over a year in updating and I still get reviews and people asking me if I'm continuing. I hate that I had to leave them up in the air, but RL has been excrutiatingly busy for some time now and my poor muse has run off for parts unknown as a result.

[Whytewytch]

Agree whole heartedly. It's imperative your beta be able to look at you and go, "No. Just...no."

At my RWA meeting last week, we were discussing this. One of the authors was having difficulty because she had received comments on a fic that was in a contest along the lines of, "no mother would do this." She is a mother and she disagreed, but as we all talked, she decided that while the character might do X, it was un-mother-like behavior and so there had to be a reason for it. She left the luncheon having decided to work in a scene that explained the behavior.

And I've had my beta use words like that. They were a bit more...shall we say, "mature"? Jen's not afraid to slap me down when necessary, and that's what I love about her.

[SF_and_Coffee]

I've only been writing fanfic for not quite two years, and have just two stories thus far, both set in the same AU. Both are works in progress, and only one has been regularly updated, although I have material in the pipeline for the other. However, I've been writing fiction overall, and science fiction in particular, for something in the neighborhood of 35 years.

Believe it or not, in over three decades of writing this is the first I've ever really used a beta reader consistently while a work was in progress, and I have to admit that doing so has improved my writing immeasurably. It's one thing to write something and then turn the finished product over to a friend or even a stranger to get feedback. It's quite another to let someone crawl around inside your mind while you're in the midst of the creative process, and allow their reaction to and opinion of the story inform your choices as an author. I must say, it's actually very freeing in some ways, because it's like adding a net to a high-wire act; I know that if I screw up somewhere I'm not going to go too far in the wrong direction before my beta catches what's happening and asks, "Are you sure this is what you mean to do with this?" He has good taste and tends to see the world in a way similar to my own viewpoint -- I can say confidently that we are very definitely kindred spirits and have become good friends through this whole project -- so it isn't difficult to take that sort of thing from him as advice rather than as criticism.

A good beta knows how to couch suggestions as friendly advice rather than as any sort of judgement on the quality or merit of the work itself. At the same time, he or she definitely has to be able not only to edit competently for spelling, grammar, word choice and overall flow, but also to question the author at times on plot points, pacing, event order, and even characterization. These all fall under the purview of a beta reader or for that matter, any decent editor, and if you find someone who can do all that and is willing to work with you -- and you truly click, hang onto them for dear life.

I've actually been fortunate twice with my fanfic, in that the first several chapters of my major story were edited by a close friend in meatspace who is not only a fellow writer but has also worked as a professional editor. That got me on the right track, I think, and when Richard had to bow out of the project due to an unavoidable attack of Real Life, I was able to obtain Sealurk's capable help (and now you know who is the beta reader I've been lauding here) not long afterward. In between I received help with a chapter or two from another SG ficcer on Fanfiction.net and wrote the rest without a net. Sealurk stepped in somewhere around chapter 22 of All That We Leave Behind and I've since invited him to co-author Sabar's Tale with me, as that is turning out to be a project with enough scope to occupy two minds easily. By now, we're doing beta work for each other, so it's a creative symbiosis.

Find yourself that, make the best use of it that you possibly can, credit that person or persons with what is due them for their assistance -- as early and often as you can manage it -- and take care to develop the kind of thick skin that differentiates a so-so author from a good one or even a pro-calibre one. The good authors out there, and certainly anyone writing original fiction at the professional level, have learned to take constructive criticism and use it as an integral part of the toolkit necessary in crafting their work.

Yes, I know we're really only writing fanfic here, or at least that's the topic for this subforum. But even fanfic should be the best we can make it, I think. After all, we are asking readers for their time and attention, so it makes sense to deliver the best product we are capable of giving them.

[SaraBahama]

*saunters in, notes the new sword rack on the wall and brand new watercooler...and a couple of nicks in the counter. Nods sagely to self.*

Hey, All!

Same here, except I can sit and enjoy a few drinks without getting drunk, so I get to have the best of both worlds. I hate being drunk; did it a few times when I was much younger and was not a fan. Besides, it's much easier to enjoy myself when I know I'll remember it the next day.

I have been a teatotaller my whole life -some family history of addiction that I did not want to risk. Hubs and I took a trip recently and I decided to taste a couple of wines in a few different settings. I will admit that I wanted to like it...I really did, but in every case I found the taste of the alcohol itself to be unpleasant. Hubs let me taste a small sip of 'moonshine' and I found the same flavor in that sample. I associate the taste with the alcohol, and I think I will stick with fruit juices -I like a nice, complex blend of juices to sip.

Now, I have a gainfully employed hubby, as well as a teen and a pre-teen who encourage Mom to write. Mostly because a non-writing Mom is a grumpy Mom and a grumpy Mom finds chores for them to do, but whatever works.

I find that I am quite cranky when I am not allowed to write.

Also, I've been tossing around the idea of going back to school to get a second degree in English or Creative Writing or something.

But thanks to amara, whose brain I shall be picking at a later point in time, I have made the decision to go back to school.

Don't forget in the middle of all of the talk about degrees and higher education: JUST WRITE. I've read your stuff, and you have talent for storytelling. Remember that Michael Crichton was a doctor; James Rollins was a vet; John Grisham was a lawyer...

Practice is a good thing, and getting feedback on that practice work will help you grow. Branch out a little and add a few original characters or start a work that is completely original and see where it takes you. I look forward to reading the results. Life is messy, and no one is perfect, but I believe that there is a great work just waiting to be discovered in that beautiful mind of yours (and the same goes for the rest of you!).

Now.

Go...write. *love you, girl!*

[selene0789]

Don't forget in the middle of all of the talk about degrees and higher education: JUST WRITE. I've read your stuff, and you have talent for storytelling. Remember that Michael Crichton was a doctor; James Rollins was a vet; John Grisham was a lawyer...

Practice is a good thing, and getting feedback on that practice work will help you grow. Branch out a little and add a few original characters or start a work that is completely original and see where it takes you. I look forward to reading the results. Life is messy, and no one is perfect, but I believe that there is a great work just waiting to be discovered in that beautiful mind of yours (and the same goes for the rest of you!).

Now.

Go...write. *love you, girl!*

...

...

Guh.

Wow. Sara, you just totally made my day. Week. Okay, month. I'm a little teary-eyed. ((hugs)) Thank you!

The idea of actually making my hobby an actual thing is just... terrifying. And thrilling. But mostly terrifying. For a really long time I've been convinced that nothing productive would ever come of my writing, so I've been content to let my muse focus on fanfic-- which is pretty much unpublishable, even in the official novel verse due to my S/J slant (which I'm not sure I'll ever be willing to sacrifice).

I will admit to having an original project lurking on my hard drive. But unfortunately my muse is most commonly gripped by ideas that are fanfic related... So that's the work that most commonly gets done. I'm honestly kinda hoping that going to school for fiction and creative writing and such will help me spark new ideas for my original fic...

How do the publishable authors here do it? Juggling fanfiction with original work is incredibly difficult for me. Heh. But rest assured, once I have something viable for the open market I'll be here, freaking because "ohmygod I have a story and I have no idea what to do with it!"

I'm just hoping someone, somewhere on the forum here would be able to point me in the right direction. (I'm currently avoiding thinking about publishers and agents at this point, because I refuse to get myself in over my head in terms of scope. I'll come to that when I get to it. Also, I'm hoping these little classes I'm taking will allow me to network and show me how to start small in terms of publishing. Journals and magazines and such...

Gah. Now I'm rambling.

Important part: Sara, you're awesome. ((more hugs)) I've missed you!!

[Raelis]

And the adult rated fiction subset seems to be small in this particular fandom.

Oh wow. We must be hanging out in really different corners of this fandom,then! Most of what I read is adult fiction. And I read a lot!

[Amara D'Angeli]

Oh wow. We must be hanging out in really different corners of this fandom,then! Most of what I read is adult fiction. And I read a lot!

Then help a sister out! Perhaps I should clarify - I've found a bunch of adult fiction, but most of it is not of the quality I prefer. I've slogged through most of what's on Helio 2 but I only found a handful of stories and/or authors that really appealed. Do you have favorite authors or stories? If you do and don't mind, could you PM me the info so we don't derail this thread?