Carson vs. Keller

[Ripple in Space]

Joins in the applause for TJ, even though the post is radically off topic, lol.

[vaberella]

Excuse the typo...yes it is shut. How very nice of you to point that out.

You are basically comparing Teyla to an extra on the set and don't consider that a waste of a character whose actress is in the credits?

No. I don't find your argument easy to understand. Or it may be I totally disagree with you. Even if Carson's contribution was forced, I'd blame the writers, not the character.

You're welcome, I try to be helpful.

As for Teyla, yup I am comparing her to an extra. I've said plenty times in the past there are times I find Teyla...and Weir to be glorified extras. Many an episode S1-S3, they have been worthless in a scene, some times more than others and I make no mistake of knowing who's at fault in those cases. Sure I consider it a waste of character, but she's not a waste of air. She's not taking up voice time and visual time (since I barely notice a presence when they have nothing to say)...so on and so forth. If I do notice, I take note and move on.

I think you just disagree, and that's cool too. I never said I blamed Carson. Carson is a character and his failure has everything to do with the writers. As I said before, they should never have made him a regular. The 'they' I was referring too was TPTB. It's not Carson's fault he was turned into a regular, he's not real enough to do that (but that's neither here nore there). This is similar to the lackluster stories or actions given to the women.**

**Not to detract from the topic at hand. I don't think the writers can't write women. Far from it, they just don't give them the focused attention, and character/human connection, at times they give the men. Here in lies the problem. Carson's problem again for me was when he was turned into a regular and then his appearances hence forth.

[Mitchell82]

Again, I support Keller.

I don't deal well with the dead resurrected. Lastly, I haven't said "What the hell is she doing in this scene?" As I would do to Carson (replacing she with 'he') regularly.

Carson's presence on many occasions was unneeded and forced and it made him more and more insignificant overall. They didn't even keep him there like Teyla with his mouth shut. He would have to sit there and say something that just didn't seem necessary.

I liked Carson and all, but really in S3 (not including Sunday and Misbegotten) he was wasted air.

Basically his downfall really began when they made him a regular. Had he stayed a recurring character it would have been better for him and I'd be a tad upset he was killed off. Right, now, I support the change and prefer Keller.
*Oh, I did like him in Phantoms though.

I agree. I love Carson I really do but he was forced into several eps that did not need him. I never thought Teyla was just wallpaper but that's for another thread. I counted 5 episodes that did not need him at all in season 3.
The Ark: I loved this ep but what purpose did he serve in this ep? He was great in it but Zelenka, Mckay or some of the other science nerds could have figured out the situation better than him. The only reason he was there wa because a few members were injured but Janet or Lam didn't go on every mision with a few injuries.
Irresponsible: While many hate the Lucius eps I liked them but Carson was not needed in this one. All he was there for was to do a blood test. Any medical intern or nurse could do that. Hell even Shep could.
Irreistable: Why was he here at all? I like the ep but why was he here?
Return 1 and 2: He did actually serve a minor purpose here, ie the drone chair, however it could have been anyone with the gene. The CMO had no real purpose here.
So far Keller has not had this problem and has been great so far. I realish the chance to have Keller and Carson in season 5 but at this point Keller has more than filled his shoes.

[erb]

Well, I will just have to disagree with those who found fault with Carson being made a regular. He could be utilized effectively and I would look forward to it because I find him to be a character I want to watch. (As opposed to Keller who I have no interest in.) The writers just need to do so. The same goes for the other supposed main characters.

And I strongly disagree with you, Mitchell. The fact that Carson has the gene is a part of his character and should be used. Also, having a doctor along when you expect injuries doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

By the way....was it really necessary for Keller to clean/stitch Ronon's cut...or could any other doctor have done it? Your arguments against Carson can just as easily be used against Keller.

The characters on the team seem to get a pass for their presence just by virtue of being on the team. Frankly, I found Rodney's part in most of Coup D'etat to be forced.

[Mitchell82]

Well, I will just have to disagree with those who found fault with Carson being made a regular. He could be utilitzed effectively and I would look forward to it because I find him to be a character I want to watch. (As opposed to Keller who I have no interest in.) The writers just need to do so. The same goes for the other supposed main characters.

And I strongly disagree with you, Mitchell. The fact that Carson has the gene is a part of his character and should be used. Also, having a doctor along when you expect injuries doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Sure they need to use his gene but not when he has nothing wlse to do in the rest of the episodes.I did like him in Return however his character should never had been there. The CMO has zero reason to be on a covert operation to siege a city. And you argument is flawed as you can never predict injuries and no one was really badly hurt in this ep. Also I had no issue with him being a regualr I had issue with him being in eps he shouldnt be.

By the way....was it really necessary for Keller to clean/stitch Ronon's cut...or could any other doctor have done it? Your arguments against Carson can just as easily be used against Keller.

Maybey but I do disagree.

The characters on the team seem to get a pass for their presence just by virtue of being on the team. Frankly, I found Rodney's part in most of Coup D'etat to be forced.

I disagree. I loved Carson as well but I was willing to give Keller a chance just like Lam and in both cases they filled their predecesors shoes well.

[Integrabyte]

Carson will come back, Keller will go fishing by herself

[Ripple in Space]

The CMO has zero reason to be on a covert operation to siege a city. And you argument is flawed as you can never predict injuries and no one was really badly hurt in this ep. Also I had no issue with him being a regualr I had issue with him being in eps he shouldnt be.

Lol, all true, but I loved him in that ep. If it were my call he still would've been in there.

I do disagree that Keller filled Carson's shoes.

Group dynamic: Paul (Carson) and David (McKay) are close buddies in real life, and it showed onscreen. He had amazing chemistry with everyone. Well I can't recall any great Teyla chemistry, but it was certainly good. And he was even GREAT with Ronon ("Sateda" & "Runner").

Keller hasn't had great chemistry with anyone so far. Acceptable, but not amazing.

Qualifications: Beckett is believable as a genius/prodigy age-wise. Keller isn't remotely. Beckett was the "cowardly lion" in combat situations, but always pulled through and often saved the day. And in the Medical Lab he was a huge presence, and believable as CMO, imo (I'm a med student). He also created a retrovirus and gene therapy that seems to be beyond almost any other medical advancements in the universe. What has Keller done?

Jewel's a good actress, but Keller is a puzzling CMO.

[erb]

Lol, all true, but I loved him in that ep. If it were my call he would've been in there.

Me too! But I look at it differently. Why should someone's job title prevent them from participating in the attempt to take back a city they considered part of their home? I loved all the main cast being a part of regaining the city.

As they were going against orders and up against a time constraint, it wasn't as if they could get help from more qualified personnel.

[vaberella]

Well, I will just have to disagree with those who found fault with Carson being made a regular. He could be utilized effectively and I would look forward to it because I find him to be a character I want to watch. (As opposed to Keller who I have no interest in.) The writers just need to do so. The same goes for the other supposed main characters.

<snip>

By the way....was it really necessary for Keller to clean/stitch Ronon's cut...or could any other doctor have done it? Your arguments against Carson can just as easily be used against Keller.

The characters on the team seem to get a pass for their presence just by virtue of being on the team. Frankly, I found Rodney's part in most of Coup D'etat to be forced.

Unfortunately, he was rarely utilized effectively. We're not speaking all the time, but definitely there were times he was not necessary at all.

Any doctor could have done the stitching, but I've said the same thing about Carson. There were times I've had to question why the hell ALL the elite personnel were off world at the same bloody time. It never made any damn sense to me. It just boggles the brain. Normally, you send your secondary officers and then your major ones. I understand the purpose of some of the people on the Team. Teyla becomes important for negotiations or at least initiations (there's an Athosian girl on Lorne's team, or there was at one point). Mckay definitely...considering the uber dangerous missions (but Zelenka has been proven effective and that could change up). John/Ronon can be changed up, since I feel Lorne is just as effective (if more by the book). But then again the Team may not be the main team, just one of the teams we're looking at which sort of nullifies that problem. ~sigh~ But Carson is the main head resident and I don't his position in a few places. Same with Keller doing some of the mundane tasks any qualified nurse could do.

I understand your statement in the last part...hopefully I gave an explanation above on that regard. It's not that they're the Team, mainly the fact they're the team we're looking at. When you go back to eps like The Hive/Lost Boys where you get a good look at Lorne's team, it's a similar breakdown (Athosian Girl from The Siege was on his team last I saw). For all intents and purposes, Lorne's team at times is made up of the secondary cats...I don't get it either. But they don't really get a pass. I may think Teyla (at times, which I said before) is a glorified extra---I find the essence of her character is essential on a team like that; this is also why I mentioned the Athosian girl (or a girl who looked like her) on Lorne's team. We also know that many Athosians were working as guides on the Atlantis teams from S1----I'm sure that's been retconned out though because of Missing. But whatever.

I did however understand Rodney's presence. They knew Ladon was a scientist and very adept scientist at that. He was second in command of the Genii, it would seem, at the time in CD. They could have easily sent in Zelenka, but it's been established that time and Zelenka don't necessarily go hand in hand while Mckay works well, if freaky, under pressure and time crunches. You bring in Mckay just in case Ladon had anything cooked up for them they didn't know about. A scientist was needed, it's just debatable which one you wanted if you're in a time crunch and want to live.

Carson on the one hand, there were several times he was not necessary just wasted space unfortunately and it can't be excused. I won't deny this is the case for Ronon sometimes, sorry to say. I like Ronon the most when critically look at all the characters, but I've just gone please. More case than not for Rodney he's just needed to shut up than really not important. Carson presence was just not necessary on a "regular basis".

Carson was great as recurring and I felt that gave him room to grow and develop. I liked catching that tortured look here and there. I just found making him a regular turned him into more of a problem/noose around the necks of the writers, so the most effective way to under-utilize him again was to kill him off. I'm not keen on the death thing, but I understand the reasoning since his presence was becoming more of a problem than not.

[Scottish Doctor]

Carson all the way. I find Keller too whiny.

[Mitchell82]

Lol, all true, but I loved him in that ep. If it were my call he still would've been in there.

Oh I agree he was great in that, I probably would have made the same call considering that it was an illegal opperation.

I do disagree that Keller filled Carson's shoes.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Group dynamic: Paul (Carson) and David (McKay) are close buddies in real life, and it showed onscreen. He had amazing chemistry with everyone. Well I can't recall any great Teyla chemistry, but it was certainly good. And he was even GREAT with Ronon ("Sateda" & "Runner").

I do agree with that I loved how well they meshed.

Keller hasn't had great chemistry with anyone so far. Acceptable, but not amazing.

I see your point, however she has only been in 7 episodes. So it's tough to make that call, however she has developed a bond with Teyla and Shep so far. So I think so far she has fit in nicely.

Qualifications: Beckett is believable as a genius/prodigy age-wise. Keller isn't remotely. Beckett was the "cowardly lion" in combat situations, but always pulled through and often saved the day. And in the Medical Lab he was a huge presence, and believable as CMO, imo (I'm a med student). He also created a retrovirus and gene therapy that seems to be beyond almost any other medical advancements in the universe. What has Keller done?

Jewel's a good actress, but Keller is a puzzling CMO.

Again I see your point. However though the age issue is true she performed a very complex nerosurgery in Adrift, saved sheps life in a very complex situation that no medical proffesional is trained for in Doppleganger, despite memory loss helped Rodney distribute a cure in Tabula Rasa, saved a mans life in Missing not to mention gained her combat legs. She has IMHO more than proved herself.

[Ripple in Space]

I see your point, however she has only been in 7 episodes. So it's tough to make that call, however she has developed a bond with Teyla and Shep so far. So I think so far she has fit in nicely.

Definitely a bond, but even when she spent that whole ep with Teyla, it didn't have that feel like:
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where the chemistry just jumps off the screen. I thought Paul managed to establish that with essentially everyone. And Jewel hasn't, in my eyes. But then the only "warm" female lead they've ever written was Weir, and they got rid of her, lol. I love Carter, but she's far from warm, not that she should be. And Teyla isn't either. They have their moments, but overall they don't have that feel where they talk to everyone like they've known them for years like Daniel and Carson do.

Again I see your point. However though the age issue is true she performed a very complex nerosurgery in Adrift, saved sheps life in a very complex situation that no medical proffesional is trained for in Doppleganger, despite memory loss helped Rodney distribute a cure in Tabula Rasa, saved a mans life in Missing not to mention gained her combat legs. She has IMHO more than proved herself.

You're right. But more in line with the way she carries herself, I've never seen a CMO show such insecurity when on the clock. They wrote Keller that way, but it's not believable for a CMO, because real CMOs get stumped or nervous regularly, but I've never seen one let it show (intentionally) or even acknowledge it until the situation has ended.

[Mitchell82]

Definitely a bond, but even when she spent that whole ep with Teyla, it didn't have that feel like:
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where the chemistry just jumps off the screen. I thought Paul managed to establish that with essentially everyone. And Jewel hasn't, in my eyes. But then the only "warm" female lead they've ever written was Weir, and they got rid of her, lol. I love Carter, but she's far from warm, not that she should be. And Teyla isn't either. They have their moments, but overall they don't have that feel where they talk to everyone like they've known them for years like Daniel and Carson do.

I see your point but I do disagree. She may not have as great chemistry as the other examples but so far she has done quite well.

You're right. But more in line with the way she carries herself, I've never seen a CMO show such insecurity when on the clock. They wrote Keller that way, but it's not believable for a CMO, because real CMOs get stumped or nervous regularly, but I've never seen one let it show (intentionally) or even acknowledge it until the situation has ended.

You amke a good point but even Carson was insecure at first this is far from a normal CMO posting. Still she has carried herself well given the circumstances.

[jelgate]

I see your point but I do disagree. She may not have as great chemistry as the other examples but so far she has done quite well.You amke a good point but even Carson was insecure at first this is far from a normal CMO posting. Still she has carried herself well given the circumstances.

Chemistry takes timw to devlop, Jack and Daniel didn't have chemistry in COTG, it took time to create and develop.

[Integrabyte]

Chemistry takes timw to devlop, Jack and Daniel didn't have chemistry in COTG, it took time to create and develop.

Jack is a very difficult person. Took him and Hammond to work things out Daniel and Vala had it from the first scene. They did not need time...