Vengeance (319)

[Atlantean_Fan]

OK. If I'm allowed I have two questions to ask about this episode for those who have seen it.

1) Could it not be that the reason why the bugs got easier to kill is that each time there were less and less of them? If the über bugs were connect like the Wraith seem to be, it'd make sense.

2) What was the purpose of Michael's experiments? No one touched that point yet on this thread, only what they weren't about.

If anyone can answer these questions, I'd appreciate. Thanks in advance.

AF

EDIT: to add another question.

3) What backstory did we actually get on Michael?
I'm also glad that he wasn't killed off.

[LoveConquers]

Participaction. Or ParticipACTION, actually, but I digress.

It was a government mandated physical fitness program run in Canadian public schools during the 70s and 80s (and possibly the 90s). Rope climbing wasn't a part of it when I had to participate, but I guess they could have changed it before my time.

I found it ironic that McKay said that to Teyla, since DH and RL are the only actors of the "main four" who actually would have conceivably known what ParticipACTION was.

Oh that's cool! Thanks for that! I wouldn't have known otherwise either.

[LoveConquers]

Ok, Carson aside this episode was gooooooood. Easily one of my favorites of the series. Fantastic pacing, good atmosphere, and just the right balance of character and plot. This is exactly what so many fans have been asking for. I adore that they dealt with the dubious morality of the retrovirus arc without being preachy. I love all the character pair ups. Finally, finally, Teyla and McKay get scenes together. I love him calling her my dear. Weir's guilt was beautifully played. I loved her expressing that to Teyla. I loved that she got to express guilt at all. I love that this episode dealt with so many emotions and didn't shy away from them. Love, Love, Love. Plot elements and character elements don't have to be separate things. They can be combined, and this episode illustrated it. Rodney was finally shown as part of the team and not this guy the rest of the team put up with so he could save the day. And they lost! No one won in this episode, they merely survived, and that was wonderful.

Now Carson is the obvious elephant in the room, he wasn't mentioned at all. Regardless if in a Watsonian POV you can show why in a particular episode mentioning him wasn't needed, his death emotionally affected the audience. From a Holmesian POV, this needs to be addressed in how the episode is structured. The audience is part of the writing equation, making them feel, bringing them up, and then bringing them down, and I don't think the writers know how to deal with provoking and utilizing the audiences emotions well. In last weeks ep it wasn't so much Carson not being mentioned that bothered me, I wanted his loss to influence the other characters' behavior. It was odd that it didn't because it made the characters seem OOC. In this ep he should have been mentioned, not by the team, but by Micheal. And he kept referencing "Your People" and not "Your Doctor" or "Dr Beckett" It glared a bit. Internally this episode was fantastic, from the overall arc of the season, it needed something to fit it in. Or like Submersion, be mentally placed before Sunday. I'm already reorganizing it in my head

Did anyone catch what McKay said in that "Ropes was why I got bronze instead of silver in . . .? program? I couldn't make it out.

But I enjoyed this episode so much. It was what I'd been missing since Submersion wasn't the great episode I wanted. So I'm willing to forgive since Carson is not my favorite character. Though I understand why others are bothered.

Excellent post. I totally agree! Loved seeing the emotional and even the little bit of psychological impact as well. It's about time! Very cool.

[LoveConquers]

I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week...

And speaking of whump - in my, admittedly biased, opinion, we missed a wonderful opportunity here given Sheppard's history with the bugs. Given his hatred of them (and I would love to see that expressed/explored in more than
just jokey remarks to the effect that "I hate those bugs"!) and his past experiences etc with both the bug and the retrovirus.. how much more tense/scary etc would it have been to have Sheppard strapped to the table with an iratus bug slowly crawling towards his neck? Teyla can imagine how awful it is to be attacked by one of those things... Sheppard *knows*.

Well, to be fair, three eps out of what, 60, isn't a lot of Teyla whumpage. But I do agree that three eps practically in a row is a bit odd. But I'm not complaining because I'm just plain happy to see her being used! But I definitely see your point. The spacing most definitely could have been better.

Totally agree with your comments on John. I would have liked to see that history explored a little more as well.

Even so, like you, I really liked this episode a lot too!

[Auralis]

Definetly one of the better sga eps lately. And a nice setup for more.
However, since they where going to write carson out of the show, i would have done this in this epsiode. And have him actually killed by michel's little pet bug with the team coming seconds to late to save him.

the emotional impact would have been much better and it would driven home the sheer stupidty of the retrovirus nicely. As well as highing up the tension after carson died because he was a main cast member.

[jerkface]

OK. If I'm allowed I have two questions to ask about this episode for those who have seen it.

1) Could it not be that the reason why the bugs got easier to kill is that each time there were less and less of them? If the über bugs were connect like the Wraith seem to be, it'd make sense.

That could be...but, has it been established that the wraith are any weaker individually than they are as a group? I'm not saying your explanation is implausible, so much as that I think the writers didn't have any explanation in mind—they just made the bugs easier to kill when they needed to for the plot.

2) What was the purpose of Michael's experiments? No one touched that point yet on this thread, only what they weren't about.

Well, I think, for the most part, as the title suggests—for "vengeance." He also talked about being rejected by the wraith for being tainted, and about being betrayed by the humans, so I think he wanted to create his own family/means of vengeance on the galaxy.

I thought though, that Sheppard's "Dr. Evil" response was more apt than they intended it to be. Michael seemed smarter than this earlier on, and now I'm not sure what his long term goal is. To take over the wraith? To just kill as many humans as possible? To prove himself to both sides? To replace both wraith and humans with these new beings?

This last seems most believable to me, but at the same time, he certainly didn't seem to respect his new creations; he was upset at the destroyed pods, but then he sent others off to fight without any qualms. He didn't seem to see them as equals anyway...

Maybe they're still beta versions of what he ultimately wants to create?

3) What backstory did we actually get on Michael?

None really. We got Teyla's speculation about his being an intelligent wraith scientist, but that's about it. I was surprised at how little the team seemed to know about wraith at this point. They've had dead wraith in the past to experiment on (hence the retro virus), and now a dead queen, but they're still not sure how they reproduce? Didn't all their Season 2 dealings with the wraith give any insight into their culture?

-Overall, I found this episode disappointing, but I couldn't force myself to care enough to be more than bored and annoyed.

Maybe I've seen too many horror films (or science fiction shows) but the bugs didn't seem scary to me at all. It didn't help that the team didn't seem all too frightened either.

As nonniemous mentioned above, all the exposition did seem to come in chunks, though I found it a better than the aimless running back and forth. Nonetheless, even when Ronon and Teyla were voicing some of the problems with the retrovirus and the wraith that I'd had, it fell flat for me.

Ronon's previous dislike of the retrovirus had been caused by his lack of sympathy for the wraith, but here he seemed more like a voice of morality.

Similarly, while it was more in character for Teyla to be sympathetic with others, she has much more of a reason to hate the wraith than the Earth people. I can see how her relationship with Michael might have changed her feelings somewhat, but this hasn't been developed enough previously; it felt far too sudden here.

It all just felt sloppy, with the previous Michael and the retrovirus plotlines referenced, but not really dealt with. Story development seemed pushed to the wayside in favor of action scenes (that never got too exciting themselves).

This was the problem, for me, of not having Beckett here; Michael could talk to Teyla about the personal side of the humans' betrayal, but Beckett would have been the science side. And if Michael were a scientist, wouldn't he have been a geneticist (like Beckett) not an astrophysicist (like McKay)?

Even if they had somehow written better dialogue for Michael in this respect, I'm still not sure why they couldn't have had Sheppard and McKay reacting more to the ethical issues brought up by Teyla and Ronon. It made them seem strangely callous.

Finally, it's fine to have Weir look stunned (again) when they give her the news on their return, but it felt like another moment where the female characters are given the remorseful or cautious reaction, while the men are either stoic (Sheppard, Ronon) or comically frightened (McKay).

I don't know...it just feels like another step on the show's descent into utter lameness.

[h22chen]

Another civ. bites the dust...

[Cory Holmes]

My only gripe was that the aliens got progressively easier to kill as the episode went on.
In the beginning it took 4 people to take one down, in the beginning the alien got away even.
Near the end Ronon is one hit KO'ing these guys, by himself. What's up with that?

It's called adjusting your tactics. McKay told them to shoot the underbelly and other "soft" parts and Ronan is a good enough shot to aim for those points. Such as the inside of the mouth, the underbelly, etc.

That part was good for me, but the episode as a whole was muuuch better than some of their other fare. All of the characters had moments where they did their jobs, they were all in-character, and it was GREAT to see some consequences to previous story arcs.


Wasn't it not that long ago when we were clamouring for just that sort of secondary plots? Now we're getting it and I love it. Now we've got the Wraith, the Asurans, and now Michael. The Pegasus Galaxy is turning into a much more interesting place than it was before.

[jenks]

Would of been a good episode, if not for the horrible effects...

[smushybird]

Were the bugs like what Jewel Staite's character turned into? Or more buggy? Did McKay getting scratched(?) suggest they're going to do to him something along the lines of BugSheppard?
I liked it better when new eps began in January.

[Lorr]

This will be brief because I am sure it's all been said. I liked it, a lot. It was dark (I am so happy TPTB listened to JF), both visually and psychologically. The little chickadees have come home to roost. Loved Ronon telling John what he really thought. Loved the fear in John's eyes and whole body. Loved the little CGI bug. I would have also loved mention of Carson, but don't really see where it would have fit in, even remotely, without it sounding false. Of course, there were some holes, but it is television and they had only 43 minutes to tell the story.

[[SGC_ReplicÅtors]]

i loved it when they said aliens and air shaft...rodney pointed his gun at it lol couldnt stop luaghing....man those bugs look like predaliens..

[Willow'sCat]

Were the bugs like what Jewel Staite's character turned into? Or more buggy?

Or more buggy?

Well they kind of looked like Teenage Ninja Turtles only they were bugs not turtles... You didn't see them all that clearly, but really even with CGI which I assume was used, they still looked fake not as fake as Doctor Who of the classic days *bless 'em* but still fake IMHO, I mean even if I was 30 years younger I don't think I would have been scared of them at all, also it was all guns blazing! We didn't really get a moment of Bug/Team member face off it was more Bug *loud music* Team member shoots or hacks at Bug. Bug dies.

Did McKay getting scratched(?) suggest they're going to do to him something along the lines of BugSheppard?

Glad you asked, because I thought that when it happened but then I forgot about it afterwards... so who knows maybe. I kind of hope not, been there done that but still... McKay as bug. I could get behind that.

I liked it better when new eps began in January.

I didn't. LOL!

[gatinha]

hey...I read some comments about "not mentioning CARSON" or anything...
I just remembered MARTIN GERO comment at season 2 DVD....he mentioned about SGA being aired in sydicate or something....so every episode has an ending....one episode could be related to other ..... but also could not....so I geuss that's why they didn't mention about Carson ....also considering the shooting process was not done just for one episode but for some episodes...then went into editing process....

[bluealien]

I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week...

I didnt see her being whumped per say - it was a natural follow up that Michael would want to pick out Teyla as she was the one who "befriended" him and whom he had the closest connection. But if it had been Shep who had been taken by Michael, or whumped in the last few eps then that would have been fine - I don't think we would hear of anyone complaining that the writers didnt know what to do with him, or that he wasnt been developed if HE was whumped in several eps.

I loved the ep - loved the dark and dank setting which really added to the atmosphere. The opening scene with Rodney and Ronan was hilarious and I enjoyed the scenes between John and Ronan. Loved Michael - always a pleasure to see Connor Trinneer and I thought he portrayed the part wonderfully - he came across as someone who had nothing left to live for, because the Atlanteans had taken everything away from him, and the scene with Shep where he lowers his gun really showed this.


All over a very entertaining episode and one I will watch again.

9/10