Vengeance (319)

[Domesticated Equine]

1. He was mentionned. Unless "your doctor" is someone else.

Suffice to say, I was hoping for something a bit more substantial.

2. The Atlantis team didn't mention him, but I actually found that to be quite believable. I think the fact of Carson being dead has people viewing the situation differently than they would otherwise. If they had time to go back to Atlantis and try and analyse Michael's data and didn't mention him, that would be one thing. But this... even if Carson was alive, it's very unlikely he'd get a direct mention in the middle of a battle (which this essentially was). The team would have been focused on the situation at hand and how to get out of it alive, and deal with the rest of it later. That is entirely realistic in terms of real military situations.

The issue is not really whether the team would have been thinking or talking about Carson while on the mission. The issue is that TPTB chose not to include any scenes in the last two episodes where the characters could have discussed Carson or at least shown that he was missed. Not that the lack of character development or continuity is anything new to the Stargate franchise.

[ShoDar]

Suffice to say, I was hoping for something a bit more substantial.

The issue is not really whether the team would have been thinking or talking about Carson while on the mission. The issue is that TPTB chose not to include any scenes in the last two episodes where the characters could have discussed Carson or at least shown that he was missed. Not that the lack of character development or continuity is anything new to the Stargate franchise.

You know, in the first season of TNG, my favourite character was Tasha Yar. Her death towards the end of season one was deliberately pointless (unlike Carson actually trying to save lives). In a later episode, Data is in danger of being disassembled and Picard shows a holo-pic of Tasha that Data has to show that he has an emotional side. It was very touching, and sounds like it's similar to what the Carson fans want. It happened in the middle of season 2. There were 11 episodes with no substantial mention of Tasha before that happened. And it worked. It was respectful of the character and the fans.

And the thing is... that is very true to reality. There has been a death recently of someone close to a family member of mine. There haven't been very many mentions of this person outside of arrangements and one or two "I remember.." stories. And those have all happened in relatively private moments, not out in the open. Even when the loss is still quite close, most people don't go around talking about it.

It's not unreasonable either in real life, or in a show that there would be little or no mention of a deceased person unless the situation really calls for it, and I've already stated my belief that the follow up of this should mention Carson, but this episode really didn't have a place for it.

And personally, I find the clamor of "they should come up with a way to mention him" is disrespectful of the character. It's like all the stuff about Weir being in fewer episodes. I don't see how it is better for Weir to be in more episodes but be the equivalent of "hailing frequencies open", rather than have her be in fewer episodes but have tham make sense and do something with her. In the case of Carson, I'd rather wait for a "The Measure of the Man" type episode that mentions him in a way that is really fitting and interesting than have them stick in a scene or line that would be there to appease the fan-girls (and boys) instead of flowing organically from the story. If TPTB had wedged him in there without treating it properly, I'd probably complain about them jumping the shark.

[SaberBlade]

i enjoyed the episode alot. It's nice to see the darkside of Beckett's Iratus experiments.

One thing i'm confused about is why McKay would have a Gi. I know that it's an obvious reference to 'A Dog's Breakfast' but overall it seems something strange for McKay to have, especially a yellow belt and learning sword techniques.

Overall I thought it was a good episode, and it actually make Michael more likable to me as in the past he seemed like a cheap way to have a villain when they can't think of anyone else.

[Domesticated Equine]

And the thing is... that is very true to reality. There has been a death recently of someone close to a family member of mine. There haven't been very many mentions of this person outside of arrangements and one or two "I remember.." stories. And those have all happened in relatively private moments, not out in the open. Even when the loss is still quite close, most people don't go around talking about it.

It's not unreasonable either in real life, or in a show that there would be little or no mention of a deceased person unless the situation really calls for it, and I've already stated my belief that the follow up of this should mention Carson, but this episode really didn't have a place for it.

I'm not necessarily asking for a big moment here, I don't need a character to spontaneously go into a speech about how much he misses Carson. What I do want is to see the effect his death has on the people that were close to him. In TV-land the writers can show us those private moments, but they chose not to do this.

In the case of Carson, I'd rather wait for a "The Measure of the Man" type episode that mentions him in a way that is really fitting and interesting than have them stick in a scene or line that would be there to appease the fan-girls (and boys) instead of flowing organically from the story. If TPTB had wedged him in there without treating it properly, I'd probably complain about them jumping the shark.

The problem here is that the story is not flowing organically at all. A major character is killed and we get essentially no mention of him and the aftermath of his death in the next two episodes. The issue just sticks out like a sore thumb and any sort of effort to remedy the situation later on just isn't going to change it.

Oh and jumping the shark? The way I see it, that happened already in season 2.

[Starxgate]

Boring episode. Awesome settings & atmosphere. Bring on The Shroud

[ShoDar]

The problem here is that the story is not flowing organically at all. A major character is killed and we get essentially no mention of him and the aftermath of his death in the next two episodes. The issue just sticks out like a sore thumb and any sort of effort to remedy the situation later on just isn't going to change it.

I disagree completely. It sticks out mainly because people are upset to start with and keep talking it to death. But whatever. Have fun with your negativity


Oh and Chuck had lots of lines!!!!!! Yay!

And Ronon teaching Rodney to fight was priceless I knew there was a reason that Ronon is my favourite character

[Starxgate]

One thing I dont like is they had their hands on a dart. What happened to it ? Did they just use it to open the gate & then leave it ? That would have been stupid. Fly the dart back to the planet Atlantis is on you idiots or at least gate to a planet they know of that is close enough to that planet to fly the dart back home. People are whining about SG-1 taking over Atlantis but you know what I am whining about the stupidity of the characters. The show is killing itself & stuff like this is getting annoying

[Domesticated Equine]

I disagree completely. It sticks out mainly because people are upset to start with and keep talking it to death.

The reason it sticks out is that I've grown to expect continuity from TV shows. But I understand it's not that important to everyone so I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. Btw, I wasn't upset with Carson's death, in fact I thought 'Sunday' was the best SGA episode in a long time.

But whatever. Have fun with your negativity

Hey, I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em. If an episode sucks I'm not going to spare the snark but I also get really enthusiastic about quality TV. And yes, I'm having fun or I wouldn't posting here.

[All hail the USAF]

all this talk about Carson being an important part of the story arc....I kinda disagree...I mean yeah he kind of "created" Micheal but....Tayla is more important to his story I think

[Domesticated Equine]

One thing I dont like is they had their hands on a dart. What happened to it ? Did they just use it to open the gate & then leave it ? That would have been stupid. Fly the dart back to the planet Atlantis is on you idiots or at least gate to a planet they know of that is close enough to that planet to fly the dart back home. People are whining about SG-1 taking over Atlantis but you know what I am whining about the stupidity of the characters. The show is killing itself & stuff like this is getting annoying

I'm right aboard with you on the stupidity of the characters, but this time I recall Sheppard mentioning that Daedalus would pick up the dart later from another planet.

[burgerboy]

any screencaps

[Starxgate]

Sheppard said nothing about the dart. He specfically wanted the Daedalus to do a sweep around the planet & detect if any more of those bug things were still alive & on the planet. They more then likely knowing Atlantis just left that dart there.

[nonniemous]

The "Tribute" episodes continue: Can you say "Aliens"? "Ripley?" I knew you could. DH nailed it when he said they were basically just running from a bunch of big bugs in this episode.

Talk about a let down. It was all, all, ALL set up and no pay off. The best part of the show was the first 10 or so minutes when there was real suspense and curiosity as to what had happened, what was going on? Then it was just "how many bugs can we shoot?" and Michael's lovely little bit of exposition and Teyla and Rodney's exposition and Ronon's exposition...

I do give them bonus points for trying to address the stupidity of the retrovirus arc by, *cough*yes, more exposition*cough* having Ronon say it was a bad idea from the beginning and then ask "How long do you want to keep paying for it?" Teyla's regret was nothing new; she's been the one who expressed the most doubts all along. But it fell flat here. Not to mention that lame bit of exposition as to where Michael got his Mad Geneticks Skillz. Instead of oh, maybe he picked it up rummaging through what's-his-name's brain for two days, no, we get "Maybe he was a scientist. One of their best. Like you." Which Rodney and DH properly ignored for the pathetic bit of writing that it was.

Connor Trinnear didn't even deliver this time; maybe the stupidity of the script got to him, too? He seemed to relish the role in the past, revel in it even. This time they could have had anyone beneath the makeup and it wouldn't have mattered. Flat, flat, flat.

This is the first Carl Binder scripted episode in which I've been sadly disappointed. Even without Carson, I had hopes for this episode, for something complex, something layered with meaning and subtlety, for something delivering on emotion and regret and determination and...gah. I could have and was willing to accept the lack of Carson if they'd delivered on all those other fronts--they had SO much material with which to work. But no, we got the "Vengeance for Dummies" edition instead, and a setup for a new, even more stupid bad guy after they nuke the Asurans.

This is what they give us in a bid to increase ratings? Teyla's upthrust cleavage and a bug crawling over it about sums it up. Chalk one more winner (loser?) up into the "episodes that are pitiful rip-offs of a damned good movie" column.

2/10

[zilexa]

You are wrong Starxgate, he first said, didn't want to damage the controlroom, Daedelus can pick IT up later. Then he said he wanted the deadelus to make a stop, sweep around the planet.

This was a really good episode, especially compared to many of the previous episodes.. they seem quite dull now.

I do HATE one thing:

Spoiler:

we wont see the sequel! how this plot will continue.. untill season 4 since the next episode is the final one and will be about ..

Spoiler:

..the Asurans attempt to wipe out Atlantis once and for all (the writers wanted a plottwist for S4) but I do like the storyline of this final ep

[Domesticated Equine]

Sheppard said nothing about the dart. He specfically wanted the Daedalus to do a sweep around the planet & detect if any more of those bug things were still alive & on the planet. They more then likely knowing Atlantis just left that dart there.

Sorry, you're mistaken. My transcription from the relevant part:

McKay: We barely made it ourselves. We had to commandeer a wraith dart just to dial out.

Sheppard: We ditched it on another planet. Didn't want to risk damaging the control room. Daedalus can pick it up later.