Submersion (318)

[Agent_Dark]

Can someone explain to me what Weir's purpose on the mission was? Too bad if the jumper breaks down and kills Atlantis' entire senior command staff in one go... No doubt Beckett would have been there too, if he hadn't of departed in Sunday.

Now don't get me wrong, I like Weir, but these episodes prove to me the problems they're having with Weir as a main character in writing the episodes the way they are.

[smushybird]

They really must be amnesiac (that or Elizabeth is) if they're making Elizabeth call Rodney and John McKay... in the same episode.

They've done that in other episodes, where she'll call Rodney "Rodney" and "McKay" both....she did in "Hide and Seek", I know for certain, and she has in other episodes that I can't recall off-hand. She's also done the same to Sheppard. It seems she tends to use last names when she's in her sort of professional, business-like mode....asserting her authority, so to speak. She goes to first names for a friendlier tone. But yes, she does switch back and forth.

[Mitchell82]

I enjoyed it; a very solid (but not perfect) episode. Teyla was great in it, and just reaffirms her position on the show for me; she may not have a big part, but she is consistant and whenever she's given a chance, she'll shine.

The points:

Like "The Ark", this episode had a very alien feeling to it, even if the station was Lantian in design. Here is another example where the setting can make-or-break an episode (for the opposite effect, see Irresponsible). The constant bubbling water and cool, blue light really added to the isolation and danger of the whole situation.

Again, Teyla was great in this episode (I guess this week is all about the women of Stargate ). She maintained her strength throughout, even when she was obviously loosing to the greater mind of the queen. Once more, we see the strong, leader Teyla we've known since day 1.

Loved the little bantering near the beginning; although you're pretty much sure that the extras who talk are dead.

Speaking of which, the one big failing of the episode, as others have mentioned, is the predictableness. The ending caught me off guard at first, and then I quickly figured everything out. I think the Queen believed Teyla's little lie a little too easily. Oh well, 1) deep sea and 2) desperation to get away will do that to ya I suppose.

And about Carson: I had no problem in them not mentioning him; it's too soon and this is hardly the episode for it. Why would any of them bring up the painful memory of their dead friend in the middle of an important mission? The grieving for Danny happened in the team's off hours, and I don't think they mentioned him at all once they got drafted by Thor on their mission.

Now Vengence, yeah, they better make a big stink if

Spoiler:

Michael

asks for Carson.

So, we have a cruiser now eh? If it happened more in the middle of the season, we would probably never see it again, but I think they're definately getting ready for the season finale here. IMHO, we'll be seeing the Cruiser again.

Lastly, Andee Frizzell did a great job, as usual.

Anyway, the team moments were solid, while Teyla shined. This solid episode gets...

Score: 8/10

I agree however the only predictable part was the ending ie the trick. Still I loved the eentire ep as everyone was in top form IMO. Andee always does a great job and shined again here. I agree on Carson and about Vengence I have a feeling they will similar to season 5's revelations.

[Mitchell82]

My thoughts as well. Thanks for posting this.

Someone mentioned the setting and lighting being good. I enjoyed the station's feeling also. And the close room they used to interrogate the queen was creepy.

I'm a fan of the water eps, this one no exception. They threw in a Wraith and so I'll re-watch.

I was happy to get the explanation about Teyla's mind-meld thing, specifically that she has to initiate the connection. I thought the ep used Weir and McKay dialogue well to clear up any gray areas there. And Teyla took on a queen. Opens up possibilities for the future I hope get explored. So much more to tell about the Wraith.

I was pleased with the pace. I like to hear the characters talk more than I like to see them run and shoot. Okay, well, maybe as much as I like the action.

And wet, I like them wet on occasion.

Nice visual with the jumper windscreen.

I'll watch it again.

I agree this was indeed top notch from start to finish.

[Ouroboros]

I was pleasently surprised and shocked to actually see a Wraith in this episode. I was also pleasently surprised to see that Cuperus avoided all the typical ethical traps of "heroic" torture and murder of helpless POWs some of the previous writers fell into. Once I saw that they had her tied to that table I was thinking "this is going to be the one that tops Bob, helpless woman prisoner shot in the head while tied to a table for not co-operating enough with invasive mind probes." Just as I thought I saw good old Admiral Cain nodding in approval in the shadows I was glad to see I was mistaken.

This episode wasn't a blockbuster by any means and is probably the weakest of Cuperus 3 episodes so far. That said though it was still on a whole other level from most of the rest of season 3. Why in the name of Goa'uld did they let this guy go. I know I've *****ed about this before but seeing yet another well above average ep from him amkes me feel like *****ing about it some more. He's proven he's not just a one hit wonder and he's better at writing Wraith by leaps and bounds than anyone else they have on staff. He's the only one that actually seems interested in depicting them as people on occasion, like he did here with the sad tone that went with the story of the queen's lonely prison on the ocean bottem. For all her badassing around in the episode they did set aside just a tiny bit of the 42 minutes to hint at a sympathetic side and I appreciate that. That alone makes it a stand out among the various Wraith episodes that depict them as halloween clowns and soulless moving targets, anything but feeling beings. Obviously that's unrealistic, simplistic and even somewhat disturbingly propagandistic, when talking about a species that's half human and I like that this episode tried to tip the scales a bit in the other direction for once, just like common ground did. I hope future episode somehow follow this example, even after Cuperus' boneheaded firing.

[The Sweet Guy]

I hope they pick up that cruiser or at least mention it, it would be stupid if they just forgot about it like they did with the ancient warship in Return Part 2.

Oh and I agree completely Ouroboros, Ken really knows how to write the Wraith. I hope their reason for ditching him isn't because they may be ditching the Wraith as the main villian. Its hard to tell at this point who's going to be the primary villian, what with having 2 Wraith episodes at the end of season 3. I hope they're just focusing on Asurans because they're the new guys..

[Copernicus]

I'm actually confused about some of the episode, which is odd, because I called all the plot points, just not the ending.

Originally I had expected Teyla to be acting indepedently when she used the false memory and that McKay and Sheppard would either be surprised or have been radioed ahead when Teyla recovered. This, in my opinion, would have been far more interesting for her character anyway.

Then, as the episode ended, it looked like it was planned. However, if it were planned, something about the timing doesn't add up. For starters, when McKay and Sheppard arrive the first time, there are just under 30 minutes left on the self-destruct. Forgive me if my math is too zealous, but just under 1 kilometre would be about .6 of a mile. Upon arriving, John has to pack the generator into his suit and then travel back for another .6 of a mile. We're looking at at least fifteen minutes for Sheppard to merely travel back and forth from the cruiser under normal walking conditions, though I'd estimate much longer because he is at the bottom of the ocean, which would make movement incredibly difficult. Even if McKay came up with the idea right after the just under 30 minute clock stopped, the timing simply does not work.

Also, Ken, I love your work with the rest of the characters in Atlantis, but I simply can't stand your take on McKay, which is regrettable because he is my favourite character. First season or in SG-1 maybe, but your writing of him does not jive with all the other writers. I have the somewhat dubious honour of having people note that I have a number of McKayish tendencies. My brother was calling me arrogant, petty and bad with people long before Grace Under Pressure existed, though he's usually kind enough to toss in brilliant with it, but whenever you write for McKay I feel like I have nothing in common with him.

Am I being a little self-centred to assume a random fictional character should mimic my pesonality? Probably, but the truth is that in every other episode, the questions "What would McKay do?" and "What would Copernicus do?" return with the same answer. Your episodes are a peculiar exception to this rule.

[PG15]

Hmmm...I wonder, is Ken reading this thread?

We're happy to hear your thoughts on the episode Ken! Whatever they are!

[Mitchell82]

Hmmm...I wonder, is Ken reading this thread?

We're happy to hear your thoughts on the episode Ken! Whatever they are!

I'm sure he is as most of his eps get praised by us.

[Copernicus]

I'm sure he is as most of his eps get praised by us.

We gave him a pretty tough time over The Ark. Maybe we scared him off.

[Mitchell82]

We gave him a pretty tough time over The Ark. Maybe we scared him off.

True some did but I didnt it's the same here. Not all liked the Ark and not all liked Submersion but I think a majority did though I could be wrong.

[Ouroboros]

Oh and I agree completely Ouroboros, Ken really knows how to write the Wraith. I hope their reason for ditching him isn't because they may be ditching the Wraith as the main villian. Its hard to tell at this point who's going to be the primary villian, what with having 2 Wraith episodes at the end of season 3. I hope they're just focusing on Asurans because they're the new guys..

From what I heard they're letting him go in order to make room on Atlantis for the various good 'ol boys from SG1 who'll soon be without jobs.

We gave him a pretty tough time over The Ark. Maybe we scared him off.

Aside from one little Teyla>1000 people ethical jolt, that I think was more the fault of the editing than his script, I really liked "The Ark". The main complaint I had was that it wasn't longer. What was it exactly that people were giving him a hard time about?

I gotta say I really like the guy. From what I've seen I really think his writing represented exactly the direction I'd like to see the series take. Losing him from the writing staff is a much bigger deal to me than any of the character/actor changes everyone's making such a fuss about. He was almost like a cruel tease to show that it was in fact possible to use the available material here to make a much better show than we're curently getting.

I hope wherever he ends up they appreciate his talent more.

And I'd laugh my ass completely off if it was Battlestar Galactica.

[FallenAngelII]

They've done that in other episodes, where she'll call Rodney "Rodney" and "McKay" both....she did in "Hide and Seek", I know for certain, and she has in other episodes that I can't recall off-hand. She's also done the same to Sheppard. It seems she tends to use last names when she's in her sort of professional, business-like mode....asserting her authority, so to speak. She goes to first names for a friendlier tone. But yes, she does switch back and forth.

Elizabeth hasn't called Rodney Mckay for a very long time. "Hide And Seek" was over two years ago.

[ozchick]

Have to say that I enjoyed this ep. But just once I would like to see McKay shoot something and have it die just to see the surprise on his face.

[Mitchell82]

Have to say that I enjoyed this ep. But just once I would like to see McKay shoot something and have it die just to see the surprise on his face.

LOL yeah that would be nice.