Phantoms (309)

[stubadingdong]

You said that several times before, and since my first post on this topic. I'll say it again, I don't see it that way and didn't interpret that, and I'm far from being a die hard "romantic shipper", so mine is on the facts that I know in past seasons and relate it to this episode. Even other posters who are far from shippy, picked up something else from the scenes, so there's really no need to reiterate your point to me. As I said, I read it the first time and I don't agree.

Great! Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I find it significant that John saw a friend, someone he risked his career (which, as I mentioned was something he loves a great deal) and life to save; that's what he saw in Teyla. Again, with Rodney he saw an enemy, it may deep into his hallucination but he saw an enemy. All I'm saying following in that logic, I find it likely if Rodney was shot at in place of Teyla, he would still be seen as an enemy, and as Rodney is laying there---we still see a vision of an enemy, even after injury. And again, Ronon was seen as an enemy and he was fighting ALONG-SIDE John and Teyla.
Again you may not read that, but that's neither here or there for me, I just don't agree.

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree...still.

Go ahead, I'm sure as hell not stopping you. So far no one knows about John's past from John's lips, they may have read his file or heard from the grapevine, be he hasn't said anything to anyone but to Teyla so far; this was slightly involuntary but he didn't shy away too much from her probing. She has a strong idea of what happened to him back then, she's the one he opened to and explained how he feels about the team in SATEDA. No one else has had those intimate moments with him. Of course though, maybe I'm blind and didn't actually see those scenes.

Ok fine...again, agree to disagree. You really don't need to explain anything to me. Nor I to you. I didn't elaborate because I didn't feel it was part of this discussion. My point was there are other characters on this show that John talks to and is close to.

In Trinity the moment at the end with John and Rodney was completely one sided. So you can disagree, but I'm just following the eps that show the dynamic that I'm recieving. And Allies even shows how much he cares for her opinion, when there's really no need for him to have too, the scene wasn't called for but it was there. So apparently I see something that you're not seeing; and that's hella fine by me.
And check the above about Cpt. Holland, didn't see it fitting a hallucination and saw something else based on what I've seen in the past episodes.

I still don't understand what past episodes have to do with this one. I just don't think it was "significant" that it was Teyla with him. That's all I'm saying. I've made my point and now I'm done. You can talk all you want, but you're still not getting your argument through. Logically, I don't get the significance. And just to be clear, it's not YOU that I'm not getting. I just don't see what you're seeing.

So one more time, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I have no clue about testosterone, since Teyla's situation was because of Wraith DNA, and the Wraith use it on humans. I figured it dealt with experience. Both Ronon and John are the proper military figures, and Rodney and Carson are far from military. Most of those guys who killed each other were military as well----I didn't think it had anything to do with testosterone; soldiers have a way different nightmare on life than a man who works in a 9 to 5 and drinks starbuck on a daily basis (especially those who were trained hard and dealt with friends and family loss, either through war or in the case of Ronon/Genii---Wraith attacks). Not only that McKay was the only one near lucid, and Carson was far from it---he saw zombies; and this is a man all to familiar with death, of course just the aftermath of war.

Well, my bad. I was joking. I failed to use a winkie-face and thus the joke was lost. I apologize that you took it as a serious remark.

As for the hallucination, again going to past episodes, it was more than one person John was going to get or was with in Afghanistan, as noted in Home. Again my question is, why didn't John see another friend, like Rodney as someone else on his team---but an enemy, and this goes for being injured or not?! John didn't, he saw one, and that was seen in Teyla not the others.
Of course we don't know the full details, things are always being retconned, but you're statement on the hallucinations doesn't coincide in what was mentioned in Home, or what I interpreted in Home (for me anyway!)---Ronon or more likely, Rodney could easily have been that other friend. This is also another reason why I don't see Teyla as 'fitting' a role in John's hallucinations. She played more than that.

Again, we disagree on the significance. I think it was just happenstance, nothing more. You can keep on reiterating your point, but it still isn't making sense to me.

[Luz]

I still don't understand what past episodes have to do with this one. I just don't think it was "significant" that it was Teyla with him. That's all I'm saying. I've made my point and now I'm done. You can talk all you want, but you're still not getting your argument through. Logically, I don't get the significance. And just to be clear, it's not YOU that I'm not getting. I just don't see what you're seeing.

He incorporated one circumstance from reality into his hallucination, his comrade was shot, and Teyla by coincidence was shot too, she was just there and he incorporated her as his shot pal. Much like when you're sleeping and the phone rings and your brain doesn't want you to wake up so your subconscious brings the ringing into the dream. It's no a signal from the universe that you're by some cosmic rule forever binded to the ringing, or that that telephone and you have this oh so special connection, or anything, the telephone was just there ringing, it doesn't have to be taken as a sign of your tuw wuv *lol*.

[stubadingdong]

He incorporated one circumstance from reality into his hallucination, his comrade was shot, and Teyla by coincidence was shot too, she was just there and he incorporated her as his shot pal. Much like when you're sleeping and the phone rings and your brain doesn't want you to wake up so your subconscious brings the ringing into the dream. It's no a signal from the universe that you're by some cosmic rule forever binded to the ringing, or that that telephone and you have this oh so special connection, or anything, the telephone was just there ringing, it doesn't have to be taken as a sign of your tuw wuv *lol*.

Exactly.

[bluealien]

He incorporated one circumstance from reality into his hallucination, his comrade was shot, and Teyla by coincidence was shot too, she was just there and he incorporated her as his shot pal. Much like when you're sleeping and the phone rings and your brain doesn't want you to wake up so your subconscious brings the ringing into the dream. It's no a signal from the universe that you're by some cosmic rule forever binded to the ringing, or that that telephone and you have this oh so special connection, or anything, the telephone was just there ringing, it doesn't have to be taken as a sign of your tuw wuv *lol*.

I think the question is even though Teyla was shot and maybe triggered Sheppards hallunication, why did he see her as a friend and not an enemy. I think the person as well as the circumstances played very much into how his hallucination played out. Because of his relationship to Teyla even in his hallunicatory state he saw her as a friend. He has a pretty close bond with Teyla so subconsiously he still knew this was a friend and subsequently his hallicunation played out this way.

But eventhough his hallucination started when both Teyla and Ronan were with him, he immediatiately sees Ronan as an enemy. Again subconsiously maybe he doesn't completely trust Ronan - remember Ronan has shot him a few times.

Why did he see Rodney as an enemy - even after he shot him he still saw him as a Taliban. Again he and Rodney have been at loggerheads quite a bit. So it could very well be that his relationship to each of his team members had an effect on how his hallunination played out.

[Pitry]

Maybe Rodney was right and the device was shielding him from its own effects some what. Either the shielding wasn't entirely effective because it'd been turned up so high or his trips out to talk to Carson allowed it to affect him a little. Or perhaps geniuses just have different brain chemistry from the rest of us mere mortals.

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. Note that at first, when Sheppard hallucinates, he's still able to notice he's hallucinating and that something is wrong, i.e Holland isn't supposed to be there. Same with Ronon - he didn't think Shepard was a wraith from the start, onyl afterwards - and Becket treated his patient quite a while before he started hallucinating - although in his case it isn't that obvious when it started - when the lieutenant that didn't make it tells him he's going to guard otuside, I take it this already is a hallucination?

If Rodney is shielded, then it could be just the beginning, in the phase his brani can still rebel and tell him "this isn't happening".

[ShadowMaat]

Not to add fuel to the flamewar, but I sure as hell didn't give much thought to the fact that the ep was "OMG! Totally Sheyla!" and I'm die-hard anti-ship, prone to hating even the merest looks exchanged between characters.

I know other people see things differently, though, and I have no problem with that. *shrug*

I do wonder, however, if the Wraith device was programmed specifically to make its victims see the wraith as "friends" or if it just portrayed them as neutral elements with the possibility- as in Teyla's case- of being seen as a "friend" by the hallucinating victim.

[FoolishPleasure]

Not to add fuel to the flamewar, but I sure as hell didn't give much thought to the fact that the ep was "OMG! Totally Sheyla!" and I'm die-hard anti-ship, prone to hating even the merest looks exchanged between characters.

I know other people see things differently, though, and I have no problem with that. *shrug*

I do wonder, however, if the Wraith device was programmed specifically to make its victims see the wraith as "friends" or if it just portrayed them as neutral elements with the possibility- as in Teyla's case- of being seen as a "friend" by the hallucinating victim.

There was Shep/Teyla romance? I didn't see any. I've never seen any. I thought this was kinda nice because Shep actually noticed Teyla existed for once, even if he did see her as a "guy". I took that as Shep accepting her as a full and important team player. Shep's team mate got injured in the past. A team mate got injured now. The Wraith machine pushed both incidents together in his mind. That is all. There was no romantic bonding with the universe. These writers don't go that deep.

Frankly, I found the Shep scenes repetitive and boring. The Carson and McKay scenes were more interesting to me, especially the Carson angle.

Thankfully tomorrow we get a new episode.

[sparklegem]

Just saw Phantoms last night, and though I don't have time to discuss the many positives of the episode or read others' opinions, I was compelled to mention how much I disliked the ending after one viewing. I'll take another look at it later. Sorry to be negative, but it was the one thing that put a damper on an otherwise intense, enthralling episode.

This was a horrible episode for the team: they lost 6 (I think) of their own men, one who committed suicide in front of them, another who died in their care because they couldn't power down the wraith technology fast enough, etc. One of those deaths could have easily been from a member of "Team Sheppard" (like if McKay had dialed the gate), and they very nearly killed each other anyway.

I don't see why TPTB insisted on having the false 'everything's okay now' humor moments at the end, which comes across as grating, and undermines the serious truth of the characters' experiences. Perhaps it was intended to be the kind of dark humor that comes from it finally being over or keeping it together or being in shock from such an experience, but that's not how it came across to me. Rodney's my favorite character. And I've read how some think his character's losing integrity for comic relief. I need to watch the episode again because sometimes I change my mind after another viewing, but I felt at that first viewing that the end was a perfect example of it. At his third utterance of "You shot me" I literally yelled at him to shut up (with another element added to the exclamation), and I've never yelled at Rodney. It would have been more understandable soon after the situation was diffused, but this is after they've contacted Atlantis, gotten supplies, done surgeries, and everything squared away. And then everyone smiles at Rodney, Ronan gives a hearty chuckle and John patronizes him. And John's "I'm sorry I shot everyone" seemed to paint all the dire seriousness out of the experience. Would another team be cracking jokes as they took care of Sheppard's team's bodies?

Anyway, in short, the end really rubbed me the wrong way.

[ShadowMaat]

I tend to agree, spark. TPTB don't seem to understand the balance between grim and funny and in McKay's case especially they seem to think that a joke that's funny once is just as funny (or funnier) the third, fourth, and fifth time it's made.

[MarshAngel]

I just watched the episode today and I have to agree. They have lost so many people I just don't understand how they can continue to be so callous about it particularly when they are so often dying for no gain for Atlantis, Earth, or anyone else.
I understand they're grateful for their own lives but why is it that once a person is dead, they're forgotten? They aren't owed any reverence at all? It's just one of a long list of items that make them look bad from an object pov.
We've established they care about each other but can we please ascertain if other people matter to them at all?

[CalmStorm]

In regards to the comments on the main team taking death so lightly and be able to joke, I think it is only a coping mechanism. I think Shep was genuinely upset at the loss, at all the losses. His main priority was to get their dead back to Atlantis first. It was only when that was not an option were they stuck in their situation.

I think that the losses do affect the entire team. However, Teyla and Ronon have always been exposed to death with the wraith and the fight against them their entire lives. Shep has been exposed to death with his time in the military. Now, Shep, McKay, Carson and Weir have all been exposed to death and the situation they are in since their time in the SG program.

It is a risky venture everytime someone steps through the gate to explore something new. All are aware of the risks and have accepted them. I think the team recogonizes this and tries to move on the best they can. If they were to be completely solemn as most of us would be in that situation, their lives would be absolutely miserable. For most of us, this would be a shocking event and we would probably be stunned into silence and sorrow. For the team who faces death everyday, I think they take it in stride. Even when making the jokes, I think they still feel the pain of what happened, but realize they must go on. In the end, those events, and those deaths will always be with them.

[ShadowMaat]

They weren't main characters, I don't even think they were recurring, so who the hell cares about 'em? Just a couple more pieces of collateral damage in TPTB's Great Big Book of Dark and Edgy. Their lives meant nothing. They WERE nothing. But their deaths provided a few moments of dramatic tension and set up the crux of the ep.

At least McKay showed some angst back in Defiant One when Nyan died. But that was a long time ago and even then it was quickly forgotten.

I wonder if Atlantis sent through some body bags to seal up the decaying remains of the dead plot devices.

[Candy]

I love it when the wraith show up!

[MarshAngel]

It is a risky venture everytime someone steps through the gate to explore something new. All are aware of the risks and have accepted them. I think the team recogonizes this and tries to move on the best they can. If they were to be completely solemn as most of us would be in that situation, their lives would be absolutely miserable. For most of us, this would be a shocking event and we would probably be stunned into silence and sorrow. For the team who faces death everyday, I think they take it in stride. Even when making the jokes, I think they still feel the pain of what happened, but realize they must go on. In the end, those events, and those deaths will always be with them.

It's one thing to believe this because we know that they are supposed to be good people and they do experience these things but it's far more important that we see it on screen when it counts most. For one, it adds depth and meaning and balance. for those of us whose belief in their inherent goodness is not quite so strong it would be confirmation that it's not all fun and games. And the reason why the absence of it is so clear is because it really doesn't take that much time to establish, mere seconds.

[prion]

They weren't main characters, I don't even think they were recurring, so who the hell cares about 'em? Just a couple more pieces of collateral damage in TPTB's Great Big Book of Dark and Edgy. Their lives meant nothing. They WERE nothing. But their deaths provided a few moments of dramatic tension and set up the crux of the ep.

At least McKay showed some angst back in Defiant One when Nyan died. But that was a long time ago and even then it was quickly forgotten.

I wonder if Atlantis sent through some body bags to seal up the decaying remains of the dead plot devices.

They're called 'red shirts,' and they always die Heck, actually, most viewers don't care about them as they rarely if ever speak a line and you know they're just there as canonfodder to move along the storyline. Alas, it's like reality. You see headlines. "24 dead in suicide bombing" and unless the press has a reason to identify them (nationality, importance, etc.) they'll remain just nasty little statistics...

I suspect that the Daedalus will do the cleanup/pickup. Knowing that virtually every team member is injured, I don't think bagging a corpse is high on the list, although, really, the bodies should at least be covered, before the crows find them...