Conversion (208)

[VonKnibble]

You took the words right out of my mouth, Merlin! For all of these reasons, "Conversion" is my new favorite episode – it almost makes "Thirty Eight Minutes" look boring!

I notice how there's been a lot of comparisons to '38 minutes' with this ep, which is totally understandable, but for me, i like to think they both stand alone as great Ep's.

In '38', there was the whole 'whump/team bonding thing which were the main two things about that ep that grabbed me, but being early S1, the team interaction was still very young in it's development, and the angst just wasn't *as* angsty. Now 'Conversion', being S2, there was a lot more emotion in the team interaction because it's had time to develop more. that made this ep sooo much more angsty, and much better for it, too

As for the whump, That man could have been dressed up like suchi dude from that SG1 ep - having brain fart moment and can't remember what it's called, but it's the 1st one where Daniel 'dies', anyway, he could have been suchi dude, lizard man, whatever, he'd still be hot. HOT HOT HOT!!!!

I loved Weir in this Ep. She really showed that strong leader side, took no crap, kicked ass and took names I love kickass Weir. I love how she was blatantly struggling with the saftey of Atlantis vs Shep, and how her own saftey became sort of 'back burnerish' while she was trying to deal. And even when she was being kickass, she was still showing all the angst, and both Beckett and Caldwell called her on it.

I loved McKay, too. (ducks low flying objects). he was still smarting a little from the last ep's complete FUBAR, and was very subdued (for McKay). but i think a lot of that was because of his concern over Sheppard. Thats one of the things where this ep differs and improves on '38', because *now* the characters have a much more developed relationship, and it makes the angst so much stronger. I especially loved the bit after the 1st time Ronon shot him, and Weir was saying that now would be a good time to 'say their goodbyes'. McKay's face...'are we really there?' - Awwwww!!!

Even Ronon got a bit of angst in there too - feeling the guilt a bit after zapping him. I gotta say, that guy has had more character development in these last 3 or 4 eps that Ford ever had in a whole season!

As for the Ship conotations...and *that* kiss...i'm putting that down to hormonally induced alpha male displays of possesiveness brought on by the fighting, and ignoring any and all suggestions of ship....with anyone! If i have to stay in my dream world to do that, then so be it Having said that, after overdosing on zero.point.snark the other day, i am more or less converted to the Shep/Weir thing...if anyone is doing it, then it has to be those two... (ducks again)

[SnoggingPicard]

I'm sorry but I don't feel especially encouraged by that comparison.
I think TPTB has had a terrible record where ship is concerned... And Broca Divide is not one episode that I take too much stock in, I'm afraid... I found it largely forgettable for precisely the reasons stated. If the first inkling that one gets of a latent attraction between a man and a woman is when he forces himself on her in a virus induced haze... well, I'm not interested... It's cliched and pubescent to say the least and points to the rather unpleasant idea that Sheppard sees Teyla mainly on a physical level, which in my book is worse... I'd rather think it was a momentary lapse of reason on his part.

I'm not a hardcore S/W fan and I don't ship for any pairings actively. I take my cue from what I see onscreen and not the other way round. Infact, I care about characterization more than I care about ship... I like the interaction between Sheppard and Weir generally but if they don't get together, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Just my 2 cents...

No, I understand exactly where you're coming from. Thanks for the input -- it's great to have lots of points of view, makes for good discussion!

[ShadowMaat]

Personally, I find it horrifying that anyone could consider that kiss the least bit romantic or "wanted". But I guess it just shows the lengths people are willing to go to in order to suit their own interpretation of events. Much as, I'm sure, all the die-hard Shep/Teyla shippers feel about those of us who refuse to see the slightest bit of mutual attraction in the relevant scenes.

I'm sorry, but even considering that makes my skin crawl, that's how strongly I feel about it.

[FoolishPleasure]

Personally, I find it horrifying that anyone could consider that kiss the least bit romantic or "wanted". But I guess it just shows the lengths people are willing to go to in order to suit their own interpretation of events. Much as, I'm sure, all the die-hard Shep/Teyla shippers feel about those of us who refuse to see the slightest bit of mutual attraction in the relevant scenes.

I'm sorry, but even considering that makes my skin crawl, that's how strongly I feel about it.

If you look at screen caps of the kiss scene, you can see how frightened Teyla is - the kiss was all one-sided, and violent. It was very creepy, and even the music was creepy.

Violence against women includes beating, kissing, rape - none of it is romantic or has anything to do with love. It is a control/dominance issue.

If the scenes of Shep kissing Teyla, and Shep strangling Weir had been flipped - I would feel the same way. Shep being infected was exhibiting a dominance personality. Not a romantic one.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Just watched Conversion and... it was pretty good. Not the most original story in the Atlantis collection, but still, it was enjoyable watching dangerous John, angry Liz, ambitious Steve, worried everybody else.

Headdesk moments when Weir was allowed alone in John's room. C'mon, guys, theatric licence aside, that could've been handled better.

Why the heck weren't the redshirts equipped with simple pressure sprayers to clear the path to the eggs and protect themselves and everybody else from the bugs? Yeesh! Move over, Caldwell; I'm tellin' ya, if I was running these away missions I'd implement some practical, sensible measures.

Lots of ship fodder.

I LOLed at the ubiquitous problem of solitaire on every computer. I wonder if Hermiod is addicted?

So, enjoyable, but not high on my rewatch list.

[knocknashee]

Personally, I find it horrifying that anyone could consider that kiss the least bit romantic or "wanted". But I guess it just shows the lengths people are willing to go to in order to suit their own interpretation of events. Much as, I'm sure, all the die-hard Shep/Teyla shippers feel about those of us who refuse to see the slightest bit of mutual attraction in the relevant scenes.

I'm sorry, but even considering that makes my skin crawl, that's how strongly I feel about it.

I totally agree, but no doubt that moment will be twisted by the shippers to fit their needs...fair play to them if that's what they like...but I'm with you, it makes my skin crawl to think that any level of romance could be assigned to that.

[CeeKay Sheppard]

Personally, I find it horrifying that anyone could consider that kiss the least bit romantic or "wanted". But I guess it just shows the lengths people are willing to go to in order to suit their own interpretation of events. Much as, I'm sure, all the die-hard Shep/Teyla shippers feel about those of us who refuse to see the slightest bit of mutual attraction in the relevant scenes.

I'm sorry, but even considering that makes my skin crawl, that's how strongly I feel about it.

I totally agree, but no doubt that moment will be twisted by the shippers to fit their needs...fair play to them if that's what they like...but I'm with you, it makes my skin crawl to think that any level of romance could be assigned to that.

THANK YOU! I'm glad there are some people out there who agree with me... and can actually word it well...

[coolove]

Personally, I find it horrifying that anyone could consider that kiss the least bit romantic or "wanted". But I guess it just shows the lengths people are willing to go to in order to suit their own interpretation of events. Much as, I'm sure, all the die-hard Shep/Teyla shippers feel about those of us who refuse to see the slightest bit of mutual attraction in the relevant scenes.

I'm sorry, but even considering that makes my skin crawl, that's how strongly I feel about it.

I'm surprised Teyla didn't knock him out for that one because it was a forced kiss. I didn't see that as romantic but as you say horrifying. However, I don't think she knew what was happening to Shep because it was so early in his transformation. But later Teyla had to put two and two together and realized it was wasn't him.

And I'm not too inclined to jump on this "Caldwell has the hots for Weir" because I just don't see it. As another poster put it, he was trying to extend an olive branch and get a long with her. There's no indication that it was a romantic gesture of the slightest. But I do have a problem with Weir and this episode has made me dislike her even more. It doesn't seem she's willing to compromise with Caldwell and his decisions and seems to take everything like he's out to get her.

[derrickh]

People are inching closer to the realization that what happened between Sheppard and Teyla in the exercise room was a lot closer to a near rape than anything 'romantic' .

D

[not so ancient]

I totally agree, but no doubt that moment will be twisted by the shippers to fit their needs...fair play to them if that's what they like...but I'm with you, it makes my skin crawl to think that any level of romance could be assigned to that.

I think both the shippers and the anti-shippers are off their rocker in their reaction to this. The kiss, and all reactions thereto, have nothing to do with romance, at all, nor does it have to do with not having a romantic attraction.

Sheppard was sick. He was acting unnaturally. The bugginess that was growing inside him stripped away the artificial social constructs that we as humans build around the basic biological function of sex. Bugs don't act romantic and have weddings with 3 tiered cakes and really ugly bridesmaids' dresses. They just act on pure instincts, what psychologists call the human 'id'. The retrovirus stripped away his human inhibitions. His body was giving him a "Mate!" signal that had nothing to do with his normal relationship with or felings toward Teyla.

If whatever Sheppard had been experiencing at that moment had happened when Weir, or McKay, or anyone had been around, it could well have been the same. His buggy reaction might have been in line with Sheppard's normal sexual preferences. Or not. He might have reacted that way with someone he's secretly attracted to. Or not.

He was sick. It was really not much different than him having the flu and throwing up. The reactions of a sick person who's losing their normal mental state is neither romantic, nor platonic.

The shippers - and the anti-shippers - are just plain nutz on this if they insist on shipping, or non-shipping, anything between Teyla and Sheppard from "Conversion."

[not so ancient]

People are inching closer to the realization that what happened between Sheppard and Teyla in the exercise room was a lot closer to a near rape than anything 'romantic' .

D

Oh Jesus Mary and Joseph. NOT this again! NOT more hatred of every single man on Atlantis, NOT more degradation of Teyla, NOT more dimestore psychology.

Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea!

Rape, like most crimes, requires a specific mental state.

Being under the control of a toxic mutating retrovirus and losing his ability to use his judgment and control his actions, Sheppard was operating a level approaching insanity. His knowledge of right and wrong was being overcome by bug-like instincts. His consciousness changed from moment-to-moment there, one minute working out, the next minute kissing Teyla, one minute talking with Weir, the next minute smashing a window. He was mentally ill and incapable of forming the requisite intent to rape. He was neither purposeful, intentional, reckless nor negligent, because he was losing the ability to think on a human level and apply our societal norms to his behaviour. Thus it is unfair to hold him to human standards of conduct.

If he had, indeed, raped Teyla, it would have been horrifying and tragic for all, but there is no way Sheppard could be held accountable for it because he was not in control of himself due to illness.

Tossing around words like 'battered woman' and 'rape' - serious accusations of serious crimes - in such a sloppy way is beyond inexcusable. Of all the women posting on this board, do you not stop to think that one of them, at least, has probably survived rape? It's not a word they toss around lightly. Neither should you.

While all of us have empathy for the discomfort Teyla endured, your eagerness to find any pretext to string up Dex for being Teyla's 'batterer' or Sheppard for being her 'attempted rapist' makes me much, much more uncomfortable.

I've been censored for saying what I think of this before but your interpretations say a great deal about you, and bear absolutely no relationship to the characters and situations of Stargate Atlantis that you purport to analyze.

[TheGreatCatOfRe]

People are inching closer to the realization that what happened between Sheppard and Teyla in the exercise room was a lot closer to a near rape than anything 'romantic' .

D

Perhaps TPTB wanted to convey the seriousness of Shep's conversion thru that kiss I'm sure most people got a creepy feeling from that. But comparing that kiss to rape...no not even close. I don't think it was romatic at all...like I said it was a serious situation and why TPTB thought to put that in there...who knows....I'm sure most of those writers wouldn't compare it to rape though.

Like I said before this...this show is a Sciene Fiction show...not a romatic comedy so no one should really concentrate on that part of the story...TPTB will never complete a ship how the shippers want it to happen...they throw out little tidbits now and then just to keep people guessing. But it's not a SHIPPING series at all. I doubt any of these relationships will follow a romantic pattern...ever.

[AshG]

Great episode, I really enjoyed this one.

One (possible) error, though. I might be remembering it wrong, but the planet with the Iratus bugs had a space-born gate (38 Minutes, anyone?), yet in this episode the team just walked on through the gate without a PuddleJumper. Am I missing something?

[Dr Weir]

Just saw conversion, it was good, but not as good as instinct. It's was nice to see more of Atlantis (like where Shep and Dex was running, I want to run there) and to learn more about what's was in the ancient database. Apparatly the ancients did some research into the iratus bug so they probably knew that the wraith are related to them. It was interesting to find out more about the wraith themselves too, like I wondered how they can jump high distances, looks like they got that trait from the bugs and as for Shep being able to stick to walls, would have liked an explanation for that in the ep, might be to do with the spiderweb stuff that's been on the victims of the wraith and on their ships, maybe it comes from the body.

The kiss was forced to begin with but I got the impression Teyla liked it as she didn't put up much of a fight and didn't tell Shep off afterwards or kick his ass. Don't blame her, I wouldn't! Even if she didn't like it, it certainly wasn't rape, far from it, that's a whole diff thing!!!!! One thing I just couldn't understand is why Shep had that prob in the first place, I thought the retrovirus had to work with wraith DNA from the bug originally that was in Elia, but Shep doesn't have. Did some of her DNA somehow enter his body? As for the treatment, as the virus is artificial, I assume the stem cells would occupy the virus until it all was used up and that would be how it worked.

[not so ancient]

Great episode, I really enjoyed this one.

One (possible) error, though. I might be remembering it wrong, but the planet with the Iratus bugs had a space-born gate (38 Minutes, anyone?), yet in this episode the team just walked on through the gate without a PuddleJumper. Am I missing something?

Indeed yes. I was forced to conclude that the planet where Sheppard was attacked was not the only place they could find that species.