Hot Zone (113)

[blue-skyz]

So ... are we talking about the same thing ????

Nooooo, I don’t think so. I think our premises and assumptions are so different that it almost seems like we are talking about different shows. The availability of haz mat suits affects the perception of everything that happens and we are at opposite ends of that spectrum.

If the security people in the control room had access to suits ‘in ‘verse’ then Elizabeth could have easily sent Sheppard a suit as soon as he contacted her or at any other time. If it were true, Sheppard would have had them suit up and stop Peterson. Or told Elizabeth to tell them to. Or told Bates to take some guys and go solve the problem. (Always lots of guys with guns around, though they don’t figure in the episode and I never gave them a thought.)

I’ve always figured that the control room was cut off in its own little containment bubble.
I’ve always figured that the only access to suits by anyone was through someone with a suit.
(I think that Elizabeth told Sheppard that everyone with suits was busy with McKay’s group.)

Bates is up for grabs. There is not enough of him shown to know what part he played. He’s the security guy, but he is never consulted.

But… I don’t see anyone with available suits. Whatever the availability of people with suits to ‘stop a sick man from making others sick’ Weir didn’t use them. Nothing she and Grodin did was effective.

Later, we found out that as Peterson got near the juiced part of the city, the city would have powered up its auto containment protocol anyway.

I don’t think so. I don’t think the auto-containment was going to stop Peterson. It would be no different than the closed doors he was going through. The doors had been closed to stop him. He could open the doors.

I don’t see Sheppard over riding Weir in such a degrading manner unless he considered the situation critical. He always treated Weir with respect and deference. If he had access to any other way to handle the situation, I have to believe he would have used it.

Publicly confronting Weir by countermanding her order in that way is an awful thing. It is an act of hatred and disrespect. It is not in the character of the Sheppard we see elsewhere. It is certainly not in the character of the Sheppard we see in The Storm/The Eye. I have to believe that he would not have done such a thing if the solution was as simple as ordering a security team to suit up and stop Peterson.

Sheppard had to be desperate to do what he did. I think we are meant to believe he was desperate. He saw Peterson as a threat to everyone in the control room. He hadn’t been able to convince Weir that the threat was serious enough for anyone to break the quarantine. She just kept acting like Grodin would come up with a solution but nothing they did was working. And, no, I don’t think Sheppard was preventing them from being able to think. They were out of options, or, anyway, that was what the viewer was supposed to believe.

I can see Sheppard disobeying orders, but not if there was another, simpler path. He wouldn’t do it just so he could be in the action. He wouldn’t hurt Weir like that, if he could see another way.

[expendable_crewman]

I think our premises and assumptions are so different that it almost seems like we are talking about different shows.

Haven't read that in a while, lol.

I don’t see Sheppard over riding Weir in such a degrading manner unless he considered the situation critical.

He did see the situation critical, and the way he felt about it drove his actions. IMO, he did it the wrong way. Teyla's comment in the room while they're suiting up says, to me, the ep (and writers) were aware.

He and Weir had just gone "at it" over an operational decision when they could have worked together.

Teyla overheard everything we (the viewers) did and summed it up pretty good. I agreed with her opinion.

I think that Elizabeth told Sheppard that everyone with suits was busy with McKay’s group.

Exactly. And that's where Peterson was until he broke away. That's where the problem was, meaning Sheppard was too far away for the base commander to risk a containment breach. That was her call.

Not every emergency is a military emergency.

If the security people in the control room had access to suits ‘in ‘verse’ then Elizabeth could have easily sent Sheppard a suit as soon as he contacted her or at any other time.

I don't agree with the 'in verse' comment. The people in the control room shouldn't be leaving except to deal with an emergency. What they have in terms of protection isn't addressed.

What's said is the people in suits are headed toward McKay's group.

In universe, there are more suits than Beckett, his security escort, and his professionals are using because Sheppard's able to find two more.

The problem is Sheppard's sidelined because he's not in the control area or in medical. He's the one without access to a suit and Weir doesn't think she should have to divert resources to him with a suit.

The fact that she can send someone to him but says she's not going to is what gets him going.

He wants "in."

Sheppard had to be desperate to do what he did. I think we are meant to believe he was desperate. He saw Peterson as a threat to everyone in the control room.

Absolutely.

She just kept acting like Grodin would come up with a solution but nothing they did was working. And, no, I don’t think Sheppard was preventing them from being able to think. They were out of options, or, anyway, that was what the viewer was supposed to believe.

As far as what we're supposed to believe, I think it's open to interpretation.

Teyla provides a counterpoint to Sheppard's actions. She's calm but reasonable. Sheppard's comment about Weir getting locked into a decision is condescending, and it is also a "hey pot, meet kettle" moment we're meant, IMO, to notice.

The "hey, idiot, we turned on the transporters for you" comment by Weir (a point he concedes, btw) is in the ep to show rash is not always heroic and out of the loop means out of the loop. He didn't know about the transporters being off-line (they were off until he broke containment, and then Weir gave in and put them on for him) because he was not in the control room where information was readily available. He didn't have the whole picture.

They could have used Sheppard's solution without Sheppard.

This is probably going to be one of those things that itches me because it hits home, like Keller in Missing. It's unrealistic.

No trained and rational person in emergency crisis management is going to badger the scene commander like that. We keep everyone else calm. Disrupting the chain of command freaks out your people.

Having someone butt in while you're making decisions is really bad, and it causes chaos.

Sheppard not only should know that, he would know that.

Plus, everywhere he went in Atlantis after breaking quarantine would be considered compromised. The scene commander needs to know what areas are hot and what's good for operations without there being a question mark. He'd have extensive haz mat response training and know that too.

You're saying Peterson was going to make it without the transporters and there was no one else but Sheppard to stop him.

I'm saying the ep showed there was adequate time that would have allowed Sheppard to talk Weir through an intercept without him breaking quarantine, especially if the transporters were never turned on.

I didn't feel the urgency when the two "heroes" out to save the day are calmly putting on suits and chatting.

Whoever went after Peterson would have met him between doors, where he was slow and unable to run (or transport) away.

[blue-skyz]

He did see the situation critical, and the way he felt about it drove his actions. IMO, he did it the wrong way.

I agree, he did it the wrong way. The questions are, I suppose, how critical was the situation and what other options did he have.

I don’t think Sheppard is guiltless here. But I don’t think Weir is without guilt, either. I do think that is part of the reason for Teyla’s comment. The pot and kettle thing. Two stubborn (or flawed) people.

I think Elizabeth is clearly wrong in several places.

She should have paged him. Time may have been short, but there was time to try his radio, she could have spared another 20 seconds to page her second in command about a critical situation that he would have had an acute interest in and should have been involved in.

She should have let him come to the control room. He responded as soon as he heard the announcement. The situation was not in flux. The quarantine was voluntary. The extra two or three minutes between when he could have come in and when she wouldn’t let him are extremely unlikely to be significant. He is her second in command, not an average resident; his position should be in the control room. He asks to come. He is no where near McKay’s team. She should have let him come or found a way to get him there. (He does obey her.)

She mishandles the Peterson problem. McKay tells her to send someone to stop him, that what they are doing will be ineffective. (He’s the expert.) There is never any talk in the control room about sending anyone to stop Peterson. Sheppard tells her ‘Someone has to do something.’ Then: ‘Someone has to go out there and stop him. Teyla and I are ready.’
Sheppard tries to get Weir to agree to someone going after Peterson. Until she does then anyone going after him is defying her. If there are suits available at a location where some of Sheppard’s men are then, I suppose, he would be able to send them without Weir’s approval without causing too much trouble.
When Sheppard is telling Bates to open the door:
SHEPPARD: Elizabeth, he's heading right for you.
WEIR: So we'll stop him. We'll talk him down, we'll block his way, we'll ...
Great plan! She’s already tried to talk to him (he’s nuts) and they’ve tried to block him (McKay says they can’t). Weir is not addressing the severity of the situation. She doesn’t have a plan. She is doing exactly as Sheppard said: ‘Sometimes Elizabeth makes a decision early on and gets locked into it.’ She is not qualified to be dealing with the situation and she is not listening to the people that understand it and that are qualified. The imminent, known danger here should trump the unknown one.

He and Weir had just gone "at it" over an operational decision when they could have worked together.

The problem is that Weir was not working with him; she simply dismissed Sheppard when he told her that someone would have to go out there and stop him. But she didn’t have a viable alternative.

Teyla's comment in the room while they're suiting up says, to me, the ep (and writers) were aware.
Teyla overheard everything we (the viewers) did and summed it up pretty good. I agreed with her opinion.

Teyla’s comment has at least two functions, IMO. It tells the viewer that both Sheppard and Weir commit errors. It also functions as a diversion to keep the viewer from assuming Sheppard was justified; to make the viewer think Sheppard’s actions are as bad as they seem,

The problem is Sheppard's sidelined because he's not in the control area or in medical. He's the one without access to a suit and Weir doesn't think she should have to divert resources to him with a suit. The fact that she can send someone to him but says she's not going to is what gets him going.
He wants "in."

I don’t see that as his motivation.

The "hey, idiot, we turned on the transporters for you" comment by Weir (a point he concedes, btw) is in the ep to show rash is not always heroic and out of the loop means out of the loop. He didn't know about the transporters being off-line (they were off until he broke containment, and then Weir gave in and put them on for him) because he was not in the control room where information was readily available. He didn't have the whole picture.

He evidently had enough of the picture to know that McKay had told Weir that she and Grodin were not going to stop Peterson and that he was going to make it to the control room. I think the transporters, like Teyla’s comment, are a red herring from the writers to confuse the situation and make Sheppard’s actions appear worse than they actually are. Peterson didn’t need the transporters to get to the control room. He didn’t use them on purpose. Also, they could have been turned off.

They could have used Sheppard's solution without Sheppard.

But Weir was refusing to take the advice of both the Ancient expert and the security expert. She never made any mention of using Sheppard’s solution. How long does the inexperienced commander get to sit on her hands before someone steps in to save the people she is putting in jeopardy. How far is a ship allowed to sink with it captain bailing water with a teacup, before someone mutinies and breaks out the life boats.

This is probably going to be one of those things that itches me because it hits home, like Keller in Missing. It's unrealistic.

It is unrealistic for lots of reasons. Weir is in command. Weir doesn’t listen to her experts. We never see Bates in Weir’s face giving advice. Best of all, shooting a P-90 into a transporter

No trained and rational person in emergency crisis management is going to badger the scene commander like that. We keep everyone else calm. Disrupting the chain of command freaks out your people.

Sheppard should have tried harder to convince Weir that she was in trouble and someone needed to act. He should have told Bates to convince her. He should have told Teyla to convince her. We don’t know how hard he tried. Not hard enough for Teyla, evidently.

Having someone butt in while you're making decisions is really bad, and it causes chaos.

That’s the problem. Weir was not making the necessary decision. I’m going with McKay and Sheppard as being right on their evaluation of the situation. Weir had gotten locked into quarantine mode and was not acknowledging the more immediate threat.

Sheppard not only should know that, he would know that.

That’s a good part of what makes the episode so interesting to me. What does it take to push him into it. I think the answer for each viewer depends on how they view the individual elements. Spoiler for Miller's Crossing.

Spoiler:

That is why I compare it to MC. I think this is another episode where the writer (Gero) started with the idea of Sheppard taking control from Weir in a very humiliating way, completely out of character, and trying to put together a scenario in which Sheppard felt it was necessary, but left it open to a wide range of interpretations. I think its cool. There is more going on in the episode, but, to me, like MC, the interest lies in Sheppard’s surprising action.

I suppose if you feel strongly that he is wrong and Weir is right then the episode would be annoying.

You're saying Peterson was going to make it without the transporters and there was no one else but Sheppard to stop him.

Peterson had a straight shot to the control room and he had to be relatively close to it. The transporter took him to a populated area that was off his path. It didn’t take him closer to the control room.

There was no one to stop him that was not also in quarantine, if you assume that the suits were all in labs somewhere. The people in suits with McKay were mostly medical personnel and busy. The real problem is not who was available, but convincing Weir to let someone try to stop Peterson before he reached the control room.

I'm saying the ep showed there was adequate time that would have allowed Sheppard to talk Weir through an intercept without him breaking quarantine, especially if the transporters were never turned on.

I don’t think there was time. Despite Sheppard and Teyla chatting while they are suiting up, I think we are meant to believe the threat is imminent. McKay told her to send someone after him. Sheppard told her to send someone after him. Weir was not heeding the advice. Sheppard couldn’t walk her through something she was not willing to do. Peterson was in a direct hallway to the control room. Presumably, he was not looking for people. The transporter was an accidental escape and happened to take him to the mess hall, but not closer to the control room. The transporter made the people in the control room safer, but put the people in the mess hall in danger.

WEIR: Yes, OK, I think we have him. He's trying to make his way back. It should be OK -- Grodin is locking all the doors in the hallway and killing power to the entire section.
McKAY: You need to send someone to stop him.
WEIR: It's under control, Rodney.
McKAY: No, Elizabeth, it's not under control. He knows almost as much about Ancient technology as I do. At the very most, what you're doing will just slow him down.
(Peterson has reached a sealed doorway. He has opened the door panel and is tinkering with the crystals inside. Moments later, the door opens a little. Painfully, he squeezes through the gap and continues on.)
(In the Control Room, Weir and Bates watch as Peterson's signal moves on.)
WEIR: Where does that hallway lead?
GRODIN: Straight here.

I didn't feel the urgency when the two "heroes" out to save the day are calmly putting on suits and chatting.

Yeah, well, they had to get in Teyla’s comment. I can see your point, but I felt there was urgency based on what McKay and Sheppard said to Weir and Sheppard’s actions (circular argument )

I think, in the end, in my universe, Sheppard’s actions have more validity than Weir’s. But his are better defined and meant to contribute to his image. The overall impression is that he disobeyed Weir, but beneath that there is supposed to be a cleverly camouflaged, compelling reason that keeps him the slightly tarnished good guy. How you view Sheppard’s actions depends, in part, on how compelling you find his motivation.

[bluealien]

Hot Zone was the first ep that displayed how different both Sheppard and Weir are and how they handle leadership. This was never really settled and while on the surface they seemed to get on very well, their fundemental way of thinking never really meshed and continued through the seasons, and we saw it come to a head in First Strike.

Weir IMO was wrong for shutting out Sheppard completely and basically telling the military head of Atlantis to stay in his room when they were faced with a huge crisis. She could have at least asked for his opinion on the situation and shared ideas. She could have kept up a com link with him apraising him of the situation and using his experience. Weir was focused only on putting the base into quarantine and not taking into consideration the threat those already effected were to the base. As soon as Peterson escaped she should have sought Sheppards advise.

Sheppard is someone who needs to be in control and he obviously didn't have a great deal of faith in Weir's ability to solve the problem or deal with Peterson so we ended up with a complete lack of communication between the 2 so called leaders of Atlantis.

I hold Weir more to blame than Sheppard. She had no experience in such a situation and yet failed to even ask for help. She had no idea what she was really up against but yet displayed that stuburn streak that is not really befitting a leader. Even when things had escalated to such a serious degree she still hesitated in letting Sheppard take control. If Sheppard had faith in Weir's abilty to control the situation I don't think he would have acted the way he did, but he clearly didnt and I think his despartion caused him to disoby her completely. In the end it was Sheppard who saved the day and from where I stood I didn't see Weir containing the problem at all and I don't think Sheppard did either and this caused him to take the action he did. If that had been a more experienced or military person... like Sam then I don't think we would have ever ended up with the situation that occured between Sheppard and Weir..
But even so Weir should have reprimanded Sheppard more severly after the events. But this never happend and from Hot Zone onward I never really felt that Weir had control over Sheppard and that a lot of the time he just humoured her. I would have preferred a clearer chain of command but this never really happend IMO. Weir said he needed to trust her, but trust is earned and I think their different ideas on how to handle situations still kept them at odds which again came to a head in First Strike.

[expendable_crewman]

I agree, he did it the wrong way. The questions are, I suppose, how critical was the situation and what other options did he have.

So, what does it say about the show (or us, LOL) if we can debate season one in season four????

I don’t think Sheppard is guiltless here. But I don’t think Weir is without guilt, either. I do think that is part of the reason for Teyla’s comment. The pot and kettle thing. Two stubborn (or flawed) people.

I think Elizabeth is clearly wrong in several places.

She should have paged him. Time may have been short, but there was time to try his radio, she could have spared another 20 seconds to page her second in command about a critical situation that he would have had an acute interest in and should have been involved in.

The thing about outbreaks, though, is you stop everyone where they are. The first warning that you have a "quarantine" scenario is your one and only chance to contain an outbreak. You may already be too late but you'll never be "more" late than you are after you know you have a problem and then let people move around. If you let people move around, you may find out you should not have and by then it's too late.

It seemed to me the writer was aware of this, but, more importantly, wrote Weir as though she's had training in quarantine procedure and she (Weir) understood the reason for saying "stay where you are."

She should have let him come to the control room. He responded as soon as he heard the announcement. The situation was not in flux. The quarantine was voluntary. The extra two or three minutes between when he could have come in and when she wouldn’t let him are extremely unlikely to be significant. He is her second in command, not an average resident; his position should be in the control room. He asks to come. He is no where near McKay’s team. She should have let him come or found a way to get him there. (He does obey her.)

I can see if you view the quarantine in terms of what they "later" learned about the vrius, rather than as it would be applied at the onset, when they didn't know what they had, your POV will be different from mine.

But Weir was refusing to take the advice of both the Ancient expert and the security expert. She never made any mention of using Sheppard’s solution. How long does the inexperienced commander get to sit on her hands before someone steps in to save the people she is putting in jeopardy. How far is a ship allowed to sink with it captain bailing water with a teacup, before someone mutinies and breaks out the life boats.

She's not, IMO, refusing to take advice. She does argue about letting Sheppard out of quarantine.

She's about as inexperienced leading as he is, which is to say that by Hot Zone that mantle doesn't fit her anymore. And her Stargate program experience tops his.

She's apparently better versed in how to handle a quarantine, too.

It is unrealistic for lots of reasons. Weir is in command. Weir doesn’t listen to her experts.

Again, I don't see her ignoring so much as troubleshooting except when it came to saying no to Sheppard leaving quarantine. Her leadership style is different than his. He's a bulldozer and she thinks out loud.

I do stand by my feeling that consistent insubordination outside the original character backstory does not serve the Sheppard character.

Best of all, shooting a P-90 into a transporter

LOL.

I suppose if you feel strongly that he is wrong and Weir is right then the episode would be annoying.

The ep wasn't-- Sheppard was. I liked the ep. As far as what was unrealistic, that's how I would see the ep if I read somewhere from a PTB that Sheppard was written as "right" and I was supposed to believe he was correct to do what he did.

But, see, I thought I was supposed to find him abrupt, condescending, and-- oh, yeah-- wrong!!!

It's his brashness that puts Peterson in the dining hall. It's that same quality that puts him in a Jumper with a doomsday device.

My take-away was, love him or hate him in this ep, the guy is committed. You can't say otherwise. He draws a straight line from "think a thing" to "do a thing" so you know he's not lying to you when he tells you (if he tells you ) you're doing a good job.

You also know he approaches his work with deadly earnest. In season one, we were getting to know him. Weir was more (but not much more) of a known item. I may have disagreed with what he did, but I respected the core aspects of his character. If I were Weir, I would have wanted him to manage his brashness better, but (looking at what he did for the city in the end) still been grateful he was on my side.

How you view Sheppard’s actions depends, in part, on how compelling you find his motivation.

Agreed.

[blue-skyz]

So, what does it say about the show (or us, LOL) if we can debate season one in season four????

I think it says that this is a well written and thought provoking episode.
It says that the show is engaging and remains so over a long period of time, at least, for some fans.
What it says about us, I haven’t worked out yet.

Off Topic:

Spoiler:

I had never heard of Stargate when The Hot Zone aired, so it is, probably, more interesting to me still than it is to those who saw it when it was first shown. I have been a Stargate fan for less than two years. I found SG1, decided to buy some of the DVDs and bought S1 of SGA on a whim at the same time. SGA caught my imagination. I still haven’t watched all the SG1 DVDs. (though I have seen almost all of the episodes)

Thanks for the discussion. You really gave me a different perspective to think about. I enjoyed it.

Before we stop I have two observations that really don’t fit anywhere in my arguments, but add a little different perspective. I’m not entirely sure how I feel about either one. Just undeveloped ideas that nudge against my other ideas.


1. Sheppard and Weir are two people so worried about each other that they do foolish things. (Not a shipper.) We have already seen the lengths Sheppard would go to to protect Weir and McKay in The Storm/The Eye. Weir’s actions in keeping him ‘out of the loop,’ were primarily to protect him, because he would have put himself in danger to help people (and it was McKay and Ford that were at risk). He finally acts because he sees an immediate threat to her and the rest of the operations center and wants to protect them.
WEIR: You said so yourself -- you are the ranking military officer. I can't chance you getting infected.
SHEPPARD: I can't chance you getting infected.
In the basic situation, Weir would be right. Best to keep the two leaders in different locations to minimize the chance of them both being infected.

2. Both Weir and Sheppard make similar mistakes.
-- Weir takes away Sheppard’s ability to do his job, by locking him in (or out).
-- Sheppard takes away Weir’s ability to do her job, by undermining her authority.

[blue-skyz]

But even so Weir should have reprimanded Sheppard more severly after the events. But this never happend and from Hot Zone onward I never really felt that Weir had control over Sheppard and that a lot of the time he just humoured her. I would have preferred a clearer chain of command but this never really happend IMO. Weir said he needed to trust her, but trust is earned and I think their different ideas on how to handle situations still kept them at odds which again came to a head in First Strike.

I, of course, mostly agree with you about Hot Zone, but I don’t really see Weir not having control of Sheppard in the later episodes. Quite the contrary, other than HZ, I always thought Sheppard readily deferred to Weir.

Spoiler:

They disagreed in First Strike, but he was obeying military orders not defying her.

Can you site some instances where you think Sheppard did not take Weir seriously as leader?

[bluealien]

I, of course, mostly agree with you about Hot Zone, but I don’t really see Weir not having control of Sheppard in the later episodes. Quite the contrary, other than HZ, I always thought Sheppard readily deferred to Weir. They disagreed in First Strike, but he was obeying military orders not defying her.

Can you site some instances where you think Sheppard did not take Weir seriously as leader?

I'm not saying he openly defied her except for Hot Zone but a lot of the time I felt he was not on the same page as she was. He never seemed all that confident in her decisions and I just got the imression that if he really disagreed with something he would do his own thing again. I think the writers tried to show us that he was confident in her leadership and then for a time in season two had him following all her orders religiously when at times I felt he should be questioning her. So I guess I found them all over the place when it came to the leadership they shared. It wasn't consistant.

In wasn't really tested again until season three and once again they end up on different sides of the table. What would Sheppard have done if Ellis hadn't ordered Weir to go along with the miliary plan, or actually he ordered her not to interfere I guess. If this had just been between Weir and Sheppard and he had disagreed with the path she wanted to take, would he have defied her again. Would it have been the same lack of faith that he showed in Hot Zone... But in First Strike he had Ellis and the Military on his side and therefore didn't have to defy Weir but I wonder how it would have played out if it was just up to him.

[expendable_crewman]

Thanks for the discussion. You really gave me a different perspective to think about. I enjoyed it.

You are welcome. Same here.

For Blue-skyz:

Spoiler:

And thanks for letting me know you had a few more thoughts on Hot Zone. This will probably be my last post for a while, so I'll try to make it interesting!!

Off Topic:

Spoiler:

I had never heard of Stargate when The Hot Zone aired, so it is, probably, more interesting to me still than it is to those who saw it when it was first shown. I have been a Stargate fan for less than two years. I found SG1, decided to buy some of the DVDs and bought S1 of SGA on a whim at the same time. SGA caught my imagination. I still haven’t watched all the SG1 DVDs. (though I have seen almost all of the episodes)

I am the opposite. I watched first-run eps almost all the way through. I used to believe I watched every season. I've done a lot of thinking lately about Stargate, relatively speaking, realized my viewership was spotty in the latter part of season six and most of season seven. I watched Atlantis all the way through. Fell out of my chair when the city rose, figured I was home ... relatively speaking.

Until the hiatus between season 2 and 3, I was a casual viewer. No online stuff, no fics. I did a season 1 marathon and got all worked up over the series. Found GW. So, I've only been in fandom since June 2006. I like seasons 3 and 4 least, since season 1 is my favorite by far, with season 2 coming in second ... and Hot Zone ... to get back on topic ...

I liked Hot Zone when it aired but I wasn't around GW to debate it. Some of the ep's good points: I couldn't wait to find out what race created it. I wanted the expedition to meet other races so bad, I ached for it. To me, that's pure sci-fi. A whole new galaxy, and just Wraith, Iratus, and frightened humans? Okay, so that didn't work out so well ...

Before we stop I have two observations that really don’t fit anywhere in my arguments, but add a little different perspective. I’m not entirely sure how I feel about either one. Just undeveloped ideas that nudge against my other ideas.

Okay.

Sheppard and Weir are two people so worried about each other that they do foolish things. (Not a shipper.) We have already seen the lengths Sheppard would go to to protect Weir and McKay in The Storm/The Eye. Weir’s actions in keeping him ‘out of the loop,’ were primarily to protect him, because he would have put himself in danger to help people (and it was McKay and Ford that were at risk). He finally acts because he sees an immediate threat to her and the rest of the operations center and wants to protect them.

As many times as I've watched Hot Zone, I never picked up on this.

It's interesting (and troubling) that he might worry about her and at the same time undermine her authority on city-wide comm.

One of the more telling exchanges in the ep went sort of this way: she told him it was a medical situation and he said something like let's agree to disagree, meaning he was taking over.

In a physical contest between civilians and military, who wins?

I got a chill when he said that.

I needed that conflict between them resolved and it wasn't, so I think a part of me has kind of always been a bit disgruntled about the lack of resolution.

The writers, sometimes, grrr. I think the writers underestimate viewers. I know some viewers get so starved for meaningful interaction between regular cast that they settle for whatever scraps they're fed, but not everyone wants to get a headache or re-watch a gazillion times to get a clue. Me, I wish there was decent resolution, two characters who maybe never agree who was right, who was wrong, but they can see the other person's POV because they have respect for each other. I waited for a couple eps, gave up. Didn't want to grow gray waiting for something the writers should have finished right then and there.

One last thing on Sheppard's assuming command of both the city and the situation while outside the control room (where the person in charge controls the scene) and while essentially in the field:

Are you aware that after 9/11, emergency response personnel in all disciplines, as well as hospitals and anyone who could possibly have a major incident on their campus were told to learn the same command system? A firefighter helping out Town A and a police officer helping at a major disaster from Town H both can work together and use the same structure of command. This was a lesson of September 11, 2001. Mish-mash systems and conflict in an emergency can kill. It's not realistic Sheppard would muddle the chain of command like he did in Hot Zone.

It's not clear if the writers knew this.

At the time, I thought the writers did. (Today, I'm not so sure, lol.) Landry (I'm shooting ahead to Intruder now) was fine with replacing Sheppard ... and because of the Hot Zone mission report, he was also okay kicking Sheppard off the expedition.

If you look at subsequent seasons, once Atlantis has a ZPM, Sheppard is only a "phone call" away from his bosses on Earth. This is important because he has these higher-ups he must answer to, guys who aren't so easy to push around, and he's got a chain of command that he can't (ha-ha!) break, at least not without repercussions (again, ha-ha). I bet that in Hot Zone, he wasn't sweating getting thrown in the brig, that's for sure. In subsequent seasons, you also see a cleaner distinction between his role and Weir's.

Oh, I forgot this part ... sorry, I'm rambling because I'm running, but you can email if you want ...

Last part, I promise. I didn't see Weir as unable to handle the situation. Some viewers looked at her and saw negotiator and not much else. I saw the former head of the Stargate Program (SG1, I forget what season) appointed by my favorite US President. I saw the head of the Atlantis project, appointed by General O'Neill. We never really get her CV. She was chosen by the top guy in the country to run a space exploration program that starts with a gigantic ring that can blow apart the planet. O'Neill knew the SGC in and out and he selected her to lead an expedition to a new galaxy. Negotiation expertise is a nice trait to bring to the table when heading to far away places, but if negotiating was all she was good for, then she could have just been another civilian on the team.

She knows how to handle an outbreak situation. Lol, it's gotta be in the SOP. (Wouldn't you just love to get hold of the Stargate SOP?) Anyway, her leadership style is just different from Sheppard's.

Very nice discussion.

[blue-skyz]

Spoilers through Season 3 (First Strike)

Spoiler:

I just got the imression that if he really disagreed with something he would do his own thing again.

And he did in The Return, it just wasn’t Weir that he disobeyed. (Got to wonder about the sense of someone who disobeys a two star general.) But that’s Sheppard’s persona: damn the consequences, do what’s ‘right;’ do what will save people. I always try to point out that O’Neill (and Carter) have disobeyed orders, too. But it’s part of Sheppard’s identity.

It makes the future interesting. Who will he disobey the next time? Who will he be trying to save?

In wasn't really tested again until season three and once again they end up on different sides of the table. What would Sheppard have done if Ellis hadn't ordered Weir to go along with the miliary plan, or actually he ordered her not to interfere I guess. If this had just been between Weir and Sheppard and he had disagreed with the path she wanted to take, would he have defied her again. Would it have been the same lack of faith that he showed in Hot Zone... But in First Strike he had Ellis and the Military on his side and therefore didn't have to defy Weir but I wonder how it would have played out if it was just up to him.

I don’t think of FS as being about Sheppard and Weir, but about the military(Ellis) and Weir.
Ellis had his orders. He wanted some help from Atlantis, but the strike was a military action and did not need to be sanctioned by Atlantis or Weir. Weir tried to get it stopped, without success.

Sheppard and McKay both believed the strike wouldn’t be effective enough, but that it would prevent the replicators from finishing the current ships and heading to Earth, giving them time to finish the PWARW (?) or find another solution.

Sheppard and Weir clearly disagree, but there is no possibility of Sheppard acting on his own. He is Ellis’ subordinate puppy dog in FS. It is unclear to me whether Weir opposes any military action or she is just pissed off that she was not included in the military decision.

[bluealien]

Spoilers through Season 3 (First Strike)

Spoiler:

And he did in The Return, it just wasn’t Weir that he disobeyed. (Got to wonder about the sense of someone who disobeys a two star general.) But that’s Sheppard’s persona: damn the consequences, do what’s ‘right;’ do what will save people. I always try to point out that O’Neill (and Carter) have disobeyed orders, too. But it’s part of Sheppard’s identity.

It makes the future interesting. Who will he disobey the next time? Who will he be trying to save?

I don’t think of FS as being about Sheppard and Weir, but about the military(Ellis) and Weir.
Ellis had his orders. He wanted some help from Atlantis, but the strike was a military action and did not need to be sanctioned by Atlantis or Weir. Weir tried to get it stopped, without success.

Sheppard and McKay both believed the strike wouldn’t be effective enough, but that it would prevent the replicators from finishing the current ships and heading to Earth, giving them time to finish the PWARW (?) or find another solution.

Sheppard and Weir clearly disagree, but there is no possibility of Sheppard acting on his own. He is Ellis’ subordinate puppy dog in FS. It is unclear to me whether Weir opposes any military action or she is just pissed off that she was not included in the military decision.

Spoiler:

I think First Strike was about Weir and Sheppard and how different they were, and we don't know whether Sheppard wouldn't have acted on his own. We know he will act on his own if he thinks Atlantis or his friends are in danger. Yes he disobyed Landry to protect Atlantis, but I would have expected the leaders of Atlantis to be in agreement over the defense of the city and it's occupants, but they weren't. We have seen on various occasions if Sheppard thinks that Altantis or Earth are in danger he will do what he thinks is right.


And if it had been up to Weir to make the decisions in First Strike without the arrival of the military, I think there is a possibility that Sheppard would have defied her again. He was all for military action and she wanted to negotiate. He was completely convinced that the Asurans were building their fleet to attack Earth and yet she didn't see the same threat. I was surprised at Weirs actions though in FS as this was the woman who had ordered them distroyed in Progeny and stormed away from Oberoth, but now wants to negotiate. If she was against military action just because she wasn't consulted than that doesn't paint her in a very good light. Millions of people's lives were in danger and she was annoyed that she wasnt consulted.

Sheppard doesn't defy orders lighly and even though he has done it in the past, I really think it would have to be somthing really big before he would take such an action again.. as in the possible distruction of Atlantis by Landry.

But Weir and Sheppard werent of the same minds when it came to the protection and safety of Atlantis and to me this cannot be good if 2 leaders disagree. I think they were too different and again I always got the impression that Sheppard never really had the faith in Weir that he should have had. But then I really couldnt blame him because Weir's leadership never really instilled a lot of faith or confidence in me either, irrespective of how nice she was or how well they got on as friends. I didnt feel she was up to the job and she was in over her head, and I got the impression that Sheppard wasn't as confident about her decisions or leadership either. Because as soon as they faced a major threat they would be on different sides, just as they were in Hot Zone.

[blue-skyz]

Spoilers through Season 3 (First Strike)

Spoiler:

If she was against military action just because she wasn't consulted than that doesn't paint her in a very good light. Millions of people's lives were in danger and she was annoyed that she wasnt consulted.

I don’t think FS paints Weir in a good light and I don’t think it was meant to. I think it was meant to be her exit episode as Weir, the leader. It told us that she could never stay on with the military calling the shots. So, even if she had recovered, she would have returned to Earth.

I think they were too different and again I always got the impression that Sheppard never really had the faith in Weir that he should have had. But then I really couldnt blame him because Weir's leadership never really instilled a lot of faith or confidence in me

Weir didn’t instill confidence in me, either, except in a few episodes. FS wasn’t one of them.

I thought Sheppard did trust Weir for the most part (Not that that would have stopped him in extreme circumstances). When I watch them again, I’ll pay closer attention.

We know he will act on his own if he thinks Atlantis or his friends are in danger.

Yes and we believe, as we are intended to, that he is right to do so.

[blue-skyz]

It's interesting (and troubling) that he might worry about her and at the same time undermine her authority on city-wide comm.

I never thought they were on city wide. Gosh, that would be awful. Sheppard had Teyla’s radio, so I thought they were talking through it. Of course, their radios are magic, tap it and you talk to whoever you’re thinking about. (I might buy that if they were made by the Ancients. ) He would have thought saving her life was more important than respecting her authority.

One of the more telling exchanges in the ep went sort of this way: she told him it was a medical situation and he said something like let's agree to disagree, meaning he was taking over.

Meaning he saw more to it. I took that to mean that he was calling it as a military/security situation. The first time I saw it, that seemed perfectly reasonable to me, not how he had to do it, but that he could and would do it. Then in their talk at the end, Weir says that she gets to decide what is and isn’t a military situation. Which, at the time (and now too, to a lesser extent) I found strange. I do, however, understand the reasoning.

I never thought of him as taking command away from her. She locked him in, he thought the danger was great enough that he used his military authority to override her and get out. He didn’t take command of the city. He wouldn’t have wanted it and he was in no position to do it.

I needed that conflict between them resolved and it wasn't, so I think a part of me has kind of always been a bit disgruntled about the lack of resolution.
Me, I wish there was decent resolution, two characters who maybe never agree who was right, who was wrong, but they can see the other person's POV because they have respect for each other. I waited for a couple eps, gave up. Didn't want to grow gray waiting for something the writers should have finished right then and there.

They do leave it unfinished. Weir says it can’t happen again and Sheppard says sometimes he sees things differently and that’s all we get. I wanted desperately for Weir to admit that she shared some of the responsibility for what happened. Or like you say, some decent resolution, some discussion between them that respected each other’s view of the situation. All we get is the report Weir writes about Sheppard disobeying her, Sheppard standing up to Everet to keep her in the loop, and Weir going to the wall to get Sheppard promoted and made military commander of Atlantis. Some resolution, but not satisfying.

Of course, we wouldn’t still be talking about it if they had told us what to believe.

I didn't see Weir as unable to handle the situation.

Weir was brought in to counterbalance the military presence and she did have a lot of support. She didn’t have a lot of experience in the job she ended up in, though, IMO. There are episodes where I think she does very well, but I did come to think that she was wrong for the job.

In subsequent seasons, you also see a cleaner distinction between his role and Weir's.

He was relegated to Weir’s errant underling far too often. The commander seldom shown in command. I like Sheppard so much better now.

[GatetheWay]

Did anyone else think the measures the city took in this episode make a whole lot more sense than they did in Atlantis' latest episode? For one the city didn't try to kill everyone and let those who were safe from infection be able to help the infected and it didn't sufficated eveyone.

[Butlersgate]

Did anyone else think the measures the city took in this episode make a whole lot more sense than they did in Atlantis' latest episode? For one the city didn't try to kill everyone and let those who were safe from infection be able to help the infected and it didn't sufficated eveyone.

if you are reffering to the episode "quarantine"

Spoiler:

then the city only went crazy because of Mckay messing with the systems AND some interference from the planets atmosphere or something i can't remember what exactly

but this episode is great and Mckay shows leadership abilites in it which is rare.