The Defiant One (112)

[Easter Lily]

If you step back a couple of steps and take a look, Sheppard is a villian.

The latest case in point is that he killed off a bunch of those glowing beings while killing the Wraith. Those were intelligent life forms. Maybe they weren't as evolved as humans maybe they were, we don't know. Let's say they were on the intelligence level of something like dogs. What Sheppard did was the same as sticking a milkbone in the pants of a bad guy, sending a few dozen puppies after it to 'distract' the bad guy and then blew them all up. They just wanted something to eat and he killed them. That's not the actions of a nice guy, no matter what the situation.

That brings Shep's kill count up to what...over 100 dead in 2 episodes?

D

I can only imagine that you're playing Devil's Advocate here... and you're merely attempting to "stir the pot"... frankly speaking, if you are really that opposed to violence, what in the world are you doing watching sci-fi?!
On the off-chance that you're really serious, let me just say that it is easy for us to moralize and sit in judgement of someone who has to make life and death decisions when we are sitting in the comfort of our lounge chairs with all of life's luxuries at our finger tips... like everyone else has said, you've certainly jumped to a lot of conclusions about a lot of things...
This reminds me of a dialogue that I had with someone on another forum (during the blackout) about whether the Wraith had the right to exist and that it wasn't their fault that they needed sustenance by feeding on others etc etc... I know the Wraith are hungry but trust me... I'm not going to stand around for them to feed on me just because I might feel a little sorry that they need food... if I have the ability to fight back, I would. That's what makes Gaul's decision so compelling because I believe that it indirectly sheds light on what Sheppard did with regards to Sumner.

I don't think somehow that we're suppose to see Sheppard as a villain in all of this... he did what he had to survive... The best thing I can say is that you've seriously misunderstood the intention of the episode or perhaps you should wait till you've seen The Seige to have a better idea of Sheppard's character.

Finally, SG-1's been blowing Jaffa ships and causing problems on different planets for the last 8 years... I don't see anyone calling Jack a villian... Want to play the numbers game? Jack'll beat Sheppard hands down...

[SeaBee]

A good ep.

Nice to see McKay getting into the firefight, proving that he's not just a geek.

Shep definately needs to get himself some more body armour, though. He's getting knocked about way too much.

[SGLAB]

I liked this episode. While it was obvious Gaul and Abrams were red shirts, their deaths had an impact on the main characters.

Most red shirts on other shows are there just to be killed and the main characters seem to brush the deaths off like they were excess baggage.

Gaul's death had a real impact on Mckay and added to his development as a character and I liked that.

[Daniel's_twin]

I liked this episode. While it was obvious Gaul and Abrams were red shirts, their deaths had an impact on the main characters.

Most red shirts on other shows are there just to be killed and the main characters seem to brush the deaths off like they were excess baggage.

Gaul's death had a real impact on Mckay and added to his development as a character and I liked that.

My family usually calls characters that are just there to be killed the "expendible crewmen". In a spoof of Star Trek TOS, they made fun of the fact that almost every episode had someone there just to croak.

[SGLAB]

My family usually calls characters that are just there to be killed the "expendible crewmen". In a spoof of Star Trek TOS, they made fun of the fact that almost every episode had someone there just to croak.

Exactly. Star Trek TOS was just what I was thinking of when I posted before. It was nice to see their deaths could have some purpose other than "expendible crewmen" as you said. And that their deaths mattered.

[watcher652]

If you step back a couple of steps and take a look, Sheppard is a villian.

The latest case in point is that he killed off a bunch of those glowing beings while killing the Wraith. Those were intelligent life forms. Maybe they weren't as evolved as humans maybe they were, we don't know. Let's say they were on the intelligence level of something like dogs. What Sheppard did was the same as sticking a milkbone in the pants of a bad guy, sending a few dozen puppies after it to 'distract' the bad guy and then blew them all up. They just wanted something to eat and he killed them. That's not the actions of a nice guy, no matter what the situation.

That brings Shep's kill count up to what...over 100 dead in 2 episodes?

D

I'm surprised to see that someone thinks the glowy bugs are intelligent life forms. I don't see any indication that they are any more intelligent than bees. Not that there should be wanton killing of bees, but I'm glad Sheppard chose to save McKay and himself instead.

Another post suggests they are like some bug from SG1. I'm not familiar with those bugs, but I don't think they're the same. I think they were made glowy so we could see them in the bright sun, and to show that they give off some kind of energy. Energy that the Wraith can use since he seemed rather distracted by them when they appear.

There are only so many ways a glowy bug can glow.

And why say the glowy bugs are as intelligent as a dog? That's not indicated anywhere in the story. The bugs pretty much acted just like bugs.

Wow, Sheppard is a villian? What show is that? I just don't see it. It doesn't seem that the rest of the Atlantis expedition sees it either.

[Sela]

OMG - LOL!!! At the beginning, when Sheppard and the guys are on the planet and walking away from the ship, "Sheppard says, "Everyone remember where we parked." and the cloaking engaged. That shot was straight out of Star Trek: The Voyage Home and that was the very line that Kirk used.

I missed it before. That was great!!!

I had caught the other line about the ship before but I must have been distracted during the first part the first time it aired.

[Atteria]

OMG - LOL!!! At the beginning, when Sheppard and the guys are on the planet and walking away from the ship, "Sheppard says, "Everyone remember where we parked." and the cloaking engaged. That shot was straight out of Star Trek: The Voyage Home and that was the very line that Kirk used.

I missed it before. That was great!!!

I had caught the other line about the ship before but I must have been distracted during the first part the first time it aired.

That's exactly why I feel like I HAVE to watch each episode more than once, because I really miss alot. Last time I watched The Defiant One, I was very distracted by other things going on, and I missed the the fact the actor that played Dr. Brendan Gaul also played the archeologist Nyan, from SG-1, season 3.

And I LOVED when Shep said that line. It was great!

Overall, I enjoyed this episode more the second time around.

[PsychoPenguin]

Newbie here. I just saw this episode for the first time tonight, and I have to say I really enjoyed it! I think it's primarily because, despite the fact that the audience knows the regular characters *have* to survive the ep, the writers/actors/director still manage to create a real sense of horror and suspense in this story. I think this can primarily be attributed to the fact someone mentioned earlier: the deaths may have been of "expendable characters," but they weren't allowed to be dismissed or brushed off that easily, and taken into consideration with the other episodes I've seen, I think this "refusal to dismiss" is a real strength of the show. Every act of violence, every bad situation, every death serves as an opportunity for the main characters to display how they feel about the desperate situation they're in. And these actors do that so well! Even when they aren't given the lines, you can see it in their eyes. I love that!

I wasn't able to get into these shows during the school year, but now that I'm off for a little while, I'm trying to see how I feel about the "New Friday Night Lineup." Thus far, "Atlantis" eps can vary from a rocking action show to an excellent horror movie, followed nicely by the gritty, realistic serial drama that is BSG. "SG1," I have to admit, isn't doing much for me (I carried on a long conversation with my hubby during tonight's ep and neither one of us felt like we missed anything), but I'm going to wait and see what season nine brings.

Again, fantastic episode. Although when John just stood there after stabbing the wraith that time and immediately got the crap knocked out of him, my Air Force OSI husband ended up saying, "Yeah. He fights like a pilot." I just patted him on the knee and said, "Realism, baby. Realism."

P.S. I forgot to mention how much I loved the "Den Mother/Schoolboys" dynamic of the interchange between Weir and Shep and McKay at the beginning of the ep. I played poker with a table full of Navy, Air Force, and USMC guys last night (I came in third; hubby was the third person knocked out--Heh!), and that's exactly the way I feel sometimes. Although that doesn't keep me from taking their money. No matter how cute they are!

[Panther]

Shep displayed some nice tactical thought in that episode (finally!!!). Still there's always ways to nitpick. He was a moron for not keeping a steady rate of fire up when the wraith guy was down to keep him on the defensive, before shoving a Wraith Grenade sandwhich into his mouth...

[Major Tyler]

Shep displayed some nice tactical thought in that episode (finally!!!). Still there's always ways to nitpick. He was a moron for not keeping a steady rate of fire up when the wraith guy was down to keep him on the defensive, before shoving a Wraith Grenade sandwhich into his mouth...

Hard to maintain a steady rate of fire when you've got limited ammunition. Seems the wiser course would be to preserve what ammo you have for when you really need it.

What would have been really smart is if they carried the FN 5-7 pistol as a sidearm rather than a Beretta. That way he could use the 5.7 mm rounds from his damaged P90 (and from any P90 magazines he had left) to reload his pistol. It's tactically ridiculous to carry a sidearm that requires a different round than your primary weapon.

[Panther]

Steady doesn't mean fully automatic. Tap out quick shots in semi-automatic mode or regular bursts. Gotta wonder though how the wraith figured out that on a beretta, you a) remove the saftey catch b)rake the slide (you don't store a gun loaded, only carry one) c)then pull the trigger. I'd've through that he would have removed the slide catch, and stripped the damn thing first.

Also, not totally rediculous. One can carry an MP5 but have 1911 instead...

[SGRanger06]

That'd would of been so funny he picks it up, then the gun falls apart "do'h!" lol.

[SGalisa]

Originally posted by Panther:
Shep displayed some nice tactical thought in that episode (finally!!!). Still there's always ways to nitpick. He was a moron for not keeping a steady rate of fire up when the wraith guy was down to keep him on the defensive, before shoving a Wraith Grenade sandwhich into his mouth...

Sounds like this is more of an action driven solution, than a character based one (which is also atypical of most playstation/x-box, etc. games).

Question: is Atlantis
1) a character driven series, or
2) action, or
3) both (when needed to be)?

I thought suggestion # 3 mostly applied (to both Atlantis and SG-1).
========

By now, I'm getting the impression most of the blow it up now, etc. (Panther's) ideas are for quick, fast endings to *any* crisis (e.g. the Storm). That's also a fast way to kill a plot, as well, unless there's something better and more "A-maz-ing" for an encore during the plot's peak (that is: the most critical moment in the story). Waste all the ammo at once, and then run for your life when out of options. Those are Not good military tactics - especially when the enemy has the greater advantages.

Shep was locked out of the puddle jumper.
He had no way of restocking up on supplies, ammo AND food.
He had no idea if there was just one wraith.
He needed a back-up plan for the long haul, just in case...

So, if Sheppard wasted all his ammo in the beginning, especially when the Wraith popped back up (healed super fast), what happens when Mr. Wraith pretends to play dead, and grabs Shep at the worst moment (after setting the bomb to start ticking). Shep can't escape... or is that the whole *purpose* of these (eeeeevil) type of thoughts... to kill off Shep?!

Originally posted by Major Tyler:
It's tactically ridiculous to carry a sidearm that requires a different round than your primary weapon.

awww, but where would the *fun* / *anticipation* be in suspenseful timing, if he didn't have to look for reloading one weapon or the other?

[Panther]

Sounds like this is more of an action driven solution...

What hell do you think is the military about?
You find the most effecient and quick solution to the problem.
Shep is supposed to be a military (granted a rotorhead) man. He should think like that. It just means the writers will have to be a little more creative... maybe the wraith ambushed him rather than Sheppard. I'd believe that, as he has no patrolling or counter-ambush training...