John Sheppard Whump

[Steve Austin]

Okay, going off on a tangent here, but I was thinking about the scene where everyone was saying their goodbyes...except Shep of course, bless him!

I can't believe Elizabeth did a video to Simon. Putting myself in his place, I would have been furious and incredibly hurt that she couldn't spare me a few moments in person to deliver such life changing news. Other people made time for their families, so wasn't she being just a bit selfish? I know she would have been incredible busy, but even a phone call would have been better than that!

*Jumps off soap box*

Yeah! what kind of person would do that to her/his companyon! I agree with you, that was not just selfish but evil!

I can just imagine Sheppard always having a book or magazines to read while playing taxi driver!



Weir said she'd been chosing expedition members for some time. Would she take second best? I think, maybe. She would also have an eye for people that could work well together. There may have been individuals that might not have been the very top of their field, but would have been more than capable and willing to go. There would have been egos and some squirrelliness, but that comes with the territory of extreme intelligence, i suppose.

Yep! I suposse the SGC or IOA put limits to the personel Weir choose, after all they did not let her to take Daniel with her, I know it was Jack who wouldn't let her but I take that as a hint...
EDITED
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Spoiler:

There is a Mex vs USA futbol game (the final of the golden cup or something like that)on TV right now...Hubby likes to watch futbol...I prefer baseball...anyways...good luck fellow americans!

[Lorr]

Yikes, I started a data backup. I need to go for a little while so that my email can get backed up, too. See you later!

[shepsgirl72]

Hi SA. Glad you can join in the fun.

I'm guessing the point was she wanted to tell him the truth... it would have been really hard to lie to his face in person and make up some excuse why she was leaving... and she could never have told him the real reason *before* she left... there'd have been too many questions. Yeah, it was a bit harsh to send the video but I'm guessing she didn't have much choice... it was that or lie to his face.

I guess it depends how you interpret the order of things. The way it plays out in the order of events in the show, it looks like he's watching it while everyone else is saying goodbyes in person, in which case, I think if he'd been granted clearance she could have at least called if he was too far away to see in person. If you interpret it that he's watching it after they've left, then fair enough.

Oh, and Redhooks, good point about the gate travel. I actually think your argument stands for the video scene with Elizabeth too. It may have been a vehicle for getting information across to viewers who were 'newbies' to the Stargate format. For me, it just seemed a bit distant compared to the other goodbyes.

I'm also not sure why Simon got clearance for that info when others didn't. I know Elizabeth was encouraging him to apply to join the programme later in the series, but if he hadn't been part of it at this point, why would she be allowed to tell him what was going on when the Stargate was still such a highly classified project?

I know, I'm nit-picking again, but I'm hoping someone can answer all my dumb questions!

[Alipeeps]

I kind of had the feeling she couldn't say anything in case they didn't actually go. If they hadn't been able to set up the ZPM, get a lock on the coordinates or find a viable atmosphere, they wouldn't have gone. If she had told Simon, the endless waiting to try to go again, knowing what she was in to and all the rest of it would've been very difficult to deal with.

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant - only you expressed it better!

Until they got the lock, they didn't know it was going to even work so she couldn't tell Simon the truth face to face... and what else could she tell him? I mean, what else did everyone else tell their friends and family? They didn't tell them they were going away on a possibly one way trip, did they? They made up some excuse. Ford's family thought he was being posted abroad somewhere. The only thing Elizabeth did different is that she got permission to let Simon know, after the fact, where she'd gone and that she might not be coming back. The others never even got to tell their families even that much. I'm guessing if they had never come back/been heard from again, Simon would have at least had that comfort of knowing what had happened... everyone else's friends and family would have just never known that had happened to their loved ones and why they never came back.

[Steve Austin]

Yikes, I started a data backup. I need to go for a little while so that my email can get backed up, too. See you later!

Oki doki, see you later!

[Alipeeps]

Hi SAI guess it depends how you interpret the order of things. The way it plays out in the order of events in the show, it looks like he's watching it while everyone else is saying goodbyes in person, in which case, I think if he'd been granted clearance she could have at least called if he was too far away to see in person. If you interpret it that he's watching it after they've left, then fair enough.

Well I haven't had chance to rewatch the ep yet but my understanding of it whenever I've watched it before was that he was watching the video after Elizabeth had already told him goodbye (I think she mentions in the video some excuse she had given him about where she was going). When he tries to call her phone he gets a "not in range" message which I assume to mean either that they've already left or that she's by this point already in the SGC prepping to leave.

I'm also not sure why Simon got clearance for that info when others didn't. I know Elizabeth was encouraging him to apply to join the programme later in the series, but if he hadn't been part of it at this point, why would she be allowed to tell him what was going on when the Stargate was still such a highly classified project?

Well, she was I guess the most senior-ranking member of the expedition, being the expedition leader, and she also had the support of the president so I guess she had some serious strings to be able to pull.

[Vecturist]

I can just imagine Sheppard always having a book or magazines to read while playing taxi driver!



Weir said she'd been chosing expedition members for some time. Would she take second best? I think, maybe. She would also have an eye for people that could work well together. There may have been individuals that might not have been the very top of their field, but would have been more than capable and willing to go. There would have been egos and some squirrelliness, but that comes with the territory of extreme intelligence, i suppose.

Hee!! Well given some of the personalities in my bio dept., that's easier said than done as far as getting people who could play nicely with others.

I'm guessing Weir started with a fairly large pool of people - there are probably some who wouldn't make the cut for medical reasons (such as an insulin-dependent diabetic) and I'm sure some people would say 'no' given family or personal ties and the possibility of a one way trip. (And I wonder why they brought only Heightmeyer given some potential psychological profiles.)

[shepsgirl72]

Well I haven't had chance to rewatch the ep yet but my understanding of it whenever I've watched it before was that he was watching the video after Elizabeth had already told him goodbye (I think she mentions in the video some excuse she had given him about where she was going). When he tries to call her phone he gets a "not in range" message which I assume to mean either that they've already left or that she's by this point already in the SGC prepping to leave.



Well, she was I guess the most senior-ranking member of the expedition, being the expedition leader, and she also had the support of the president so I guess she had some serious strings to be able to pull.

Yes, good points about not knowing if they were going until they had a lock and the phone being out of range. I hadn't thought about those facts, but that does suggest she's already gone and they play the video out of sequence in the episode.

I'm still thinking telling Simon is dodgy! There are more important people than her in possession of knowledge of the Stargate and Atlantis who presumably aren't allowed to tell others. Perhaps its supposed to be because of the risk she might not return? Even so, people with dangerous missions they might not return from face that danger every time they go to work, but they're not allowed to tell others what they do. I'm still inclined to believe the video is more of a vehicle for getting information across to viewers than something she should really be allowed to do but I'm not an expert in the field of classified projects...believe it or not!

[Steve Austin]

Hi SA. Glad you can join in the fun.

I'm also not sure why Simon got clearance for that info when others didn't. I know Elizabeth was encouraging him to apply to join the programme later in the series, but if he hadn't been part of it at this point, why would she be allowed to tell him what was going on when the Stargate was still such a highly classified project?

I believe the clearance had something to do with Elizabeth's personal relation with the president.

p.s.
no dumb questions here right?

[Alipeeps]

I'm still thinking telling Simon is dodgy! There are more important people than her in possession of knowledge of the Stargate and Atlantis who presumably aren't allowed to tell others. Perhaps its supposed to be because of the risk she might not return? Even so, people with dangerous missions they might not return from face that danger every time they go to work, but they're not allowed to tell others what they do. I'm still inclined to believe the video is more of a vehicle for getting information across to viewers than something she should really be allowed to do but I'm not an expert in the field of classified projects...believe it or not!

Yeah, you do have to remember with these discussions that there's always an element of "plot device" to allow for.

I'm pretty sure (again not rewatched the ep recently) that she mentions in the vid that if Simon is watching it, it's because the President has given him special permission to be informed? Dunno if you watched the SG1 that originally introduced the character of Weir? She was hand-picked by the President to take over the running of the SGC so she has quite a bit of influence with folks high-up.

[shepsgirl72]

I believe the clearance had something to do with Elizabeth's personal relation with the president.

p.s.
no dumb questions here right?

Yeah, you do have to remember with these discussions that there's always an element of "plot device" to allow for.

I'm pretty sure (again not rewatched the ep recently) that she mentions in the vid that if Simon is watching it, it's because the President has given him special permission to be informed? Dunno if you watched the SG1 that originally introduced the character of Weir? She was hand-picked by the President to take over the running of the SGC so she has quite a bit of influence with folks high-up.

Oh yes...it's the old 'it's not what you know, but who you know'. That never backfires. Good job Simon didn't take umbrage and sell his story to the New York Times!

I do remember Weir from SG-1...she looked a lot different back then. She obviously opted for the taller thinner more brunette look for Atlantis...new start and all that.

[Pocus]

Okay, going off on a tangent here, but I was thinking about the scene where everyone was saying their goodbyes...except Shep of course, bless him!

I can't believe Elizabeth did a video to Simon. Putting myself in his place, I would have been furious and incredibly hurt that she couldn't spare me a few moments in person to deliver such life changing news. Other people made time for their families, so wasn't she being just a bit selfish? I know she would have been incredible busy, but even a phone call would have been better than that!

*Jumps off soap box*

I do think that they wrote Elizabeth's character very harshly in this ep. She didn't come across as a warm and understanding leader, but someone who had a job to do and nothing was going to get in her way. She was extremely excited about all of this, as she should have been, but to me she just seemed a little extra hard.

Of course you can join in, SA! The more, the merrier! And, whumpier!



I kind of had the feeling she couldn't say anything in case they didn't actually go. If they hadn't been able to set up the ZPM, get a lock on the coordinates or find a viable atmosphere, they wouldn't have gone. If she had told Simon, the endless waiting to try to go again, knowing what she was in to and all the rest of it would've been very difficult to deal with.

Now that was something I hadn't thought of. Good points.

Redhooks had a great point about the trip through being a plot device for new people. Thanks!

I did a rewatch and watched Sheppard and Teyla running from the beam and now I think that Sheppard knew it was coming and jumped to the side. Teyla tried to veer off but didn't make it. In slow mo I did not see her touch him at all. *here's hoping for a skinned knee from the landing* Gotta keep the whump talk in to stay on topic.

As for Sumner's tag, I did see Ford lean over and put his hand down. I do believe he took the tags and put them in his pocket.

Getting ready to post the discussion questions that were sent to me and a few I came up with. Hopefully the thunderstorm just starting won't knock my electric out.

[Steve Austin]

I do remember Weir from SG-1...she looked a lot different back then. She obviously opted for the taller thinner more brunette look for Atlantis...new start and all that.

Actually, she kept changing her look over the seasons...I always though it was a difficult hair to make her look good...

So, you have been discussing from a couple of days before, and I don't know if this has come to the table already...sorry if I repeat....but what I've always loved of this ep is how they make you think Shep is someone so, so special, the key of ancient technology, the one person who really does it naturally. In that sense, I'd have like to see him turno on the chair as soon as he step into it, that would have been more amazing!

And it was just a shame how they appear to forget about it right after that ep....

[Pocus]

Discussion Questions for Rising Rewatch

1 and 2 are from Lorr. 3,4,5 and 6 are from Shepsgirl. 7,8, 9 are from me.


1. I always had the impression that the city came to life only because Shep came through the Gate. Sumner, Weir and two security teams were there already, but only the Gate was lit until Shep enters, then things start to come on. It's like he's the key that allows the city to boot up. Am I the only one to think that?

2. I think that it is actually Sumner revealing, even though unwillingly, the existence of earth and the more than millions of humans that wakens the Wraith. Sheppard killing the Keeper may have disturbed the Hive they were on, would she have sent a signal for all Hives to wake up unless she was certain there was sufficient food for them? She must have known it was too soon for there to be enough in Pegasus. Sheppard bearing some of the responsibility is fine, but not all of it.

I know the spins that came later on both of these points may take a different viewpoint, but considering the change in attitude by TPTB towards the characters, I am not surprised. I have my viewpoint because of what was presented in the episodes.


3. In the scene in the helicopter when the Ancient drone is chasing them, was the fact that Sheppard did the exact opposite of O'Neill's instructions each time it buzzed them an attempt to show that he doesn't always follow orders, that he is an even better pilot than O'Neill, or foreshadowing that he has a strong intuitive connection with Ancient technology because of his Ancient gene?

4. The scene in the abandoned city where Sheppard find's Teyla's necklace and puts it on her seems a deliberate hint at shipping. Why do people think this wasn't really taken any further until much later in the show?

5. The Wraith Caretaker seems to die quite easily at the end considering the fact she has fed on two life forces. Is it just convenient to the story, or do people feel it was insinuated in her words that she sacrifices herself because it will wake the others?

6. The obvious question, where did you feel there were missed opportunities for whump?

7. Why do you think Elizabeth sent Sheppard on that first mission through the Gate. He was a relative unknown and she knew he had problems with authority.

8. Sumner seemed to give up his talks with the Athosians very quickly. Why do you think he let Sheppard take over? He had already said he didn't trust him.

9. What did you like about the Wraith the most?

[Ruffles]

I've always felt that the implication is that some time has passed between them finding Sheppard in the chair and that scene with Weir and O'Neill. In fact, it must have, as Weir mentions that she's already asked Sheppard to join the Atlantis mission. So there's a whole missing scene there - or several scenes - with the team realising/discussing Sheppard's gene ability, Weir checking out this random stranger who has activated the chair and looking into who he is and asking him to join the mission and being turned down, leading her to then ask O'Neill to intervene.

That's the way I interpreted it as well.

I agree there's a suggestion that a conversation took place between Sheppard and Weir. I think my gripe is that it literally could have been 5 or 10 minutes and the writers don't give us any clues. Sheppard could literally have performed a few more tricks to prove his skills weren't just a fluke, Weir could have asked him to join her team, he could have been less than enthusiastic leading Weir to ask O'Neill to influence him, and that could have been the extent of it. I think the scene got a bit rushed for convenience of moving things along, but better scripting would have made it clear how she got the information. I know I'm just being nit-picky, but getting hold of someone's personnel record and studying it takes time and we don't get a clear impression of how much time has passed.

My opinion has always been that it's the same day but several hours have passed. Weir would have been able to access his file via computer I'm sure.

Nice pics SAF which brings up another question - Wouldn't the SGC have put Sheppard through a bootcamp/ Stargates for Dummies course? Even if it sounds like he was going along as the 'ATA lightswitch,' and outside the military chain of command (at least that's what I get from Sumner's attitude) the SGC would have taken him on a few excursions to friendly world and at least exposed him to gate travel before the big send-off.

There's an episode of SG-1 (can't remember the title) where they are training possible SG team members. All done on Earth with some special effects to approximate goa'uld, etc. I'm sure Sheppard went through some kind of training like that, but he obviously didn't go through the gate. I'm sure he had lots of mission reports to read and tests (psychological, physical, etc) to take before they left. I got the impression he and Sumner hadn't actually met until the gate room.

Weir said she'd been chosing expedition members for some time. Would she take second best? I think, maybe. She would also have an eye for people that could work well together. There may have been individuals that might not have been the very top of their field, but would have been more than capable and willing to go. There would have been egos and some squirrelliness, but that comes with the territory of extreme intelligence, i suppose.

I think she probably really had the best and the brightest in their respective fields from several different countries. Not every brilliant scientist in the world was taken. Only those who agreed to go with no knowledge of where they were going until they signed the non-disclosure agreement.

I'm also not sure why Simon got clearance for that info when others didn't. I know Elizabeth was encouraging him to apply to join the programme later in the series, but if he hadn't been part of it at this point, why would she be allowed to tell him what was going on when the Stargate was still such a highly classified project?

I know, I'm nit-picking again, but I'm hoping someone can answer all my dumb questions!

I read/heard somewhere that Simon was intended to be Weir's husband. Then when they had the opportunity to bring him back in S2 and they hadn't actually called him "Simon Weir" or whatever, they changed it to being her boyfriend. Perhaps him being her spouse (and her being the personal selection of the US President) allowed him the opportunity. My biggest beef was someone sending him a tape/DVD to watch at home. What? If they were going to show him the message she left, they should have taken him to a secure location where he couldn't post it to youtube 15 minutes later.

Pocus - I see you've posted discussion questions. I'll send you a couple more in case we need more to talk about later in the week.