Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Melyanna]

I can imagine a pool like Vancouver even has more of a challenge than a larger tv market like NY. How many attractive 34 year old women are just waiting around for a guest part on Stargate Atlantis? So many of the character actors of any advanced age have already 'given it up' to find better paying jobs to support themselves and families.

I agree; it must be an even bigger problem in Vancouver. The guys on West Wing did all their casting in LA, so if they were having trouble finding age-appropriate guest stars, I can only imagine what it's like for Stargate. Of course, West Wing probably had it both worse and better. These parts were often very small but critical. The character that prompted the comment from the producers was a teachers' union leader who had all of three scenes, two of which were only a couple lines, but the character was crucial to the end of the episode. But by this point, the show had such a reputation that established actors were willing to take some of these parts. Christopher Lloyd had a rather small one-time role on the show, and our very own Mitch Pileggi played a small-ish part himself. Stargate, I'm afraid, doesn't have that reputation from years of winning Emmys.

But you know, that's even more of an incentive for the writers of SGA to give up on trying to write these Kirkin type episodes for a male star that is a bit older. I honestly was more than a little pained in watching the Sorority sisters- blond barbie and the little wraith spy chick- mess with John. One of my best friends has a daughter that is 22 and she looks just like the cute little wraith spy girl and all I could think of as she hit on John for info was 'Ewwww...this would be like my friend's daughter hitting on my husband!' Yeck! There's just a very noticable age difference in John and most of these young women and perhaps it doesn't bother some of you younger gals because John is so gorgeous-regardless of age- but trust me, when you get to actually be 40, and some of your friends actually have grown kids that you watched grow up then you don't look at 22 year olds as potential bedmates. It may sound as if I'm being age biased but I promise you, I'm really not. I think if you asked most people my age, they'd tell you the same.

Heh. I'm twenty-three, and I agree with you completely. I really don't have anything against age differences, but when you're in your early twenties, fifteen or twenty years is a huge difference. And Joe Flanigan, for as young as he looks, does not look like he's twenty-five. The women in these episodes have no depth, so yeah, I've got a problem with the age differences in those cases.

The girl in The Hive didn't bother me, probably because John saw right through it. But Epiphany actually did bug me, because the casting sides specifically said that Teer was supposed to be in her thirties, and the woman they cast didn't look it. Neera was supposed to be late twenties, too. Mara, on the other hand, was listed as early twenties, but I've got a plethora of other reasons to loathe and despise The Tower that I shan't get into until we get to that episode.

[Southern Red]

Good morning. I have to chime in on the age discussion. How many movies or TV shows have you seen where the beyond middle age hero is hooked up with a girl young enough to be his daughter or even his granddaughter? *coughClintEastwoodcough* They do it all the time with these guys. Last night hubby and I watched a Jackie Chan movie in which his girl should have been playing his daughter. The first thing my husband said was, "She's way too young for him." It just wasn't believable. We also just saw MI-3 and the girl in that was at least 10 years younger that Tom Cruise. *never mind real life* Now I think JF is at least as gorgeous as 'ol Tom and even a bit younger so I speculate you won't see him with a woman who looks his age. Men are doing the writing. Men, as far as I can tell from commentaries and interviews, with frat boy mentalities. I mean they brought in a former Penthouse playmate pet model to play a scientist, for Lord's sake. That said, I also noticed JF's new gray hairs and lines. Last year they airbrushed the promo pictures to give us Major Lt. Col. Barbie Ken. This year maybe we'll get reality. And I noticed in the promo ads that Torri looks softer and younger. Hmm? Maybe they'll pass each other. Which makes me wonder about all the physical changes in her. All for the better I think. They are making her more attractive for a reason, and it's not like I've heard some meanspirited people say that she needs more makeup because she's so old and fugly. Some people need to trade their shippy glasses for some extra strength prescription lenses.

[Atlantean_Fan]

And nobody thought, even for a second, that if necessary John himself would convince her to let him go ala Siege II. That guy has a sense of things (?) and knows what is the right thing to do as much as she does or more and is way more leaning into sacrificing himself than anyone else IMHO. I still think people underestimate John sometimes. So I realy don't see a problem there. If the situation calls for it, he will go even if she says no. Desperate times requires desperate measures. I guess that is the saying turn into English. And yes, I believe Shep would go against Weir again ala HZ if he thinks again that there is no better way or the risks to follow her are greater than the alternative. Haven't seen Michael yet, my last episode was TLG. For some reason I still like Conversion better, this episode kinda fell flat to me and I don't know why exactly.

[Melyanna]

Now I think JF is at least as gorgeous as 'ol Tom and even a bit younger so I speculate you won't see him with a woman who looks his age. Men are doing the writing. Men, as far as I can tell from commentaries and interviews, with frat boy mentalities. I mean they brought in a former Penthouse playmate pet model to play a scientist, for Lord's sake. That said, I also noticed JF's new gray hairs and lines. Last year they airbrushed the promo pictures to give us Major Lt. Col. Barbie Ken. This year maybe we'll get reality. And I noticed in the promo ads that Torri looks softer and younger. Hmm? Maybe they'll pass each other. Which makes me wonder about all the physical changes in her. All for the better I think. They are making her more attractive for a reason, and it's not like I've heard some meanspirited people say that she needs more makeup because she's so old and fugly. Some people need to trade their shippy glasses for some extra strength prescription lenses.

Men are also doing the casting, which may partly explain why these characters are being listed by TPTB as older than the actresses who actually get the parts.

As for Torri, I think they just had a lot of trouble figuring out how to light her early in the show. She's very thin with an angular face, and it's incredibly easy to make someone with sharp features look much older. It didn't help at all that they straightened her hair at first. The curls really soften things up.

I also find it interesting to note that Weir was originally listed as about ten years older. It wasn't until Torri was cast that they changed the age to 35. Obviously someone thought she didn't look 45 at all.

And I'm with you – I hope the photos this year aren't so airbrushed. We got some gorgeous pictures last year, but I'm far more drawn to one of the pictures we just got yesterday of Sateda, where we see wrinkles around John's eyes and even a hint of grey in his sideburns. These characters have been through a lot. Their before-and-after shots should say as much.

[Bama]

Men are also doing the casting, which may partly explain why these characters are being listed by TPTB as older than the actresses who actually get the parts.

As for Torri, I think they just had a lot of trouble figuring out how to light her early in the show. She's very thin with an angular face, and it's incredibly easy to make someone with sharp features look much older. It didn't help at all that they straightened her hair at first. The curls really soften things up.

I also find it interesting to note that Weir was originally listed as about ten years older. It wasn't until Torri was cast that they changed the age to 35. Obviously someone thought she didn't look 45 at all.

And I'm with you – I hope the photos this year aren't so airbrushed. We got some gorgeous pictures last year, but I'm far more drawn to one of the pictures we just got yesterday of Sateda, where we see wrinkles around John's eyes and even a hint of grey in his sideburns. These characters have been through a lot. Their before-and-after shots should say as much.

Which brings me back to the question I'd love to pose to TPTB about their character visions. How could they have looked at Torri and then watched Torri and Joe interact together on screen and had any hope of holding to that original 'vision' they had for the John and Elizabeth dynamic? If they had cast an older 'Weir' and someone who was not identical in age to him, I could see perhaps a big sister/ little brother type vibe developing but there's no way that many people were going to see them as less than equals from the get-go based on the two they chose to cast. It baffles me that they couldn't realize that people were going to-for lack of a better phrase- 'hook them up' to begin with.

From the very beginning of the series in Rising and on thru the 1st season, we see a male and female of about the same age, both attractive and outspoken who spend a great deal of time together challenging each other in some riveting ways and yet did tptb just expect the audience to fall all over itself hooking the baby-faced John up with the bit younger looking babe just because she was a bit younger? Imho, that's not giving your audience credit for having much sense as far as understanding how relationships really work.

And TPTB have already admitted that their original 'vision' for the John/Elizabeth dynamic is blown so what is their vision now? It's fascinating to see them have to 'rework' it as we go along. It looks like they decided to go the Best Friends Forever/Significant other route and they've done so beautifully making them closer than close and forging a bond that only they understand but my friends if TPTB don't see that such a relationship puts in great peril any other romantic relationship plans for either of these two very characters then perhaps it is they who truly don't understand what makes relationships work. There are deep friendship bonds in life or 'brothers' in arms or whatever you want to call it and then there is this undefinable 'thing' that John and Elizabeth have developed between them and handed TPTB on a silver platter. The difference in the two is significant. This is truly one of those rare instances where you don't write the characters or the relationships but rather they write themselves. I've been told those are the best stories of all.

[FoolishPleasure]

I also noticed JF's new gray hairs and lines. Last year they airbrushed the promo pictures to give us Major Lt. Col. Barbie Ken. This year maybe we'll get reality.

I always liked the way the SG1 folks let RDA age gracefully, with that beautiful gray hair slowly showing up more often as the seasons progressed. It doesn't take anything away from a character, and makes the show more realistic.

Hoping JF gets to "keep" the gray.

[Melyanna]

I always liked the way the SG1 folks let RDA age gracefully, with that beautiful gray hair slowly showing up more often as the seasons progressed. It doesn't take anything away from a character, and makes the show more realistic.

Hoping JF gets to "keep" the gray.

Heheheheh. RDA had already gone grey before SG-1 started, which accounts for the awful, awful dye job on his hair in the early seasons. He finally talked them out of it after a couple years. But yeah, it was nice to see the characters really start to look older as the show progressed. I'm also hoping that they let JF keep the hints of grey. These characters are going through some tremendously stressful events right now. It only makes sense that he'd start showing more signs of age when Elizabeth's constantly in danger. I mean, when he's always having to defend the city. Right.

[SGLAB]

Heheheheh. RDA had already gone grey before SG-1 started, which accounts for the awful, awful dye job on his hair in the early seasons. He finally talked them out of it after a couple years. But yeah, it was nice to see the characters really start to look older as the show progressed. I'm also hoping that they let JF keep the hints of grey. These characters are going through some tremendously stressful events right now. It only makes sense that he'd start showing more signs of age when Elizabeth's constantly in danger. I mean, when he's always having to defend the city. Right.

I remember watching the end of Macguyver, RDA's previous show and seeing hints of gray then. The dye job on him at the beginning of sg-1 seriously threw me. Thank goodness they let it go gray eventually.

I seem to remember in Epiphany

Spoiler:

there looked to be hints of gray in Sheppard's beard and I too hope they don't start messing with it if it's starting to show.

I also agree that I don't have a problem with 10-15 years of age difference per se. It really depends on the age of the younger person. A person in their early twenties with someone 10-15 years older doesn't work for me. A 35-40 year old for instants with someone 10-15 years older I don't mind. That's where Sam and Jack are in age difference. Therefore, while I'm not a shipper for them, it's not because of their age difference.

I see John and Elizabeth as the same age. I don't give a thought to age difference unless it's more than five years and they're definitely not that far apart in age as far as I'm concerned. Personality wise John is more of a devil may care type while Elizabeth tends more towards serious or stoic. That tends to give her a more mature look I think. The thing is I think these traits are good influence on each other.

[Luz]

From the very beginning of the series in Rising and on thru the 1st season, we see a male and female of about the same age, both attractive and outspoken who spend a great deal of time together challenging each other in some riveting ways and yet did tptb just expect the audience to fall all over itself hooking the baby-faced John up with the bit younger looking babe just because she was a bit younger? Imho, that's not giving your audience credit for having much sense as far as understanding how relationships really work.

I think they've moved on from their original vision, if not why bring onto the mix the hot big wild guy who accompanies the young babe everywhere. Or they might be so blind they don't realize people might think of hooking two hot people with great chemistry who spend all their time together. I'd think they might be that blind, but then who lets them spend all their time together?, tptb. So yeah to me they've moved on.
I think tptb might have realized their mistake during season one and began correcting it during season 2.
At the beginning of season 1 they tried to make Weir look older, they did try hard to shove that whole older mother hen idea at us, but there is this unstoppable vitality in Torri, this sexuality, she's a young spirit. During season 2 Weir looked more open, she smiled more, was flirty, sultry, she seemed to put on a few pounds which fit her wonderfully. And tptb stopped trying to go agains Torri's natural charms, let's face it tptb had this beautiful and sexy leading lady and were trying to hide it, stupid mistake. Thank god they've stopped, plus they were failing miserably anyway.
And now it seems they've stopped trying to make Sheppard look like a twenty year old too, and he looks sexier, i'd say he can't possibly get any more beautiful than what he already is, but that's a lie. Gosh!, i'm a sucker for older guys *gushes* .

[Southern Red]

I think they've moved on from their original vision, if not why bring onto the mix the hot big wild guy who accompanies the young babe everywhere. Or they might be so blind they don't realize people might think of hooking two hot people with great chemistry who spend all their time together. I'd think they might be that blind, but then who lets them spend all their time together?, tptb. So yeah to me they've moved on.
I think tptb might have realized their mistake during season one and began correcting it during season 2.
At the beginning of season 1 they tried to make Weir look older, they did try hard to shove that whole older mother hen idea at us, but there is this unstoppable vitality in Torri, this sexuality, she's a young spirit. During season 2 Weir looked more open, she smiled more, was flirty, sultry, she seemed to put on a few pounds which fit her wonderfully. And tptb stopped trying to go agains Torri's natural charms, let's face it tptb had this beautiful and sexy leading lady and were trying to hide it, stupid mistake. Thank god they've stopped, plus they were failing miserably anyway.
And now it seems they've stopped trying to make Sheppard look like a twenty year old too, and he looks sexier, i'd say he can't possibly get any more beautiful than what he already is, but that's a lie. Gosh!, i'm a sucker for older guys *gushes* .

And I'm a sucker for younger men, but I do like the little bit of grey and the lines by the eyes just make him hotter. Ok, not possible but you know what I mean. Speaking of TPTB and the changes Luz mentioned above. You know sometimes I think we don't give them enough credit. Look at what they did with Ronon. If, as we claim, they go for the obvious then it's logical that Ronon was always being paired with Teyla for a reason. Also that would make the scenes with just John and Liz as being done for a reason. If we try to overthink and say it's because R/T are aliens and they have a special connection because of their outsider status, or that J/E are leaders and they have to spend time together to talk over the business of the day we are overlooking the obvious. The simple solution always works best I think. That's my reasoning and I'm sticking to it.

[Melyanna]

At the beginning of season 1 they tried to make Weir look older, they did try hard to shove that whole older mother hen idea at us, but there is this unstoppable vitality in Torri, this sexuality, she's a young spirit. During season 2 Weir looked more open, she smiled more, was flirty, sultry, she seemed to put on a few pounds which fit her wonderfully. And tptb stopped trying to go agains Torri's natural charms, let's face it tptb had this beautiful and sexy leading lady and were trying to hide it, stupid mistake. Thank god they've stopped, plus they were failing miserably anyway.

Now if they could just find her pants that fit properly. And yeah, I think it's definitely helped that they've moved away from the stoic Weir in the original plan. I absolutely adore the little one-on-one moments we got with these two in Season 2. He humanizes her more than anyone else in the show.

Also a good move to let John look a bit older. Joe's got such a baby-face that it's hard to believe he's old enough to play a lieutenant colonel, especially one who probably was passed over for promotion a time or two. Besides, it's hot.

[Southern Red]

And to lighten things up: Whee, new pics!

Spoiler:

Teyla: The new breastplate is...ah...interesting.
Ronon: First thing to go when we get home.
John: Dang, I should have listened to Elizabeth and laced my new boots all the way up.
Teyla: Colonel, I told you not wearing socks with new shoes would cause blisters.
Ronon:

[Vicky]

Now if they could just find her pants that fit properly. And yeah, I think it's definitely helped that they've moved away from the stoic Weir in the original plan. I absolutely adore the little one-on-one moments we got with these two in Season 2. He humanizes her more than anyone else in the show.

Also a good move to let John look a bit older. Joe's got such a baby-face that it's hard to believe he's old enough to play a lieutenant colonel, especially one who probably was passed over for promotion a time or two. Besides, it's hot.

They really compliment each other. Like you said, when she's with John she's really different from the Weir the others see. And the fact that Elizabeth trusts him, listens to him even when her opinion is different (like in Rising for instance), that changes John.

And about the age difference discussion, I want to add a little something 'cos I know it nearly first-hand. My Grandpa was 21 years older than my Grandma so age difference doesn't bother me. I know that if feelings are there, it doesn't matter how old the other is. But in Atlantis, that bothers me 'cos it's only kirking, there's nothing more involved. Ok, he might find them attractive (I'm a woman but who didn't find Teer, Mara or any other Chick of the Week even just a little bit attractive?), but I really can't stand the idea of him being with someone really younger than him just for fun. If there was feelings involved, with Teyla for instance, I might stand it (even though I'll still be a proud Sparky shipper).

And why is John the only one to have all the fun? Give Lizzie what Torri wants for her: an eight-armed alien (and if it's a certain JD who played it I think nobody would mind so Liz could also have fun!

[Bama]

I really can't stand the idea of him being with someone really younger than him just for fun.

That's the absolute crux of it. There are exceptions to every rule and in today's world, most of the time the jump from 21 to 41 is a bigger one in some ways than a couple of generations ago too. I like what you say here Vick. Very nice post.

And I'm a sucker for younger men, but I do like the little bit of grey and the lines by the eyes just make him hotter. Ok, not possible but you know what I mean. Speaking of TPTB and the changes Luz mentioned above. You know sometimes I think we don't give them enough credit. Look at what they did with Ronon. If, as we claim, they go for the obvious then it's logical that Ronon was always being paired with Teyla for a reason. Also that would make the scenes with just John and Liz as being done for a reason. If we try to overthink and say it's because R/T are aliens and they have a special connection because of their outsider status, or that J/E are leaders and they have to spend time together to talk over the business of the day we are overlooking the obvious. The simple solution always works best I think. That's my reasoning and I'm sticking to it.

The olde Ockham's Razor Principle applied to relationships eh? The most simple answer is usually the correct one. I think you're right. Some like to deny that John and Elizabeth spend time together because they choose to. I think Conversion is a good example of that.

Spoiler:

You see Elizabeth go out of her way not to involve Caldwell in her everyday duties. Caldwell notices that he's not getting 'John' treatment and calls her hand on it and frankly calls it for what it is- a special caring for John to which Elizabeth tries to quantify but doesn't specifically deny.

Let's be honest-Elizabeth and John could very well do their jobs quite seperately without seeking each other out all the flipping time. There's email, messenger, radio, etc. For goodness sakes, they're the first in command of their differing divisions. They could do almost all their conversation via other people! Yet, the writers don't portray it that way. They give each of them the 'want to be near you whenever I can' syndrome we see over and over and over again in eps like Tower, Duet, Coup, Siege, GUP, Intruder, and on and on and on. To say there's a constant and consistent pattern as to what the writers are doing with these two is an understatement!

I guess I'd just like to see more emotional development in areas and more characterization issues than we got from this bunch in SG-1. Of course, I'm sure many of the so-called scif-fi 'purists' would heartily disagree with me on that. I do think you'd have to be in denial not to see that Ronon was brought into this show to give Teyla more of a 'presence' and to have someone to knock around with more. Whether they actually take the sexual attraction we got from that first 'bedroom' scene between them and develop it into a full-fledged relationship is another issue but there appear to be signs of both of them trying to understand the other in a more in-depth way. Both of them seem to be willing to go the extra mile to understand the other. Sounds like another pair I know.

Well, I'll chew on it at the lake for a bit! If I haven't told you guys lately-you are all incredibly smart and just fantastic to chat with!!!

[Melyanna]

And to lighten things up: Whee, new pics!

Spoiler:

Teyla: The new breastplate is...ah...interesting.
Ronon: First thing to go when we get home.
John: Dang, I should have listened to Elizabeth and laced my new boots all the way up.
Teyla: Colonel, I told you not wearing socks with new shoes would cause blisters.
Ronon:

*giggles madly*

On a lighter note... is John wearing leather? And will Elizabeth get to see this?