Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Melyanna]

Okay, I think John does flirt quite a bit openly with this "other" person. To me it just falls flat, though. And there are many different kinds of flirting. I "flirt" with friends, and I "flirt" with guys I'm interested in but it's two different kinds. It's not that Shep doesn't flirt with one as much as the other it's just how it comes off in the end.

Good point. I flirt with friends, but that doesn't mean I'd jump any of them. I honestly think that most of the time, John's flirting is to "charm and disarm," so to speak. The flirting with Teyla went away after a while because it didn't serve a purpose anymore.

Now, John doesn't have to "disarm" Elizabeth to convince her of anything, but he flirts with her anyway. Works for me.

For those of you who've gotten PMs, I wouldn't respond to them. If they're at all abusive or harassing, they need to be reported, but I wouldn't dignify them with a direct response.

[Major_Moomin]

The flirting with Teyla went away after a while because it didn't serve a purpose anymore.

I suppose it's hard to flirt with the back of someone's head... she's looking and talking with Ronan all the time.

Now, John doesn't have to "disarm" Elizabeth to convince her of anything, but he flirts with her anyway. Works for me.

She's responsive to it in a way. She teases him back. It was a nice medium that allowed their friendship to grow. Maybe it allowed him to relax enough around her so he could see her for the person she is, and not just his commander that he takes orders from...sometimes.

[Melyanna]

She's responsive to it in a way. She teases him back. It was a nice medium that allowed their friendship to grow. Maybe it allowed him to relax enough around her so he could see her for the person she is, and not just his commander that he takes orders from...sometimes.

Hmm. I think what I meant was this: he doesn't just flirt when he wants her to give him permission for something, and when he wants permission, he doesn't always flirt. He was cute and flirty when he was trying to get his way in Duet, but in Trinity, he was anything but flirty while trying to convince her.

And you make an interesting comment there at the end. Do you think that perhaps their close friendship has actually made working together easier?

Something about Hot Zone (and Rising, for that matter) that I find really striking is that Elizabeth didn't seem aware of how much John wants to save people. It's not just a personality quirk; it's what he was trained to do. It's not something he can just ignore easily. But by the end of Season 1 we saw a much closer friendship developing, and I think that's actually allowed them to work together better, instead of hindering them because of any feelings they have for each other. They know each other well enough that they know what they have to say to convince the other. John, in particular, has learned that he has to have an actual plan to convince Elizabeth, instead of just coming up with it on the fly.

[Major_Moomin]

Hmm. I think what I meant was this: he doesn't just flirt when he wants her to give him permission for something, and when he wants permission, he doesn't always flirt. He was cute and flirty when he was trying to get his way in Duet, but in Trinity, he was anything but flirty while trying to convince her.

I wonder if Critical Mass was an example of that. He had no reason to come into her office. Yet he came in, joked about Zelenka, sat on her desk and spoke to her.
He did the same thing in Coup D'etat too. He sat on the edge of her desk. I see that as a very personal thing to do. I get on with my Boss very well, but I'd never dream of perching myself on his desk. So, while not 'flirting' in a spoken sense...the gesture of sitting on her desk like that was... even though he wasn't really there for anything.

And you make an interesting comment there at the end. Do you think that perhaps their close friendship has actually made working together easier?

Something about Hot Zone (and Rising, for that matter) that I find really striking is that Elizabeth didn't seem aware of how much John wants to save people. It's not just a personality quirk; it's what he was trained to do. It's not something he can just ignore easily. But by the end of Season 1 we saw a much closer friendship developing, and I think that's actually allowed them to work together better, instead of hindering them because of any feelings they have for each other. They know each other well enough that they know what they have to say to convince the other. John, in particular, has learned that he has to have an actual plan to convince Elizabeth, instead of just coming up with it on the fly.

I do. I think certain events like The Seige allowed their friendship to develop which, in turn, made working together easier. I think it made her understand him better so that when a situation developed and he wanted to take certain actions, she could understand why he wanted to do it. Instead of before, when she probably would have fought with him over it. Them knowing each other on a much more personal level probably made it easier for them to make decisions that they were both happy with too. She know now that there is a reason why he takes certain actions. All they have to argue about now is him coming back in one peice...not going in the first place.

For me the moment in The Seige II was when the penny dropped for Elizabeth. In that moment she really understood him.

[SGLAB]

I just found this WIP and had to rec. it. Shep/Weir and orphaned children.

Suffer Little Children

[Vixen]

I'm a little late but I had to confirm again how good Critical Mass was. Elizabeth was a strong llittle one in this episode. At the end of the day she did what she had to do

Spoiler:

Although I could've done without Teyla's singing

[Bama]

Guys, where did that watch Elizabeth plays with on her desk come from?

[Southern Red]

I have a few quick thoughts on their friendship and working together. I do think that has made their working relationship run smoothly. They often don't have to discuss a decision, because each knows what the other would do. As stated above with CM

Spoiler:

John knows when she is upset or worried and makes a special effort to console her. Let's think it through. He saw Zalenka, thought "gee, you know, Elizabeth would get a kick out of this". Came into her office with the intention of telling her all about it. I love the way his face just lit up there. But he quickly saw that she was a bit down, so he sat on the desk which brought them closer physically, changed his tone of voice to a more sympathetic one and proceded to try to make her feel better. How much more closely in tune could they be?

He knows what she would do in a given situation like in Inferno and she doesn't have to go into long winded explanations of what she needs him to do. He doesn't always agree fully like in Michael/Allies, but once a decision is reached he goes out of his way to carry out her orders. It's almost like he's trying these days to make up for past mistakes and make her proud of him. I think her opinion means a lot, aside from any shippiness, and if she lost faith in him it would be about the worst thing that could happen. I'm going too subtextual, and you all know I hate that, but that's how the character of John comes across sometimes.

I just love the idea that they aren't meant to be antagonists but partners. (my word) I'm starting to get excited about S3 and can't wait to see how they will meet the new challenges together. No matter what happens shipwise, the S/W team is not going to change. In fact I predict they will only grow closer.

[Melyanna]

Guys, where did that watch Elizabeth plays with on her desk come from?

Torri said in a convention (or it might have been here) that the watch belonged to Elizabeth's grandfather. Yet another thing I'd like to get canon on at some point.

[Bama]

He saw Zalenka, thought "gee, you know, Elizabeth would get a kick out of this". Came into her office with the intention of telling her all about it. I love the way his face just lit up there. But he quickly saw that she was a bit down, so he sat on the desk which brought them closer physically, changed his tone of voice to a more sympathetic one and proceded to try to make her feel better. How much more closely in tune could they be?

So Married.
Yet another one of those moments.

I just love the idea that they aren't meant to be antagonists but partners. (my word) I'm starting to get excited about S3 and can't wait to see how they will meet the new challenges together. No matter what happens shipwise, the S/W team is not going to change. In fact I predict they will only grow closer.

I really want to think so too SR but I have a gut feeling that there's a wrench in the works and their relationship is about to be tested if not changed. What influence do you guys see Caldwell's increased presence having and also closer scrutiny by the all seeing 'Earth powers' eye?

[Southern Red]

So Married.
Yet another one of those moments.



I really want to think so too SR but I have a gut feeling that there's a wrench in the works and their relationship is about to be tested if not changed. What influence do you guys see Caldwell's increased presence having and also closer scrutiny by the all seeing 'Earth powers' eye?

Do we know from spoilers that Caldwell will be around more in S3? If so, I think it would only bring them closer. Look what happened in S2. The Earth powers also I think would just cause them to circle the wagons. We already know she won't let them do anything bad to John. Now I'd like to see him have to stand up for her. Every relationship has to have a test. The trial by fire idea, so yeah S3 may be just that. We'll just have to strap ourselves in but judging from fan opinion most seem to want them to at least be friends if not more.

[Bama]

Do we know from spoilers that Caldwell will be around more in S3? If so, I think it would only bring them closer. Look what happened in S2. The Earth powers also I think would just cause them to circle the wagons. We already know she won't let them do anything bad to John. Now I'd like to see him have to stand up for her. Every relationship has to have a test. The trial by fire idea, so yeah S3 may be just that. We'll just have to strap ourselves in but judging from fan opinion most seem to want them to at least be friends if not more.

I think you're right in that we'd better strap it down because this baby looks to be headed toward a big trial by fire in S3. I do believe that Mitch has locked in Colonel Skinner as a semi-reg on the show this coming season and I think I caught a pretty high ep count somewhere that he would be involved in thus my assertion that his presence might make a difference in the SWR.

[mentalmichael]

I

And now a quick question for you all...

I received a message from...shall we say a person not in favor of Sheppard and Weir or my 'take' on things. This person tells me emphatically that I'm pretty much full of horse manure (probably some truth to that) and that the only reason John flirts with Elizabeth so much is because he wants to use his charm to build her ego up so he can get his way. And in comparison, the only reason he flirts with another person so little openly is because he would never flirt and charm someone he has an inner torch burning for because he's terribly afraid that if he flirts with this other woman that she'll see his true inner feelings coming through.

Any thoughts on a response?

I think I went comatose reading it.

Well (hate to bring up an old topic but I haven't been around much so what the hell) it is of course entirely possible that this is the case. Of course if we follow this line of argument it is entirely possible that the reason he's so friendly with anyone on Atlantis is because he's secretly plotting to kill them. Bad luck everyone on Atlantis. And obviously Weir only acts like that around John to disguise her love for Chuck. And don't even get me started on the Teyla/Ronon/Mckay supressed love triangle!

Seriously, this is a show - we have to go with what we're shown, not with what the characters might just be thinking (that's what fanfic is for). Actually, forget that fanfic comment, the idea of someone writing a Teyla/Ronon/Mckay fic makes my head ache!

[mirafemina]

Some pretty hefty discussion going on here. Love it!

About the flirting.

If we were debating on the likelyhood of a ship based on flirting alone, Shep would HAVE to be paired with everyone woman he's ever run into on the show. But it's not just the flirting. It's everything else that goes along with it. And that is why I think Sparky works as the SGA OTP (along with Ronon/Teyla of course. ).AL

In S1 the sparkage was all coming from Shep. He was hurling these big sexy smiles at her and being cheeky whenever he got the chance. My fave example of this is Home, when she comes to his room to talk about who should travel back to earth. He's totally laying on the charm and she just laps it up without batting an eyelid.

But like A.L. said, it isn't all restricted to flirting. It's all the less obvious stuff that makes sparky a strong pairing and so much fun to watch. The flirting totally cranked up in S2, with more obvious moments as well as the little things we love to shout 'ship' at.

Someone said earlier (was it Major Moo?) that things changed for Elizabeth when Shep ran off on for the jumper in Seige II - I agree 110%. I know it's cliche, but put anyone in a real life and death situation on a TV show and simmering emotions come to the foreground. And we got the wonderful pay off in Seige III.

Spoiler:

Oh the wonderful hug! And the shakyShep voice!

I think it's about time for what Southern Red and Bama are calling a 'trial by fire'! It's about time Shep had to defend Elizabeth with words as opposed to action. Bring on some powerful Shep speeches!

[Ronnikins]

Dammit, was just going to lurk this morning before I have to fly out the door. *kicks timezones, why are you guys on the opposite sides of the world?*

Bama, I was going to PM you my reply last night but it said your mailbox was full.(Even in private you've a lot to say, heh! )
This is the abridged version: It just goes to show different folks put different spins on certain scenes, fair enough, I respect that. What I don't respect is a poster who comes into a PRO DISCUSSION thread for S/W and then PMs you on why it won't work and why the other ship is better. What did they expect? That's rude and disrepectful. I suspect it must have been a newbie (or immature) who doesn't know better. The older, wiser posters would know better not to do anything to start a shipper war, and they on the whole are quite decent, it just takes one or two to ruin things. Everybody's entitled to have their viewpoint but if they don't want another viewpoint "rammed down" their throat then DON'T come into this thread. End of rant...sorry for being snarky...haven't had coffee yet.

And you make an interesting comment there at the end. Do you think that perhaps their close friendship has actually made working together easier?

Hell, yes!!!!! Or do they think "keep your friends close but your enemies even closer"?


So many pig adages, I love them. Down here in Australia we have sheep, lots and lots of sheep.

On Flirting:
Duh! Of course John flirts, it's built in. BUT he does have serious, quiet moments with Elizabeth and that is more telling than anything else.
(It's amazing when one is on a time constraint, how succinct one can be..)

PS, Bama, if you're interested in my longer message, can you pls clear your mailbox?

Must fly, have a good day, night, afternoon whatever.

Edit: I want more emoting (angst) from Shep for Elizabeth in Season 3 too.