Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

You bet this was an excellent discussion!

I started an ecellent discussion *grin* Before I head off to lovely job, I wanted to say this. bout John needing to be saved - maybe that is a too strong word, but being partr of the expedition, in the way Elizabethg allwed him/needed him to be was very importan to him. Maybe it didn't give him a sense of purpose, ut I believe he did gain a greater sense of purpose than he had back in the Anctartica (which I can't spell. ) Atlantis was't ust a mission it was/is a home. And n only th, a mission to serve and fulfill with his whole heart. I guess the expeditionas a chance for him to redeem himself, and I think he wanted a fair chance. Remember the gateroomscenes when he walks in (almost like he doesn't belong there) and Sumner's reaction to him? John uses his famous snarky humor at that point ("That would be Doctor Weir"), but he's not happy about Sumner's reaction at all. It was like "Crap. I'm gonna be a black sheep again".

I guess Elizabeth is the first person in the long time who said (not literally): "Look. I read your file. I know all your wrongs, but I expect you to act accrding to your responsibilities and duties here. Get your act tgether". And apart from that she listened to him and took hisarguments into account, which is why John respected her (unlike most of his commanders).

I think beng a part of it all, in a way Eizabeth set it up was incredibly important for him. He didn't become that guy from "Vegas" for a reason, expedition and Elizabeth's trust and the way she pretty much taught him to be less impulsive was a huge part of it. Did she save him? I don't know. But I believe she helped.

I don't know if Elizabeth necessarily saved John, either. I think perhaps it's more accurate to say that she gave John a chance to help himself, to redeem himself, as you said. She was, it seems, the first person in a while who looked at him and saw more than his record; she saw that he screwed up, yes, but he did so in trying to do a good thing, trying to do the right thing. I think she understood that having someone who could think of doing the right thing first would benefit the expedition, and of course, it would benefit John himself when he realized that yes, he was valued beyond just being a warm body with a gun. Win-win for everybody.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Is it too late to join in the discussion.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

hey does anyone have the link to the J/E story whisper in the dark or Whispers in the dark? i dont know the name. it takes place during season 4 of atlantis.

[drewandian]

You bet this was an excellent discussion!



I don't know if Elizabeth necessarily saved John, either. I think perhaps it's more accurate to say that she gave John a chance to help himself, to redeem himself, as you said. She was, it seems, the first person in a while who looked at him and saw more than his record; she saw that he screwed up, yes, but he did so in trying to do a good thing, trying to do the right thing. I think she understood that having someone who could think of doing the right thing first would benefit the expedition, and of course, it would benefit John himself when he realized that yes, he was valued beyond just being a warm body with a gun. Win-win for everybody.

this right here is why I couldn't have served in any unit other than the Band. I don't think he screwed up. He disobeyed a direct order, yes. But I, like John, have a lot of trouble following orders when I can see the opportunity to do the right thing and possibly save lives (even if it means risking my own life or my career). And I think Elizabeth saw that in him - that understanding that some things are bigger than chain of command and orders and stuff and knew that she had to take a chance on him. That the expedition needed someone like him. And I definitely think that they kind of, I dunno, changed the way the other saw things and how they decided to approach different situations.

My thoughts on the whole Elizabeth/Simon thing (and the goodbye video): I always got the impression that we were supposed to believe that they had been together for quite some time and were pretty serious, even though they weren't living together (he calls her place, gets that 'this number is out of service' recording). So, if they're that close and she's that invested in their relationship, why would she just give him a video? Especially one she's not even sure he'll be allowed to watch? I mean, I've been married for six years and I make it a point to say goodbye and I love you to hubby before I take the kids to the bus stop down the street....I'm pretty sure I'd do more than make a video if I was going to another galaxy. I'm just sayin...
I think (and this is just my opinion and I apparently put way more thought into these things than maybe I should) that they're relationship had reached that 'there's no fiery passion and I'm kinda over you but you're known and comfortable so I don't see any reason to change status quo for right now' point. I know that the stuff in "Home" turns out to be an illusion, but Elizabeth's reactions to her illusion are very real...and the feeling I got from them were feelings of relief at seeing someone comfortable and at the opportunity to just relax and be...again, I don't see much passion, not the kind that you feel when you've been away from someone you love ('can't live without') for an extended period of time. (I could just be biased because Simon creeps me out a little, I dunno). Then with "Intruder", I still feel like she's more interested in getting him to Atlantis for Atlantis' sake and because of her passion for the city and the expedition and the experience than for her passion for Simon and her commitment to their relationship. And I think she was ultimately more hurt by the realization that he'd moved on so quickly after her leaving because the thought that he would had never occurred to her than she was by the thought of the relationship being over. I'm not saying that the whole first year she was necessarily harboring feelings for John and that's why she had moved on from Simon, but I definitely think that her relationship with Simon was over long before the "official" break up in Intruder.
What does this all mean for John and Elizabeth? I dunno...lol...except that it's pretty clear that she's passionate about her work and Atlantis and needs to be with someone who feels and understands that passion (and that would be John, obviously)

[Southern Red]

I started an ecellent discussion *grin* Before I head off to lovely job, I wanted to say this. bout John needing to be saved - maybe that is a too strong word, but being partr of the expedition, in the way Elizabethg allwed him/needed him to be was very importan to him. Maybe it didn't give him a sense of purpose, ut I believe he did gain a greater sense of purpose than he had back in the Anctartica (which I can't spell. ) Atlantis was't ust a mission it was/is a home. And n only th, a mission to serve and fulfill with his whole heart. I guess the expeditionas a chance for him to redeem himself, and I think he wanted a fair chance. Remember the gateroomscenes when he walks in (almost like he doesn't belong there) and Sumner's reaction to him? John uses his famous snarky humor at that point ("That would be Doctor Weir"), but he's not happy about Sumner's reaction at all. It was like "Crap. I'm gonna be a black sheep again".

I guess Elizabeth is the first person in the long time who said (not literally): "Look. I read your file. I know all your wrongs, but I expect you to act accrding to your responsibilities and duties here. Get your act tgether". And apart from that she listened to him and took hisarguments into account, which is why John respected her (unlike most of his commanders).

I think beng a part of it all, in a way Eizabeth set it up was incredibly important for him. He didn't become that guy from "Vegas" for a reason, expedition and Elizabeth's trust and the way she pretty much taught him to be less impulsive was a huge part of it. Did she save him? I don't know. But I believe she helped.

Wow, I have a lot to catch up on. I love it when that happens.

I think you're exactly right that John found a sense of purpose in Atlantis. Yeah, he liked Antarctica but it wasn't like home. We never hear him mention any friends from there and in his fantasy world in Home, he only seems to imagine friends from before then. I think he was saved from leading a life of boredom. Sooner or later he would have just tuned out and let his brain go into auto mode. He may never have become like Vegas!John but maybe some minor form of him at some point.

On John respecting her. When he said that he respected Carter more than any other commanding officer, I just went "huh?" because I never saw him show a lot of respect for her. Yeah, Elizabeth was not his commanding officer, so that didn't pertain to her but I thought Carter let him run all over her. He was a lot more out of control with her than with Elizabeth. That was just part of the badwritingbadwritingbadwriting to me. It's so hard to analyze this show without seeing the pink elephant in the tutu in the middle of the room with the letters "TPTB" on its chest.

You bet this was an excellent discussion!



I don't know if Elizabeth necessarily saved John, either. I think perhaps it's more accurate to say that she gave John a chance to help himself, to redeem himself, as you said. She was, it seems, the first person in a while who looked at him and saw more than his record; she saw that he screwed up, yes, but he did so in trying to do a good thing, trying to do the right thing. I think she understood that having someone who could think of doing the right thing first would benefit the expedition, and of course, it would benefit John himself when he realized that yes, he was valued beyond just being a warm body with a gun. Win-win for everybody.

Yes, I'm reminded of their first argument on the balcony when he points his finger at her and tells her she knows rescuing their people is the right thing to do. She knew his reasons were good but didn't want to lose any more lives. John was sometimes reckless, as heroes tend to be. At least on TV.

Is it too late to join in the discussion.

Never too late. Hop in.

hey does anyone have the link to the J/E story whisper in the dark or Whispers in the dark? i dont know the name. it takes place during season 4 of atlantis.

I found: this one. The only other one I saw is an AU and not J/E.

this right here is why I couldn't have served in any unit other than the Band. I don't think he screwed up. He disobeyed a direct order, yes. But I, like John, have a lot of trouble following orders when I can see the opportunity to do the right thing and possibly save lives (even if it means risking my own life or my career). And I think Elizabeth saw that in him - that understanding that some things are bigger than chain of command and orders and stuff and knew that she had to take a chance on him. That the expedition needed someone like him. And I definitely think that they kind of, I dunno, changed the way the other saw things and how they decided to approach different situations.

ITA on the frat regs. It was just a convenient excuse for the writers not to do ship. On SG-1 I think they were trying to please the USAF more and had to sort of follow regs but on Atlantis they didn't do that. I guess the need to stay PG was part of the reason but with such a limited dating pool for the military people they sort of wrote themselves into a corner. Why does that not shock me?

My thoughts on the whole Elizabeth/Simon thing (and the goodbye video): I always got the impression that we were supposed to believe that they had been together for quite some time and were pretty serious, even though they weren't living together (he calls her place, gets that 'this number is out of service' recording). So, if they're that close and she's that invested in their relationship, why would she just give him a video? Especially one she's not even sure he'll be allowed to watch? I mean, I've been married for six years and I make it a point to say goodbye and I love you to hubby before I take the kids to the bus stop down the street....I'm pretty sure I'd do more than make a video if I was going to another galaxy. I'm just sayin...
I think (and this is just my opinion and I apparently put way more thought into these things than maybe I should) that they're relationship had reached that 'there's no fiery passion and I'm kinda over you but you're known and comfortable so I don't see any reason to change status quo for right now' point. I know that the stuff in "Home" turns out to be an illusion, but Elizabeth's reactions to her illusion are very real...and the feeling I got from them were feelings of relief at seeing someone comfortable and at the opportunity to just relax and be...again, I don't see much passion, not the kind that you feel when you've been away from someone you love ('can't live without') for an extended period of time. (I could just be biased because Simon creeps me out a little, I dunno). Then with "Intruder", I still feel like she's more interested in getting him to Atlantis for Atlantis' sake and because of her passion for the city and the expedition and the experience than for her passion for Simon and her commitment to their relationship. And I think she was ultimately more hurt by the realization that he'd moved on so quickly after her leaving because the thought that he would had never occurred to her than she was by the thought of the relationship being over. I'm not saying that the whole first year she was necessarily harboring feelings for John and that's why she had moved on from Simon, but I definitely think that her relationship with Simon was over long before the "official" break up in Intruder.
What does this all mean for John and Elizabeth? I dunno...lol...except that it's pretty clear that she's passionate about her work and Atlantis and needs to be with someone who feels and understands that passion (and that would be John, obviously)

I remember that Garwin Sanford said that he originally thought they were married and then later was informed that no they weren't. So again as with the original intended ship for John, they reassessed and changed it. I made up in my own mind that she left the video tape because she had been forced to lie to Simon about where she was actually going because he didn't have clearance and she had to leave before it was granted. She left the tape just in case it was. This is the dialogue from the tape:

WEIR (on the TV): Simon, if you're watching this, it means the President has been kind enough to grant you security clearance. (We see a man, obviously Simon, sitting in the living room of the house and watching the video.) I'm not going on a diplomatic mission to another country. I'm going to another planet in another galaxy by means of a device called the Stargate. Millions of years ago there was a race of beings we call the Ancients.

He could also have been calling her cell phone. I always thought they lived together but maybe not. But ITA that they seemed very comfy but lacked passion. I was never comfortable with the situation in Intruder. I thought she was pretty naive to think he'd either want to go to Atlantis or have waited for her. The writers did her a huge disservice there. And it did look like they were preparing to have her move on with John in S2. All the usual signs were there: they got rid of any old relationships, they had her and John grow closer in a personal sense, and as I've seen so many times in other shows, they seemed to glam her up a bit with more make up and a better hair style. Another big 'ol pink elephant holding the "foreshadowing" sign over his head. Any missteps are just badwritingbadwritingbadwriting to me.

[drewandian]

ITA on the frat regs. It was just a convenient excuse for the writers not to do ship. On SG-1 I think they were trying to please the USAF more and had to sort of follow regs but on Atlantis they didn't do that. I guess the need to stay PG was part of the reason but with such a limited dating pool for the military people they sort of wrote themselves into a corner. Why does that not shock me?

the thing is, military people end up in relationships all the time; and for the most part it's ok. The CO's get screwed and in John's case he'd be totally screwed because he's the 'head military guy' and therefore ALL the US military people would be off limits to him. However, if say, Lorne and Cadman hooked up, it'd be all right (as long as they weren't on the same team). (My hubby and I were in the same unit; there was one other married couple in our unit, and lots of people in the unit are dating one another. none of them are officers so they're really not breaking any rules)
On SG1, they were right. Sam and Jack couldn't be together as long as he was her CO - so really not until season 9.
As for their concerns with the PG rating...they don't seem so concerned any more imo....

I remember that Garwin Sanford said that he originally thought they were married and then later was informed that no they weren't. So again as with the original intended ship for John, they reassessed and changed it. I made up in my own mind that she left the video tape because she had been forced to lie to Simon about where she was actually going because he didn't have clearance and she had to leave before it was granted. She left the tape just in case it was. This is the dialogue from the tape:

WEIR (on the TV): Simon, if you're watching this, it means the President has been kind enough to grant you security clearance. (We see a man, obviously Simon, sitting in the living room of the house and watching the video.) I'm not going on a diplomatic mission to another country. I'm going to another planet in another galaxy by means of a device called the Stargate. Millions of years ago there was a race of beings we call the Ancients.

He could also have been calling her cell phone. I always thought they lived together but maybe not. But ITA that they seemed very comfy but lacked passion. I was never comfortable with the situation in Intruder. I thought she was pretty naive to think he'd either want to go to Atlantis or have waited for her. The writers did her a huge disservice there. And it did look like they were preparing to have her move on with John in S2. All the usual signs were there: they got rid of any old relationships, they had her and John grow closer in a personal sense, and as I've seen so many times in other shows, they seemed to glam her up a bit with more make up and a better hair style. Another big 'ol pink elephant holding the "foreshadowing" sign over his head. Any missteps are just badwritingbadwritingbadwriting to me.

ah...lots of good points. And I will admit that a lot of my opinion may be based on the fact that Simon kinda squicks me out (so did Narim, I dunno why...) and once I noticed Sparky that was pretty much all I wanted.
ITA that they totally set everything up for a ship between John and Elizabeth and it kills me that they just abandoned it and denied it because there was SO much they could have done with it.

[Southern Red]

the thing is, military people end up in relationships all the time; and for the most part it's ok. The CO's get screwed and in John's case he'd be totally screwed because he's the 'head military guy' and therefore ALL the US military people would be off limits to him. However, if say, Lorne and Cadman hooked up, it'd be all right (as long as they weren't on the same team). (My hubby and I were in the same unit; there was one other married couple in our unit, and lots of people in the unit are dating one another. none of them are officers so they're really not breaking any rules)
On SG1, they were right. Sam and Jack couldn't be together as long as he was her CO - so really not until season 9.
As for their concerns with the PG rating...they don't seem so concerned any more imo....





ah...lots of good points. And I will admit that a lot of my opinion may be based on the fact that Simon kinda squicks me out (so did Narim, I dunno why...) and once I noticed Sparky that was pretty much all I wanted.
ITA that they totally set everything up for a ship between John and Elizabeth and it kills me that they just abandoned it and denied it because there was SO much they could have done with it.

I know what you're saying on the dating. It would be unreasonable to expect people to be able to control their attractions. The thing I always saw with John was that he could have dated any of the scientists and remember the cute flirting with the dark haired girl in one episode? The question is why didn't he pursue it? I think a relationship with Elizabeth would have been in a gray area. Maybe technically it was against the rules but they seemed to be treated as equals by most everybody including John's superiors after awhile. Now, on the other hand, Teyla would be totally off limits to him unless he moved her to another team. She's a "bud" in ROTC slang and you don't date your buds. When my son was in the Corps of Cadets at VT there was the cutest girl who used to catch a ride home with him. My husband and I loved her and wished they would date but he very firmly said "No, Mom, she's a bud. You don't date your buds. It would feel like incest." I know they didn't all follow that rule, after all there were hormones to account for, but he certainly did. And I also know it was drummed in their heads as a way to let them live in coed dorms without all out orgies, but still. It's a good way to look at the women you serve beside.

You're right. They seem to have abandoned the PG idea and moved into soft porn.

[Eri13]

WOW! Amazing discussion! Yays!

Um, I started quoting, but there's too much, so I'll just add my own thoughts.

On John:

When I think about John's 'starting' point, I go back to:

1) He was the child of a wealthy family. Something happened to his mother; he disliked his father's way of doing things (what I gather is that his father had his life planned out for him). He rebelled against that and cut off communication with his father and his brother. Whatever happened within that family, it caused him to be bottled up emotionally.

2) He enlisted in the military. Nobody knows exactly why--there is never a moment where we hear why John preferred the military, particularly as they're truly regimented. Perhaps because his conglomerate, blue-blood father would have disapproved of his son being 'mere military'.

3) He married Nancy--but that wasn't in rebellion against his father, because his father actually liked Nancy. My presumption is he wanted to find somebody to be with and it didn't work out.

3) John had a history of being troubled in the military, not just Afghanistan. Remember in Intruder he tells Elizabeth "I had people who never thought I'd make it past Captain." We presume he was already a Major when he got his black mark in Afghanistan and was reassigned to Antarctica (otherwise he wouldn't have been promoted to Major). But apparently he had a history of being something of a rebel--perhaps we could call Afghanistan his 'final straw'.

4) Afghanistan saw him stop to rescue friends who were in danger, and he failed, even though he tried. I think it's important to remember that, because I think that's why he's a die hard 'leave no man behind' in Atlantis.

5) We don't know his military history, but based on his skill and what we saw of him in "The Eye" we presume he's got special ops training and some kind of special clearance (as he couldn't tell Nancy what he was doing most of the time).

6) He was okay with losing Nancy--I think he mirrors Elizabeth in the relationship aspect of his life. For both of them, personal relationships came second. Both he and Elizabeth treated their significant others as less important than 'the job'.

7) When he's assigned to Antarctica, he tells Jack "I like it here" which Jack doesn't buy at all. (His mocking him in Rising proves that to me).

8) One thing to remember that no one's brought up yet--Elizabeth offered John the role of being on the expedition and he sorta turned it down at first glance. Why? I do think he was a little freaked out by what happened, and after Elizabeth immediately jumps on him to go with her he's overwhelmed. Then, he's not given a lot of time to mull it over. Here's his conversation with Jack:

SHEPPARD: All due respect, Sir, we were just attacked by an alien missile. Then I found out I have some mutant gene. Then there's this Stargate thing and these exhibitions to other galaxies
O'NEILL: You know, this isn't about you Sheppard. It's a lot bigger than that.
SHEPPARD: Right now, at this very second, whether I decide to go on this mission or not seems to be about me.
O'NEILL: Let me ask you something. Why did you become a pilot?
SHEPPARD: I think people who don't want to fly are crazy
O'NEILL: and I think people who don't want to go through the Stargate are equally as whacked. Now if you can't give me a yes by the time we reach McMurdo, I don't even want you

Finally, he seems to flip a coin to determine if he should go. There's not a lot there to prove to me that he went to Atlantis because he feels called to it or because it's his last ditch attempt to live. I think at this point, he feels it's an adventure and, also, because what does he have to lose?

However--I do think he recognizes that Weir seems to have a special kind of interest in him, but I think some of that thinks its for his special ops training. His telling her "Doctor, this is why you brought me here" when he figures out how to fly the jumper that will allow him to rescue Sumner convinces me of that. But...at the end of everything, he maybe starts to understand that she is more interested in just the tactical or the gene. She doesn't treat him like simply a soldier. She calls him John, she places trust in him, she reassures him that his decisions were right. At the end of Rising, she affirms his side of the argument and shows that she believes in him.

I think that is where the change begins. From being along for the ride to being devoted to her and Atlantis. As you go through the early parts of the story, you see how he is being affected. 38 Minutes, for example--what could he have possibly had to say that was so dire when he thought he was going to die? It was only a few weeks into the mission--but it was something he wanted to say to Elizabeth personally, and something personal enough he feels embarrassed to repeat it. In Suspicion he supports her position. Then, of course, we have "The Eye" and what happens there. By "Hot Zone" he's referring to her by her name, and the argument they have is much more personal (It's not Sumner he's going after now, it's the guy threatening her and the Control room.) Before I Sleep finds him giving her a birthday gift. And, of course, the ultimate display of trust and unity, Siege II, when he puts his position (and potential future) on the line to demand she be allowed to be a part of the planning with Everett.

What does all this mean? It means when I write John, I see him as a guy who felt he didn't fit; who was looking for a place where he belonged. I think Antarctica was the 'final straw' and he admitted to himself he'd failed to find it, so he accepts his fate and makes the best of it. He's not a brooder. His contentment for being there was that he could be himself, without irritating anyone. When he goes to Atlantis it is because it's something different and that sense of 'what have I got to lose?' And maybe because, as he tells Jack 'anyone who doesn't want to fly is crazy' and Jack, understanding that, retorts 'you might just love this as much, idiot.'

But--Elizabeth took a chance on him, and as he starts to realize he does fit on Atlantis, and that it is that Home and Family he's been searching for all his life, I think he attributes that to her, because if she hadn't taken that chance, he wouldn't be there. That's why he's close and protective of her, and why she's protective of him.

I don't see anything of the 'psycho'. He never acts that way, ever. He's got a side to him that's ruthless, but I expect that with his resume as we presume it was. He's trained to kill an enemy. But John's the type that has to be pushed to that point, which is why an argument that he's psycho is ridiculous.

I also think he's sacrificial, not suicidal. I don't see it as 'willing to die' as much as 'not afraid to die'. He's a man with a sense of purpose, and for a large part of his life, his principles and his life were the only things he had control over. I think because of that he's willing to make sacrifices, not because he wants to per se, but because it's the easier choice for him. What is his life to everyone else? He's not filled with ego or this belief that he has to live to save everyone else (Rodney). He believes if he can save everyone at the cost of his life, he'll do it. Does he want to die? No. If you watch "Conversion" you'll see that. He wants to live. He wants to go on that mission to save himself. But he doesn't want anyone else dying for him.

I do think John has a more stable sense of self than Elizabeth. He knows his limits, knows what he's about, knows what works for him and what doesn't. Rarely do we get a side to Sheppard we don't understand. He doesn't walk around in dark moods. He's generally happy-go-lucky, and while part of that is a cover-up, I think most of it is just who he is. How he's learned to deal with the negative in his life by enjoying the positive, whatever that might be, even if it's just flying choppers in Antarctica.

I don't think, if he didn't have that genial side to him that does care, Elizabeth would have trusted him. She sees in him the goodness. And that in the end is what it boils down to, that despite his issues, John is truly a good man. Where ever do we see him as a bad man? We DON'T. How can people forget that? He's not bad. He's not evil. Yes, he has his moments of weakness or ruthlessness, but often for a good cause. Threaten his people, he's going to tactically do what's smartest--take you out. But many times it was the last resort. Listen to him in "Letters From Pegasus" as Teyla is going on and on about saving her friends. He's constantly telling her 'he can't' but in the end, he finds as best a way as he could.

With Elizabeth, that gets emphasized to me by how much and how often she defends him to people. In "Conversion" we see her hackles raised by Caldwell because Caldwell is taking him out of the picture so soon and she really doesn't like that. Why is never truly explained, though Caldwell brushes the issue with his 'you two are close, aren't you?' and her response of 'we've been through a lot together'. Meaning what? That she trusts him beyond anyone else and doesn't want to lose him. Why? I am not of the opinion she's desperately in love with him. But I do think she cares about him more deeply than she can explain and the reason is, she knows him, she trusts him, she loves him in the sense of a person she cares about and believes in. Because he's earned that from her and because, overall, he's the type of person people can't help but care about.

Building beyond that is the realization that everyone else on Atlantis loves and trusts him too. His military, his friends, his people. Do we ever see anyone in his command undermine him (other than Bates, who wasn't really of his command--and he challenges him on the grounds he cares too much!!) No. And we see people risking their lives to save him time after time. I think perhaps that speaks best as to Sheppard's mental state. If people didn't trust him, they wouldn't have been so loyal. And they were more than loyal, they were devoted. Because he was a good man who those people trusted beyond everything. Nobody quibbles with that. So where the determination that he is twisted, dark, or a sociopath? Every truly troubled hero has moments where they make people doubt them. John never really does.

*coughs* That was a lot. I've already sort of mused on Elizabeth previously, so I'll leave it at John for now?

[Southern Red]

I do think John has a more stable sense of self than Elizabeth. He knows his limits, knows what he's about, knows what works for him and what doesn't. Rarely do we get a side to Sheppard we don't understand. He doesn't walk around in dark moods. He's generally happy-go-lucky, and while part of that is a cover-up, I think most of it is just who he is. How he's learned to deal with the negative in his life by enjoying the positive, whatever that might be, even if it's just flying choppers in Antarctica.

I'm quoting the bits I want to reply to but that assessment of John was just amazing. That's mostly the way I see him. I think we saw him less than happy-go-lucky at times, though. Epiphany and Doppelganger are two. Epiphany when he thought maybe his loyalty had been misplaced and maybe he cared more than his friends did. I'm always struck by how he lashed out at Elizabeth when they found him. Maybe because she was the last one he expected to give up on him? And Doppelganger was when he was faced with the soul-crushing realization that his friends were in danger because of him. The death of Kate was just the last straw there. Remember how he joked in the beginning about their dreams? "Did I have a goatee?" But later it got a lot more serious and we saw him just withdraw from everybody and brood about it. But even then he realized he needed to speak to Teyla about what had happened and was about to go find her when she came to him. In spite of how he is hurting he still thinks about his friends first.

I don't think, if he didn't have that genial side to him that does care, Elizabeth would have trusted him. She sees in him the goodness. And that in the end is what it boils down to, that despite his issues, John is truly a good man. Where ever do we see him as a bad man? We DON'T. How can people forget that? He's not bad. He's not evil. Yes, he has his moments of weakness or ruthlessness, but often for a good cause. Threaten his people, he's going to tactically do what's smartest--take you out. But many times it was the last resort. Listen to him in "Letters From Pegasus" as Teyla is going on and on about saving her friends. He's constantly telling her 'he can't' but in the end, he finds as best a way as he could.

And time and again Elizabeth sent him on missions where he had to rely on his powers of persuasion to get what they needed. Who would send a known mental case to do that? Every time John had to deal with cultures on other planets he was amiable, friendly, generous and fair. Even those kids took to him right away. You're right, there is no canon evidence that he is anything but mentally balanced.

[Eri13]

I'm quoting the bits I want to reply to but that assessment of John was just amazing. That's mostly the way I see him. I think we saw him less than happy-go-lucky at times, though. Epiphany and Doppelganger are two. Epiphany when he thought maybe his loyalty had been misplaced and maybe he cared more than his friends did. I'm always struck by how he lashed out at Elizabeth when they found him. Maybe because she was the last one he expected to give up on him? And Doppelganger was when he was faced with the soul-crushing realization that his friends were in danger because of him. The death of Kate was just the last straw there. Remember how he joked in the beginning about their dreams? "Did I have a goatee?" But later it got a lot more serious and we saw him just withdraw from everybody and brood about it. But even then he realized he needed to speak to Teyla about what had happened and was about to go find her when she came to him. In spite of how he is hurting he still thinks about his friends first.

And time and again Elizabeth sent him on missions where he had to rely on his powers of persuasion to get what they needed. Who would send a known mental case to do that? Every time John had to deal with cultures on other planets he was amiable, friendly, generous and fair. Even those kids took to him right away. You're right, there is no canon evidence that he is anything but mentally balanced.

The top part you mention is the part I can't argue on as well (though I'm getting there) and that's what happened after "Lifeline". He does lose the happy-go-lucky some; I think that's because, unlike all the rest of his life, he is heavily invested in Atlantis now--it IS his life--and when he loses a part of that, it deeply affects him. He does change. You put your heart into something--you are open to love and get loved in return--but when you lose that, it's also a greater, harder, deeper loss. This is what happened to John, IMO, when everything changed and he lost Elizabeth and Carson.

Elizabeth in particular, because from an objective standpoint she was the first who accepted him; the first he trusted and who trusted him. Plus, they being co-leaders, relying on one another, and just understanding each other, too, played a big part in his life on Atlantis. That is heavily recognized in canon and vocalized by Caldwell in "Conversion", and also in "Trinity" when Rodney tells John Elizabeth will listen to him. In losing Elizabeth, John lost a little part of his own heart, whether you think it's romantic or not, and that changes a person, and there is no going back from a change that great.

Through Season 4, that loss is pretty easily communicated through his demeanor. I have to wait and see what Season 5 brings for me personally, but I do see a dynamic shift in John so far.

[nephtys59]

This is more and more interesting.
Good analysis Eri13!!!

BTW, I never thought John needed to be "saved" by Elizabeth or anybody else, but I do believe he needed someone to push and trust him enough to make him give and show THE BEST of himself.
Just as I believe that John returned the favour to Elizabeth

Dr. House quote: "You push my buttons, I push yours"

Didn't J&E do the same?

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday! And wow, the awesome discussion continues!

Everybody's made such great points already that I don't really know what else I could say to add to it, so I'll just comment on a few points that piqued my interest...

My thoughts on the whole Elizabeth/Simon thing (and the goodbye video): I always got the impression that we were supposed to believe that they had been together for quite some time and were pretty serious, even though they weren't living together (he calls her place, gets that 'this number is out of service' recording). So, if they're that close and she's that invested in their relationship, why would she just give him a video? Especially one she's not even sure he'll be allowed to watch? I mean, I've been married for six years and I make it a point to say goodbye and I love you to hubby before I take the kids to the bus stop down the street....I'm pretty sure I'd do more than make a video if I was going to another galaxy. I'm just sayin...
I think (and this is just my opinion and I apparently put way more thought into these things than maybe I should) that they're relationship had reached that 'there's no fiery passion and I'm kinda over you but you're known and comfortable so I don't see any reason to change status quo for right now' point. I know that the stuff in "Home" turns out to be an illusion, but Elizabeth's reactions to her illusion are very real...and the feeling I got from them were feelings of relief at seeing someone comfortable and at the opportunity to just relax and be...again, I don't see much passion, not the kind that you feel when you've been away from someone you love ('can't live without') for an extended period of time. (I could just be biased because Simon creeps me out a little, I dunno). Then with "Intruder", I still feel like she's more interested in getting him to Atlantis for Atlantis' sake and because of her passion for the city and the expedition and the experience than for her passion for Simon and her commitment to their relationship. And I think she was ultimately more hurt by the realization that he'd moved on so quickly after her leaving because the thought that he would had never occurred to her than she was by the thought of the relationship being over. I'm not saying that the whole first year she was necessarily harboring feelings for John and that's why she had moved on from Simon, but I definitely think that her relationship with Simon was over long before the "official" break up in Intruder.
What does this all mean for John and Elizabeth? I dunno...lol...except that it's pretty clear that she's passionate about her work and Atlantis and needs to be with someone who feels and understands that passion (and that would be John, obviously)

That's how I saw the Elizabeth/Simon relationship, as well. They'd been together for so long that they were kind of coasting along in a comfort zone that had lost meaning for them. It had become habit, rather than desire.

On John respecting her. When he said that he respected Carter more than any other commanding officer, I just went "huh?" because I never saw him show a lot of respect for her. Yeah, Elizabeth was not his commanding officer, so that didn't pertain to her but I thought Carter let him run all over her. He was a lot more out of control with her than with Elizabeth. That was just part of the badwritingbadwritingbadwriting to me. It's so hard to analyze this show without seeing the pink elephant in the tutu in the middle of the room with the letters "TPTB" on its chest.

No kidding. To me, it seemed that Carter was pretty much written as a warm body to fill the chair and rubber stamp everything, and John's behavior (heck, everyone's behavior!) reinforced that. Curiously, Woolsey seemed to be not as much of a placeholder.

ITA on the frat regs. It was just a convenient excuse for the writers not to do ship. On SG-1 I think they were trying to please the USAF more and had to sort of follow regs but on Atlantis they didn't do that. I guess the need to stay PG was part of the reason but with such a limited dating pool for the military people they sort of wrote themselves into a corner. Why does that not shock me?

And then there's also that Atlantis is so isolated in terms of its location. Even after they reconnect with Earth, it's still an eighteen-day trip by ship from Earth to Atlantis, so it's not like people can just pop through the gate for a trip home anytime they feel like it. That would certainly squash a lot of Earth relationships right there.

I remember that Garwin Sanford said that he originally thought they were married and then later was informed that no they weren't. So again as with the original intended ship for John, they reassessed and changed it. I made up in my own mind that she left the video tape because she had been forced to lie to Simon about where she was actually going because he didn't have clearance and she had to leave before it was granted. She left the tape just in case it was. This is the dialogue from the tape:

WEIR (on the TV): Simon, if you're watching this, it means the President has been kind enough to grant you security clearance. (We see a man, obviously Simon, sitting in the living room of the house and watching the video.) I'm not going on a diplomatic mission to another country. I'm going to another planet in another galaxy by means of a device called the Stargate. Millions of years ago there was a race of beings we call the Ancients.

He could also have been calling her cell phone. I always thought they lived together but maybe not. But ITA that they seemed very comfy but lacked passion. I was never comfortable with the situation in Intruder. I thought she was pretty naive to think he'd either want to go to Atlantis or have waited for her. The writers did her a huge disservice there. And it did look like they were preparing to have her move on with John in S2. All the usual signs were there: they got rid of any old relationships, they had her and John grow closer in a personal sense, and as I've seen so many times in other shows, they seemed to glam her up a bit with more make up and a better hair style. Another big 'ol pink elephant holding the "foreshadowing" sign over his head. Any missteps are just badwritingbadwritingbadwriting to me.

I agree, they had to have at least been considering going with a Sheppard/Weir relationship, or at least hinting at it. Why they never went further when it was obviously the relationship that had the strongest actor chemistry to back it up, I'll never understand.

ah...lots of good points. And I will admit that a lot of my opinion may be based on the fact that Simon kinda squicks me out (so did Narim, I dunno why...) and once I noticed Sparky that was pretty much all I wanted.
ITA that they totally set everything up for a ship between John and Elizabeth and it kills me that they just abandoned it and denied it because there was SO much they could have done with it.

And that includes what they could've done with it after Lifeline... ZOMG, the angst!

I know what you're saying on the dating. It would be unreasonable to expect people to be able to control their attractions. The thing I always saw with John was that he could have dated any of the scientists and remember the cute flirting with the dark haired girl in one episode? The question is why didn't he pursue it? I think a relationship with Elizabeth would have been in a gray area. Maybe technically it was against the rules but they seemed to be treated as equals by most everybody including John's superiors after awhile. Now, on the other hand, Teyla would be totally off limits to him unless he moved her to another team. She's a "bud" in ROTC slang and you don't date your buds. When my son was in the Corps of Cadets at VT there was the cutest girl who used to catch a ride home with him. My husband and I loved her and wished they would date but he very firmly said "No, Mom, she's a bud. You don't date your buds. It would feel like incest." I know they didn't all follow that rule, after all there were hormones to account for, but he certainly did. And I also know it was drummed in their heads as a way to let them live in coed dorms without all out orgies, but still. It's a good way to look at the women you serve beside.

You're right. They seem to have abandoned the PG idea and moved into soft porn.

*snorts*

This is more and more interesting.
Good analysis Eri13!!!

BTW, I never thought John needed to be "saved" by Elizabeth or anybody else, but I do believe he needed someone to push and trust him enough to make him give and show THE BEST of himself.
Just as I believe that John returned the favour to Elizabeth

Dr. House quote: "You push my buttons, I push yours"

Didn't J&E do the same?

They did indeed.

[Probie]

I agree with nephty. Your conversation is interesting. Too tired to give my opinion in english for the moment.
But I can do a monologue about them in french if you want.lol

I was bored. So I watched some sparky vids on youtube. Two months without see them. I feel nostalgic now and so disappointed by this show. I'm starting to lose my love for this show and I find it sad. (It's not only because Sparky is not on the show.) Maybe you can help me.lol

[Scary Kitty]

I agree with nephty. Your conversation is interesting. Too tired to give my opinion in english for the moment.
But I can do a monologue about them in french if you want.lol

I was bored. So I watched some sparky vids on youtube. Two months without see them. I feel nostalgic now and so disappointed by this show. I'm starting to lose my love for this show and I find it sad. (It's not only because Sparky is not on the show.) Maybe you can help me.lol

Ohnoes!

Hmm, maybe it's time to move on to discussions for the next episode of SS6... which episode are we up to now?

[Eri13]

Ohnoes!

Hmm, maybe it's time to move on to discussions for the next episode of SS6... which episode are we up to now?

Ummm...let's see.

We're up to Episode 8: The Wraith Worshipper episode.
Writer: Erin87
Tentative suggested Titles: The Sect

General idea is at our journal. Open for discussion!