Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Bama]

I agree about John being a bit of a loner. Indeed, we have not been told that directly, or shown overwhelming amounts of evidence, but the implications are there. For example, when John was deliberating about whether or not to go on the Atlantis expedition, we see him sitting, alone, in a park. When he returned to

Spoiler:

earth in "Intruder", we only see him with Ford's cousin--not his own family, not even a pet

. He obviously does enjoy other people and social activity--he is not "un-social", but seems to avoide real communication, or committed relationship--except when with Elizabeth. John immediately puts the walls up in any given situation. He immediately resorts to sarcasm, or completely assumes the role of colonel/leader. With women, as SouthernRed pointed out, John flirts in an almost rehearsed manner. Which all connotes that John has never been in , or hasn't recently been in a committed relationship, or an honest friendship.

Perhaps John was not always this way--the events alluded to in

Spoiler:

"Home" about Afghanistan, might be the source of his attitudes.

. About "War and Peace"--I think that was an important reference (I'll post on that one later--I'm sure you're all thrilled! lol). I think "Epiphany" will be a hgely important ep for John's character development and I think Liz will be a part of that. Granted, her involvment may come later (perhaps a conversation in a later ep about what happend during the events of "Epiphany", but we know Liz is the only candidate Shep is likely to open up to).

John has something in his past, that "black mark", or perhaps something much more deeply rooted, that is preventing him from being completely open with people.

This whole discussion about Liz and John being loners, and unable to open up reminds me of "Thirty Eight Minutes" and "Conversion". In both eps we saw John and iz being unable to communicate something to each other even though extreme events forced their hands. What did they have to say? I'm hoping the following eps will help enlighten us. Maybe some others here have a theory about their unspoken words?

This is a very enjoyable thread--the posts are so thought provoking you can spend hundreds of words responding to them!

Keep up the good work,

Royal

Royal, honey, I know *I'm* thrilled that you're going to post later!

I love your thoughts on this stuff! Wonderful post!

What you pointed out about him being alone in the park goes along with 'LFP' where he had no one to send a message to and then, we have the crazy party at his 'pad' in 'Home' that he wasn't truly comfortable with but just keeps being drawn to Elizabeth...(BTW, I think that scene alone shows how tired he is of 'pretending' and how close he is to being emotionally READY for a real relationship with Elizabeth) But I regress...

Those scenes are all just terrific hinter pointers that the John of the 'inside' isn't the John we get on the outside. I think Southern makes a great point about his almost programmed reaction to a good-looking woman. Like Southern said, he even does it with Teyla when he first meets her. He's all charm and male appreciation and the like and I think that is what makes his interaction with Elizabeth all the more emphasized. People can say "oh, well, he doesn't act that way with her because he thinks she's an ugly dog" or he's different with her because "she's his commander" and all that but it's more than that and I think most people with any sense of how people react know better. Your allusion to their individual behavior in 'Conversion' and '38 mins' is a great example of 'how' the interaction is so very different and extra important for them both. There is such a *will* and a deep *want* between them to reach out to the other and ask for more and give more but something is holding each of them back. As we suspect, it may just be that they're afraid to lay their heart on the line with the other for fear of doing something personally that would hurt their professional relationship BUT-the very fact that those eps highlight just how much each of them has *thought* about it and deeply *wants* it in regard to the other is a really big ANVIL imo.

And yeah, you watch what happens with Ephiphany.

Spoiler:

It will be a 'John' ep but wait and see *who* is tied in with him in it in an indirect way as he finds his way from his 'darkness' into 'light'.

Hint: Her last name starts with 'W'.

Look forward to your post about 'home' and 'war and peace'. (Maybe I'm reading too deeply into the symbolism but that title and book itself to me is just a big ol' 'symbol' of THEM and their intertwined relationship.
John = war/ Elizabeth =Peace) but I'll wait on your comments to comment any further.

-B

[Southern Red]

This whole discussion about Liz and John being loners, and unable to open up reminds me of "Thirty Eight Minutes" and "Conversion". In both eps we saw John and iz being unable to communicate something to each other even though extreme events forced their hands. What did they have to say? I'm hoping the following eps will help enlighten us. Maybe some others here have a theory about their unspoken words?

Royal

Good points. I also saw

Spoiler:

in the few minutes after the hug, their awkwardness with each other and its obvious impact on both of them as evidence of their struggle with communication.

They can talk volumes about the running of Atlantis, do briefings and mission reports, deal with Caldwell and his ilk, even argue with passion and conviction, but when it comes to something personal, no dice. Breathlessness and studdering. The unspoken event that just screamed to me was when in the Eye when he assured her she would be OK, grabbed her hand and led her off to safety instead of throwing his arms around her and telling her "I'm here now. You're safe. There's nothing to worry about." A sweet gesture that got the idea across without many words. I can't see him doing the same with Rodney. "Come on McKay. Suck it up, danger's over."

[mentalmichael]

What you pointed out about him being alone in the park goes along with 'LFP' where he had no one to send a message to and then, we have the crazy party at his 'pad' in 'Home' that he wasn't truly comfortable with but just keeps being drawn to Elizabeth...(BTW, I think that scene alone shows how close to READY he is for a real relationship with Elizabeth) But I regress...
-B

Ok, I really don't want to be one of those people who pushes their opinions in other people's faces but....
In Home he was having a party with dead people!!!!!!!!! In a bachelor pad that didn't exist!!!!!!!!! and he knew! therefore its pretty easy to understand the uncomfortableness

[florence]

Michael, did you just call me 'simple-minded'?!! LOL! If the shoe fits...

So you think John's a socializer? I do think he definitely *can* be outgoing when he wants to be and we've not really been given 'enough' personal on him to make an assured statement most likely but I'm going with my 'gut' feeling. I think he lives sort of a dual life. He's complex...all flirts and smiles and easy-going on the outside but on the inside, he seems deeper and full of covered 'hurt'. Call it ladies 'intuition' on this one if you will more than any kind of huge, overwhelming evidence.

I'd love to hear your 'take' on his character though. John baffles me at times a little but I'm getting a little better handle on him. (Don't I wish literally!) heh.

I'm way behind in this discussion, but Bama you've said what I wanted to say in my 1st post. IMO John can be at ease with friends around, but in the end he likes to be alone... I don't know either how to explain it other than ladies intuition...
That's one of the reasons why I'd like to know a bit more about Sheppard's background.

[xkawaiix]

I'm way behind in this discussion, but Bama you've said what I wanted to say in my 1st post. IMO John can be at ease with friends around, but in the end he likes to be alone... I don't know either how to explain it other than ladies intuition...
That's one of the reasons why I'd like to know a bit more about Sheppard's background.

ITA Flo! They have this certain shyness during the hug since they're not use to being really close like that. (Although there are times when they're practically ontop of each other! )
Oh and I think I read somewhere or someone mentioned that

Spoiler:

we might see bit's of John's back story in Epiphany. Or was it another episode?

[Bama]

Ok, I really don't want to be one of those people who pushes their opinions in other people's faces but....
In Home he was having a party with dead people!!!!!!!!! In a bachelor pad that didn't exist!!!!!!!!! and he knew! therefore its pretty easy to understand the uncomfortableness

LOL! With women, it's never that simple! We 'see' symbolism in everything...*winkers* I paid a lot of attention in all those psych classes I had to take. Too much I fear. People and their actions and thoughts have always fascinated me and I always think they're symbolic of something else. Seriously though, imo that ep and those scenes are more multi-layered and meaningful than just John seeing 'dead people'. 'Home' may be one of the best character study eps and multi-layered eps we've had.

[Rubicon]

Ok, I really don't want to be one of those people who pushes their opinions in other people's faces but....
In Home he was having a party with dead people!!!!!!!!! In a bachelor pad that didn't exist!!!!!!!!! and he knew! therefore its pretty easy to understand the uncomfortableness

You are not wrong.

But he was concerned about E. so-- squee!

[Luz]

Ok, I really don't want to be one of those people who pushes their opinions in other people's faces but....
In Home he was having a party with dead people!!!!!!!!! In a bachelor pad that didn't exist!!!!!!!!! and he knew! therefore its pretty easy to understand the uncomfortableness

I don't think it was so much him being uncomfortable at the party, it was more like he knew it was all bogus, and just wanted to know WTF was going on (he seemed pretty happy to at least have beer). And those dead people were there because he knew how to manip that "reality" and just wanted to test it.

I'm way behind in this discussion, but Bama you've said what I wanted to say in my 1st post. IMO John can be at ease with friends around, but in the end he likes to be alone... I don't know either how to explain it other than ladies intuition...
That's one of the reasons why I'd like to know a bit more about Sheppard's background.

He seems to get along with people well enough, specialy with the ladies, he's a charmer. About him being a loner, i don't know, i haven't made up my mind yet.
And here i'll go bit XF, Mulder was a loner, and it seemed he loved pissing people off. That's something i don't see on Sheps, he seems to like to make friends. At the beginning he seemed kind of obsessed with finding new friends. Maybe he likes being a team player as long as he is the one who gets to lead the team?.

LOL! With women, it's never that simple! We 'see' symbolism in everything...*winkers* I paid a lot of attention in all those psych classes I had to take. Too much I fear. People and their actions and thoughts have always fascinated me and I always think they're symbolic of something else. Seriously though, imo that ep and those scenes are more multi-layered and meaningful than just John seeing 'dead people'. 'Home' may be one of the best character study eps and multi-layered eps we've had.

ARRRGGGHHH!!!, symbolism, i think i've been traumatized by HP shippers, i can't hear that word without shuddering, lol.
Though i agree Home is so full of layers, and there are so many little details laying there waiting to be discovered. But i don't think the dead people mean anything special at all, just Sheppard playing, me thinks.

[Bama]

Ok, I really don't want to be one of those people who pushes their opinions in other people's faces but....
In Home he was having a party with dead people!!!!!!!!! In a bachelor pad that didn't exist!!!!!!!!! and he knew! therefore its pretty easy to understand the uncomfortableness

Hmmm...maybe the right word to use is not 'discomfort' but rather 'disinterest'. Those images and people and events were drawn from his subconscious mind. His mind helped 'create' those images of 'dead people' and the 'cool bachelor life' (that I imagine was in part much like his wilder, youthful days) and yet it nor Teyla, doing her best impression of interested Earth girlfriend in hot clothing, was enough to draw him into the fantasy that he could have accepted.

Just as Elizabeth's created her images of what she thought she wanted from Simon and yet, both of them somehow knew it wasn't a right 'fit' for them. And who did John 'seek' out during the entire episode? I don't think that's just because he was 'freaked' either. Even when he hadn't totally 'figured things out' or 'saw dead people', he was still thinking about her.

Is it interesting to anyone else that John and Elizabeth began to figure it out when Rodney didn't? He accepted the fantasy more readily because? He wanted it more?

I think there's a lot, lot to 'see' about John in 'Home' if you dig into it and really look at it. There's an undercurrent there in those scenes...an apathy that I think truly exists for him now in regard to former life things that at one time, might have held him enthralled.

[Bama]

Though i agree Home is so full of layers, and there are so many little details laying there waiting to be discovered. But i don't think the dead people mean anything special at all, just Sheppard playing, me thinks.

Heh. In psych, seeing 'dead people' always means something!

I choose to think that John seeing 'dead people' was sort of like Elizabeth 'feeling' Simon's kiss was 'wrong'. It was the 'moment' that their true selves went Eureka! This life is NOT for me any longer...this is not what I really want. This life is DEAD to me.

If we accept that Elizabeth's perfect life was being created for her based on what was in her head, then do we accept the same about John? And yet, a part of them-a 'new' part of them?- refused to accept it. For the sake of Atlantis only? I think not. I think they've learned a lot about themselves already in their short time in Atlantis at the time of 'Home' and the things and people and events that at one time might have 'satisfied' them would not any longer. The pull was stronger toward each other and toward their new home together.

call me crazy but the layers are there for deeper interpretation on this one imo...

[Luz]

Heh. In psych, seeing 'dead people' always means something!

I choose to think that John seeing 'dead people' was sort of like Elizabeth 'feeling' Simon's 'wrong' kiss.
It was the 'moment' that their true selves went Eureka! This life is NOT for me any longer...this is not what I really want. This life is DEAD to me.

If we accept that Elizabeth's perfect life was being created for her based on what was in her head, then do we accept the same about John? And yet, a part of them-a 'new' part of them?- refused to accept it. For the sake of Atlantis only? I think not. I think they've learned a lot about themselves already in their short time in Atlantis at the time of 'Home' and the things and people and events that at one time might have 'satisfied' them would not any longer. The pull was stronger toward each other and toward their new home together.

call me crazy but the layers are there for deeper interpretation on this one imo...

Yeah, in this episode they learned a lot about themselves, it was quite a character exploration piece. But with Sheppard it was different because unlike Rodney, and Weir, Sheppard could manipulate his reality. The mist put Teyla there, but it seemed like Sheppard put the rest, "uhmmm, this is weird, let's give it a try", "how about you give me a limo?", "good mist", "now take me to the nice dream bachelor flat i've never lived on", "i'm thirsty be a good host and share some beer will yah?". And then there came the dead buddies, and there was a teacher for elementary school or high school?. He was totally playing with the 'reality', in the end when he learns he could have conjured up anything he wanted he even gave Weir a look "i'd kick myself", he, he, loved that btw.
Weir might have started to suspect when Simon kissed her (ugly-haired boy wasn't that good a kisser huh?), Rodney didn't seem to mind (maybe because he had Weir all to himself), only suspected when the laws of physics failed him. But it seems Sheppard suspected all along, and could play with that fake world.

[Royal_Nonesuch]

On the subject of symbolism, I think this ship in particular relies on symbolism and subtext, so it's important to look at the little things. The writers are practically begging us to read into gesures, looks and the lack of physical intimacy. Also, especially in an ep like "Home", I think there are many layers that deserve to be examined. The writers only have so much time to tell a story and they're working in a visual medium. They have to make the most of what they have which makes me believe that TPTB have added a number of layers to each scene and emphasis on specific images.

michael, you're right definitely on the surface a party with dead guests would certainly be disturbing, but I think by the time the dead people showed up, John had already decided that it was a "false" world (granted that would still be unnerving, but his thoughts were still focused on Atlantis and Elizabeth). I think Mel mentioned, probably 200 pages ago, that John was testing his enviroment at that point, so he wasn't entirely disturbed by it--he knew it was all false. [EDIT: Luz just commented the same above, and put it very well]

This ep has generated so much discussion--it is filled with chracter hints. Alot of what we know about Atlantis' leads comes from this ep, so reading into more really helps define the characters. Maybe down the road we'll get an equally enlightening ep that will explain, or confirm some of what we have speculated.

Question, did Liz share in Rodney's world the way Teyla did with Shep? It seemed that was the case, but I don't remember it being explicitly stated.

Thanks,

Royal

[Melyanna]

Hmmm...maybe the right word to use is not 'discomfort' but rather 'disinterest'. Those images and people and events were drawn from his subconscious mind. His mind helped 'create' those images of 'dead people' and the 'cool bachelor life' (that I imagine was in part much like his wilder, youthful days) and yet it nor Teyla, doing her best impression of interested Earth girlfriend in hot clothing, was enough to draw him into the fantasy that he could have accepted.

Just as Elizabeth's created her images of what she thought she wanted from Simon and yet, both of them somehow knew it wasn't a right 'fit' for them. And who did John 'seek' out during the entire episode? I don't think that's just because he was 'freaked' either. Even when he hadn't totally 'figured things out' or 'saw dead people' and he was still thinking about her.

I'm not convinced this isn't reading too much into it, or just tacking the wrong direction. John's first indication that something was wrong was when Hammond was being so nice to him. From then on out he was wary. I think it was Easter Lily who made the point a few weeks back that John knew Elizabeth was supposed to be there, and that he was fairly certain that he was being messed with somehow. He knew there was a problem and that he couldn't trust even the people who were supposed to be there. He knows that the others can handle themselves, as can he, but he has absolutely no idea where Elizabeth is and he knows she's less able to get out of a serious situation without assistance.

Is it interesting to anyone else that John and Elizabeth began to figure it out when Rodney didn't? He accepted the fantasy more readily because? He wanted it more?

I think there's a lot, lot to 'see' about John in 'Home' if you dig into it and really look at it. There's an undercurrent there in those scenes...an apathy that I think truly exists for him now in regard to former life things that at one time, might have held him enthralled.

The episode reveals a lot about how the characters define reality. For Rodney, it's science – he doesn't question a thing until the numbers aren't making sense. For John, it's the military. He was probably banking on a tough fight with his superiors over what happened to Sumner. For Elizabeth, it's other people. First it was Simon, and then she was told that John had agreed to her removal from command. These are the truths they know, the things they will relinquish last. And that's why the mist couldn't convince them it was real – it didn't understand that their lives were bigger than the things surrounding them.

[florence]

Just as Elizabeth's created her images of what she thought she wanted from Simon and yet, both of them somehow knew it wasn't a right 'fit' for them. And who did John 'seek' out during the entire episode? I don't think that's just because he was 'freaked' either. Even when he hadn't totally 'figured things out' or 'saw dead people' and he was still thinking about her.

Hmm, I think you're digging a bit too much here ! I'm not sure that he was already thinking about her that way... in fact, I'm not sure he's thinking about her that way now. IMO they're just becoming friends for the moment and there's still a long road to the next step... but I'm sure they'll reach it when the time will be right !

I think he was wondering about Elizabeth because for him, Elizabeth and Atlantis are linked together. He wouldn't want to have one without the other. Elizabeth is Atlantis. And Atlantis is home for him now... so Elizabeth is home ! Hey, I love my logic tonight !
Btw, she said the same thing in Siege III

Spoiler:

after he had called "Hey, I'm home" and that she'd welcomed him with a hug : "Yes, you are... "

Anyway, I think I had a point there somewhere... ah yes ! Why he was looking for her in Home... Because she's his touchstone when it comes to Atlantis (sweet XF memories... )

Argh ! I was coming in this thread to explain that I didn't think they were already *there*, and now I'm saying that they were emotionally linked in Home... This thread has certainly its way to change people's mind !
Ah, I really love that ship, it has so much potential... I only hope TPTB won't screw it up...

[Bama]

Yeah, in this episode they learned a lot about themselves, it was quite a character exploration piece. But with Sheppard it was different because unlike Rodney, and Weir, Sheppard could manipulate his reality. The mist put Teyla there, but it seemed like Sheppard put the rest, "uhmmm, this is weird, let's give it a try", "how about you give me a limo?", "good mist", "now take me to the nice dream bachelor flat i've never lived on", "i'm thirsty be a good host and share some beer will yah?". And then there came the dead buddies, and there was a teacher for elementary school or high school?. He was totally playing with the 'reality', in the end when he learns he could have conjured up anything he wanted he even gave Weir a look "i'd kick myself", he, he, loved that btw.
Weir might have started to suspect when Simon kissed her (ugly-haired boy wasn't that good a kisser huh?), Rodney didn't seem to mind (maybe because he had Weir all to himself), only suspected when the laws of physics failed him. But it seems Sheppard suspected all along, and could play with that fake world.

Did we get an explanation as to why Shep was more able to manipulate his more than the others?

And, when do you think he finally 'figured' it out? He certainly was suspecting something wasn't 'right' but at what point did he finally accept it was completely wrong?

As for John's world, I think there is a real possibility that some of those things he helped conjure were a part of his former life. Yes, it was partly wishes and partly exaggerated on his part but to me, that makes it all the more interesting that he never forgets Elizabeth in the episode. Even with all the temptation placed in front of him intentionally , he continued to search and prod and experiement and came to the conclusion that it was all just...off and all just...wrong. I think that says something about the man.