Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[gateraid]

*spits coke on the keyboard*

The other day it was worse - keys randomly firing off and such. Today it has turned the "J" key (I had to copy and paste for that), but on the upside, it turns JUST into UST. Even in a meltdown, my computer is still a sparky shipper

[gateraid]

*snerks*

I would've called it something like 'Diplomatic Maneuvers.'

No, that one is resevered for the deleted sex scene in Seige II that MW talked about in the commentary for Seige III

[Scary Kitty]

No, that one is resevered for the deleted sex scene in Seige II that MW talked about in the commentary for Seige III

The deleted SPARKY sex scene! Let's not forget that one important word!

[Reiko]

Hm, I'll try to answer this without bringing any non topic relationships into the mix, but I'm afraid I can't escape the friendship that never got explored properly. I mean Teyla and Elizabeth friendship.

I agree with that! If you notice, the Teyla/Elizabeth friendship begins popping up more and more in season three. So may have the writers actually have an interest? I don't think female friendship is their favourite thing to write, but hey, they put it there. But it lacks the development I wished we had gotten from the first two seasons. How does Teyla and Elizabeth's friendship evovle? At the beginning, I think they might have even been slightly antagonistic during "Suspicion".

But an episode with Elizabeth/Teyla would be just so awesome. They should have also had RL and TH have promo pictures together, like they did with Carter and Keller. Except Carter and Teyla interacted less than Liz and Teyla and TBH I think Teyla tolerates Keller more than anything though it seems the writers try to rub them off as best girlfriends. Now that her other one is dead, maybe.

That's a tidbit I got from re-reading the beginning of this thread. We had some posters around here with good inside connections who said at the time that the ship focus changed shortly after the pilot aired and the Joe/Torri chemistry was the reason.

That's interesting! I'm going to have to read this thread from the beginning. LIke all the way. *looks at page numbers* Okay, maybe not, but I'd like to look around to see what people said at specific points in time.

For John and Elizabeth, she calls him "John" first in Rising. He calls her "Elizabeth" first in Hot Zone. I DO think that's really significant.

Sparky got to know each other rather quickly. Plus they already spend lots of time with each other as the city-leaders.

For Rodney and Elizabeth, they both refer to each other on a first name basis in Rising.

I think most most people got the impression that Rodney and Elizabeth knew each other before Rising, for a while even.

John calls Teyla "Teyla" of course in Rising. But if I'm not mistaken, she first refers to him as "John" comfortably at the end of "Conversion". That one I'm not terribly sure of, so correct me if I'm wrong.

It's on and off, really. You might expect her to call her John alwyas consistantly after Conversion but instead we ge the same on-and-off we got previously.

[KrisRussel]

Awww, that's awesome! And I can totally see that being what he really wanted to say!

Thank you... you're actually almost convincing me to post the whole thing one of these days
If I ever get it finished

I think it may have to do with the culture in the Pegasus Galaxy. The Athosians, the Genii, the Hoffans, and so many others, have been living under constant threat from the Wraith for millennia. Time and again, they've had loved ones ripped away from them so abruptly, and yet they have to pick up the pieces and move on, because their own people's continued survival against the Wraith depends on it. They may not have a lot of time to mourn, because they're too busy running, hiding and surviving. So Teyla's simply doing what needs to be done, just like John and the others are, compartmentalizing their feelings and their duties until they have a chance to breathe. At least, that's my take on it.

Ah, good point... very good point... that really could be it. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

I was doing some capturing for a vid today from Reunion and was struck by the balcony scene between John and Carter. The talk about Teyla packing up Elizabeth's stuff and compartmentalizing feelings made me think of this. Noone ever gets used to loss, but Teyla has been losing those she loves all her life and has a system for dealing with it. John has had his share of loss but it has been more intense over the last few years and particularly hard to deal with in regards to Elizabeth. Think about the fact that this is one of the first things he does after Carter takes command.

Transcript:

Spoiler:

SHEPPARD: You know, for most of us, this thing with Elizabeth isn’t over yet. She’s still out there.

CARTER: You really believe there’s a chance she’s still alive?

SHEPPARD: There’s only one way to know for sure.

CARTER: You’re suggesting we go back.

SHEPPARD: We should have done it sooner, but the I.O.A.’s been stonewalling me. Now that you’re in charge, maybe you can give me the green light.

CARTER: I’m sorry, but it’s too dangerous.

SHEPPARD: It’s no more dangerous than the last time we went in.

CARTER: Circumstances were different, plus you had an advantage then that you don’t have now.

SHEPPARD: Well, she’s the one who gave us that advantage. The only reason we’re here is because of what she did.

CARTER: Believe me, I know, and I don’t like the idea of leaving someone behind any more than you do. But I am not about to send you or anyone else on a suicide mission. Now, you come to me with a plan that has even an outside chance of succeeding and I’ll consider it. Short of that, John, I’m sorry. There’s nothing I can do.

SHEPPARD (reluctantly): Fair enough.

And the woobie face. How can you kick that puppy?

Spoiler:

Oh my... I think I'm gonna watch that ep again JUST for that scene.
John's face in that second picture is just heartbreaking
I also think it was a bit fast to start packing her stuff. I mean, she's only gone for what? barely a week? and there is no proof she's dead yet. So why are they packing her stuff already?

And after this they just dropped it leaving us to believe that for the first time in his life John Sheppard actually followed orders. No wonder Joe thought they didn't get his character.

Lol, also true. I like the fics where John and the others work together to device a plan behind the backs of Carter and the SGC to get Elizabeth back. They risk court martial (John and Lorne), being fired (McKay, Zelenka and/or Chuck) or being kicked out off Atlantis (Teyla and Ronon) but none of them care because it'll get Elizabeth back.
Now THAT is the team I have known and come to love and that totally disappeared in s5! And I purely blame tptb for that. *grumbles at them*

That's it in a nutshell. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. I don't think that the teleplay would have used those descriptors. After all, Sheyla is the preferred ship. Even an 'I love you' doesn't necessarily sound believable depending on how it is said.

Shhhh, we're not supposed to talk about the S-word in the thread anymore!

Okay Sparkies, it's that time of week again... T-minus 24 hours to our next post-a-thon, featuring Misbegotten and Irresistible! I'd like to get a head count of who is going to be able to participate, so please sound off and let us know if you'll be here.

Yay!! I'm pretty sure I'll be able to join in!!
Let's snark Irresistible to pieces

Reunion was all right, because it kept Elizabeth's spirit alive on Atlantis. Every time someone mentioned her name, you could just feel her ghost in the room. Delicious. And yes, I'm also pretty sure that scene between John and Carter was the one Joe was talking about.

I think Elizabeth's spirit was kept alive fairly well throughout s4 and s5, but mainly because of JF difference in acting. I also like how in 'The Seed' in s5 they still refer to her as ignoring the IOA's rules. I really liked it because it showed they really hadn't forgotten about her.

And then there's that scene in SG-1's New Order where Weir and Carter face off over SG-1 going to find the Asgard to get help for O'Neill. Carter's been in John's shoes before, and it burned me that she could turn around and be so callous about it just because it wasn't "her people." Like it was a slap in Weir's face to keep John and his team from making the attempt in some sort of petty revenge against Weir for trying to stand in Carter's way. I'm sure that wasn't really the intent, but with the past history between Weir and Carter, it's hard not to think of it that way.

I really don't see it like that. I think that if Jack would have been in Carter's place, he would have made the same decision. And Landry or Hammond would also have made that decision. Leaders of an expedition like the Atlantis expedition or people in charge of the Stargate program need to make the though decisions like that. They are the ones that have to make the extremely difficult ruling that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And no matter how much I hate to say it, but at that moment Elizabeth was the few and John and his team, who'd willingly put their lives on the line to free Elizabeth, were the many and Carter couldn't allow them to risks their lives without a decent plan. I hate that it happened, but I don't really blame Carter. It was what she had to decide as leader of the expedition.

[KrisRussel]

It's on and off, really. You might expect her to call her John always consistantly after Conversion but instead we ge the same on-and-off we got previously.

I really noticed that after "The eye of the Storm" they really started calling each other by their first names on a fairly consistent base. It's like they needed to face their own and each others mortality first.

[Scary Kitty]

I agree with that! If you notice, the Teyla/Elizabeth friendship begins popping up more and more in season three. So may have the writers actually have an interest? I don't think female friendship is their favourite thing to write, but hey, they put it there. But it lacks the development I wished we had gotten from the first two seasons. How does Teyla and Elizabeth's friendship evovle? At the beginning, I think they might have even been slightly antagonistic during "Suspicion".

But an episode with Elizabeth/Teyla would be just so awesome. They should have also had RL and TH have promo pictures together, like they did with Carter and Keller. Except Carter and Teyla interacted less than Liz and Teyla and TBH I think Teyla tolerates Keller more than anything though it seems the writers try to rub them off as best girlfriends. Now that her other one is dead, maybe.

*snerks*

Elizabeth & Teyla promo pics would've been wonderful. The closest we ever got were ones of the two of them with John.

Damnit, I want that 'Teyla teaches Elizabeth how to fight with bantos rods' scene!

I think most most people got the impression that Rodney and Elizabeth knew each other before Rising, for a while even.

*nods* I certainly did. I got the feeling that Rising could've taken place up to a few months after New Order. Plenty of time for the expedition members who were in Antarctica to get to know each other fairly well even before they left for Atlantis.

It's on and off, really. You might expect her to call her John alwyas consistantly after Conversion but instead we ge the same on-and-off we got previously.

At least they were consistent with the inconsistency. *cymbals crash*

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

The IOA is a bunch of pencil pushing idiots that shouldnt be in control of the atlantis expedition and if i was john i would've said "screw the ioa" and i would've gone back regardless if it cost me a court martial we dont leave people behind and if it didnt matter that i was in love in her that counts its the fact that WE DO NOT Leave people behind. then again thats my opinion.

[Scary Kitty]

Thank you... you're actually almost convincing me to post the whole thing one of these days
If I ever get it finished

Hee!

Oh my... I think I'm gonna watch that ep again JUST for that scene.
John's face in that second picture is just heartbreaking
I also think it was a bit fast to start packing her stuff. I mean, she's only gone for what? barely a week? and there is no proof she's dead yet. So why are they packing her stuff already?

At the end of Lifeline? It hadn't even been a day, more like just a few hours.

Lol, also true. I like the fics where John and the others work together to device a plan behind the backs of Carter and the SGC to get Elizabeth back. They risk court martial (John and Lorne), being fired (McKay, Zelenka and/or Chuck) or being kicked out off Atlantis (Teyla and Ronon) but none of them care because it'll get Elizabeth back.
Now THAT is the team I have known and come to love and that totally disappeared in s5! And I purely blame tptb for that. *grumbles at them*

Or fics where everyone basically says "screw you" to Earth and Atlantis goes rogue. They move the city so Earth can't find 'em and then they go get Elizabeth. Or they get Elizabeth and when the IOA/SGC tries to drag her back to Area 51 for study or whatever, Atlantis rebels. I just love "Atlantis has a revolution" fics. Those are always fun.

Yay!! I'm pretty sure I'll be able to join in!!
Let's snark Irresistible to pieces

YAY! *happy dance* So me, you, maybe Eri *prays for rain*... anyone else wanna join in? C'mon Sparkies! Misbegotten and the "John Sheppard, are you defending my honor?" scene? That's a classic!

I think Elizabeth's spirit was kept alive fairly well throughout s4 and s5, but mainly because of JF difference in acting. I also like how in 'The Seed' in s5 they still refer to her as ignoring the IOA's rules. I really liked it because it showed they really hadn't forgotten about her.

Or Woosley sticking up for Weir in Inquisition and Remnants... gee, having some regrets about giving Lizzie a hard time, Dick? *smirks* (And I don't want to hear anyone whining about me calling Woolsey "Dick" because he called himself that in Remnants. So there! )

I really don't see it like that. I think that if Jack would have been in Carter's place, he would have made the same decision. And Landry or Hammond would also have made that decision. Leaders of an expedition like the Atlantis expedition or people in charge of the Stargate program need to make the though decisions like that. They are the ones that have to make the extremely difficult ruling that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And no matter how much I hate to say it, but at that moment Elizabeth was the few and John and his team, who'd willingly put their lives on the line to free Elizabeth, were the many and Carter couldn't allow them to risks their lives without a decent plan. I hate that it happened, but I don't really blame Carter. It was what she had to decide as leader of the expedition.

And yet in the same episode that she turns down John's request for a rescue mission to Asuras, we have Carter do something Grade-A stupid that no expedition leader should do... go on an equally harebrained rescue mission into an enemy stronghold to rescue captured team members with virtually no plan except 'go in, track them down, and get out.' It's the hypocrisy of it and that it makes Carter look bad, that really gets to me.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

sorry for the rant. just needed to vent out the anger i had. did anyone know that john started getting grey hair just after they lost elizabeth. i mean stress could do that to a person (but im sure it was just Joe F getting Older.)

[KrisRussel]

At the end of Lifeline? It hadn't even been a day, more like just a few hours.

No, the it's a scene from Reunion... or is it lifeline... Heck I'm confused... going to need to see those eps again

Or fics where everyone basically says "screw you" to Earth and Atlantis goes rogue. They move the city so Earth can't find 'em and then they go get Elizabeth. Or they get Elizabeth and when the IOA/SGC tries to drag her back to Area 51 for study or whatever, Atlantis rebels. I just love "Atlantis has a revolution" fics. Those are always fun.

Oh, I totally love those
If they are written well and have good characterizations then they are my most fav fics
I really like the one were Woolsey is the bad guy and there is a clear difference between the "old" Atlantis inhabitants and the new guys Woolsey brought along. I can't remember exactly what fic it was as my memory decided to abandon me, but I do know I loved it

Or Woosley sticking up for Weir in Inquisition and Remnants... gee, having some regrets about giving Lizzie a hard time, Dick? *smirks* (And I don't want to hear anyone whining about me calling Woolsey "Dick" because he called himself that in Remnants. So there! )

He did call himself that *grins*
Yeah, it was nice she wasn't completely forgotten... not even by the 'new' guy.

And yet in the same episode that she turns down John's request for a rescue mission to Asuras, we have Carter do something Grade-A stupid that no expedition leader should do... go on an equally harebrained rescue mission into an enemy stronghold to rescue captured team members with virtually no plan except 'go in, track them down, and get out.' It's the hypocrisy of it and that it makes Carter look bad, that really gets to me.

Really? Heck, I really have to watch those eps again!!!!!!!

[Reiko]

Elizabeth & Teyla promo pics would've been wonderful. The closest we ever got were ones of the two of them with John.

Sometimes I wonder what they may have been trying to imply there with that promo.

Damnit, I want that 'Teyla teaches Elizabeth how to fight with bantos rods' scene!

Which would just be cool. Though I could settle for John teaching her, too ...

Or fics where everyone basically says "screw you" to Earth and Atlantis goes rogue. They move the city so Earth can't find 'em and then they go get Elizabeth. Or they get Elizabeth and when the IOA/SGC tries to drag her back to Area 51 for study or whatever, Atlantis rebels. I just love "Atlantis has a revolution" fics. Those are always fun.

I wish it could happen for real.

I mean, look you have a PERFECT STORYLINE for your effing movie, and this is your Atlantis movie that needs to make it BIG to get money to make more. Given that you also put effort into it (hence my wanting for an independant, new writer), you will pull in the Elizabeth fans and also a large number of Anti's for they're money. That's what it's for right?

They opened doors even with Elizabeth in space. Maybe the Travellers or some other space-faring group picked her up. Possibilities, TPTB. Just LOOK.

I wonder what the summary of Fail is going to be for the SGA movie if it's ever released.

[gateraid]

Hee!



At the end of Lifeline? It hadn't even been a day, more like just a few hours.

Yep, they Teyla packs up her stuff at the end of Lifeline, then Ronon comes in to check on her. Hours most probably - they hyperdrived back to Atlantis, then hyperdrived to the planet, followed by an improbable landing in the ocean.

Or fics where everyone basically says "screw you" to Earth and Atlantis goes rogue. They move the city so Earth can't find 'em and then they go get Elizabeth. Or they get Elizabeth and when the IOA/SGC tries to drag her back to Area 51 for study or whatever, Atlantis rebels. I just love "Atlantis has a revolution" fics. Those are always fun.

That last 5 or 6 chapter one you rec'd was pretty good

YAY! *happy dance* So me, you, maybe Eri *prays for rain*... anyone else wanna join in? C'mon Sparkies! Misbegotten and the "John Sheppard, are you defending my honor?" scene? That's a classic!

IIRC they said in the commentary that it was there purely to show the passage of time. I think they were playing with us <insert anti snark here>. Surely a less flirtatious scene would have been more prudent.

Or Woosley sticking up for Weir in Inquisition and Remnants... gee, having some regrets about giving Lizzie a hard time, Dick? *smirks* (And I don't want to hear anyone whining about me calling Woolsey "Dick" because he called himself that in Remnants. So there! )

I think they whine because we could have so much fun with the name Dick

And yet in the same episode that she turns down John's request for a rescue mission to Asuras, we have Carter do something Grade-A stupid that no expedition leader should do... go on an equally harebrained rescue mission into an enemy stronghold to rescue captured team members with virtually no plan except 'go in, track them down, and get out.' It's the hypocrisy of it and that it makes Carter look bad, that really gets to me.

She went because OMG!!Carter is so much cooler than Weir!! She can shoot stuff!! And the people that crowed about how strong it made her look as a leader - puhlease. She deferred to Ronon mostly, who as it turned out had been fed false information. Then when Shep came along, she deferred to him.

Sometimes I wonder what they may have been trying to imply there with that promo.

I could say it but I think you were hinting at it too.

Which would just be cool. Though I could settle for John teaching her, too ...

He was teaching her to play with a rod of a different kind Not Rodney

I wish it could happen for real.

I mean, look you have a PERFECT STORYLINE for your effing movie, and this is your Atlantis movie that needs to make it BIG to get money to make more. Given that you also put effort into it (hence my wanting for an independant, new writer), you will pull in the Elizabeth fans and also a large number of Anti's for they're money. That's what it's for right?

They opened doors even with Elizabeth in space. Maybe the Travellers or some other space-faring group picked her up. Possibilities, TPTB. Just LOOK.

I wonder what the summary of Fail is going to be for the SGA movie if it's ever released.

THB, I wouldn't really accept them going back for Lizzie unless it was the real Elizabeth ie the one they left behind in Lifeline (okay, I guess she isn't technically the real Elizabeth either but that is splitting hairs). Going back for Franibeth seems silly to me - they had all that time in the PG to do it, so why wait until now? How has the situation changed? How have Shep's feelings changed between now and then? I don't think they would have

[Reiko]

He was teaching her to play with a rod of a different kind Not Rodney

Haha.

I really needed that because I'm going to bed and am cranky because LJ is down so I can't submit my icons which means I'll try to wake early tomorrow. *grumble*

THB, I wouldn't really accept them going back for Lizzie unless it was the real Elizabeth ie the one they left behind in Lifeline (okay, I guess she isn't technically the real Elizabeth either but that is splitting hairs). Going back for Franibeth seems silly to me - they had all that time in the PG to do it, so why wait until now? How has the situation changed? How have Shep's feelings changed between now and then? I don't think they would have

The one they left behind in Lifeline is real, isn't she? She's just nanite-infected. But it's confusing. Gah, it's another case of how many Elizabeths are running around in the Pegasus Galaxy again?

Well, I can see going after Franibeth if there was plot. And TPTB need plot like woe.

[Scary Kitty]

T-minus 15 hours to Misbegotten and Irresistible!

I wish it could happen for real.

I mean, look you have a PERFECT STORYLINE for your effing movie, and this is your Atlantis movie that needs to make it BIG to get money to make more. Given that you also put effort into it (hence my wanting for an independant, new writer), you will pull in the Elizabeth fans and also a large number of Anti's for they're money. That's what it's for right?

They opened doors even with Elizabeth in space. Maybe the Travellers or some other space-faring group picked her up. Possibilities, TPTB. Just LOOK.

I wonder what the summary of Fail is going to be for the SGA movie if it's ever released.

The Travelers, the guys from Daedalus Variations, those pesky renegade Asgard... there's all sorts of fun to be had there.

Theoretically, it's supposed to be about making money. But with the crazy, fan-enraging decisions that have been made in the past, I don't think TPTW have connected all the dots yet. The summary of fail will be too terrible to be recorded. *snorts*

THB, I wouldn't really accept them going back for Lizzie unless it was the real Elizabeth ie the one they left behind in Lifeline (okay, I guess she isn't technically the real Elizabeth either but that is splitting hairs). Going back for Franibeth seems silly to me - they had all that time in the PG to do it, so why wait until now? How has the situation changed? How have Shep's feelings changed between now and then? I don't think they would have

John's feelings definitely wouldn't have changed... except maybe to get darker, deeper and more depressed, perhaps.

The one they left behind in Lifeline is real, isn't she? She's just nanite-infected. But it's confusing. Gah, it's another case of how many Elizabeths are running around in the Pegasus Galaxy again?

Well, I can see going after Franibeth if there was plot. And TPTB need plot like woe.

Yup, Lifeline!Lizzie (who I like to call Hybrid!Weir, because, well, she's a hybrid of human and Replicator) is the original, nanite-infected one. Hell, they could do a plot with both Hybrid!Weir and FRANibeth. Which could be insanely fun and freaky if done right. (I'm trying to do it in my fic. )