Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Interesting. I didn't see much change between BIS and TOR. John and Rodney bickered. Sparky was joined at the hip. John was a bit more laid back and less wide-eyed, but that was to be expected. And in both Elizabeth was calm, smart and in control. To be accurate, I should have watched 2 Carl Binder episodes, but The Game would have worked and I know John was just the same in that one.

So now to test my theory further, I should watch a Binder episode from S4. But I would rather dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon, so I choose to rely on my memory of cranky John in S4-5 and leave it at that.

[Eri13]

WTF?, indeed! Those comments by the poster and Binder are such BS, and it's a horrible insult to JoeF. Y'know, someone made a joke a while ago about Binder being locked up in the basement and forced to write what M&M wanted... maybe they've simply replaced him with a pod person. Mallozzi's certainly gone out of his way to insult JoeF on his blog before now. (Remember when Mallozzi tried to claim based on the amount of applause at Comic-Con that Keller was more popular with fans than Sheppard? When in reality, it was just a bunch of Firefly fans waiting for the Firefly panel scheduled after the SGA panel who were cheering for Jewel, not Keller and not SGA?) *headdesk*

I agree with you, SR, John has changed tremendously since Rising, and it is JoeF's great talent and attention to the details that has brought those changes to life. It's a shame that TPTW now feel the need to tear him down when his character has been central to the show's success.

While I would certainly never say John's a static character, the other characters have all had 'life-changing' storylines/arcs that have 'altered' the characters in a manner. Ronon's dealing with the betrayal from his friends from Sateda; Teyla's connection to Michael and now her pregnancy. Rodney's family and his relationships with Carson and Katie. All were purposefully introduced storylines to add something more to the characters.

Maybe that's what Binder is pointing to when he says what he says, because other than "Epiphany" and "Outcast" (and maybe "Sanctuary") we haven't had a specifically aimed at Sheppard story that explored him like that. He's so integral a part of the show that he's become reactive to everyone else's changes and doesn't face many of his own.

While I agree that making a blanket statement saying his character is static is an insult to the work Joe puts into his character, on paper I also agree that he's not terribly dynamic. He's still the leader, still smart, still congenial with everyone he meets, still the hero, still good, still slightly snarky in his commentary and still rational in what he does. He has changed in that he's not as happy-go-lucky as in the first season, he's a little less rash; certainly more of a leader, and perhaps thinks a little more about other outcomes (pointed to by Carter in S4 as a sign Elizabeth influenced him). He's also no longer 'happy'.

None of the 'static' elements are Joe's fault, though--he's not been written anything that challenges those character elements. Nobody has challenged his command. He's not had to make a choice considered 'evil'. He's not done something less than heroic that no one else knew about. Even what we were talking about earlier--he did leave Elizabeth behind; he's never had a scene written that explored how he felt about that--if he even considered it a failure. I think he tries in his performance to convey that John is being changed by the events, but it's not easy when people write him the same.

I believe John could be very different--imagine what would be if they'd latched onto that renegade side from "The Eye" - but they were afraid to go there because it would affect his 'hero' status. He could be so much more complex, and he's been wasted. Was it in Miller's Crossing where he offered up a willing sacrifice? I LOVED that. But they were afraid that was too dark, too, so they never mentioned it again. He could be battle scarred; he could be angry with a tendency to lash out; he could be pushing away his remaining friends. He could be going on more suicide missions. Heck, he could be a completely pain in the @$$ to Woolsey; run the risk of losing his command. And Joe's good enough to do any of that and convince the viewers he's doing it because his character is hurting - not taking away from the 'hero' status at all. But he doesn't because the writers and PTB are afraid to write him like that.

Yes you have to pass everything. The driving regulations test is something beyond awful. They give you, among other questions, a five or six pictures of crossings, and you have to know who's allowed to go first (what0s that called in English?). Of course, those situations presented in pictures are awfully tricky. One wrong answer on that set of questions and you fail entire test. Until you pass that test you're not allowed to take driving lessons. Also, you're not allowed to take driving test until you pass first aid test.

But all of that crap doesn't make croatia's drivers good. In fact, we're known as lousy drivers, and people who fail driving test a lot are - people with high education.

Tell me does that make any sense?

Anyway, I went shopping. I feel better.

Shopping always makes me feel better no matter how craptastic the day has been.

[Reiko]

Yes you have to pass everything. The driving regulations test is something beyond awful. They give you, among other questions, a five or six pictures of crossings, and you have to know who's allowed to go first (what0s that called in English?). Of course, those situations presented in pictures are awfully tricky. One wrong answer on that set of questions and you fail entire test. Until you pass that test you're not allowed to take driving lessons. Also, you're not allowed to take driving test until you pass first aid test.

You're telling me you have to pass this test before you take the driving lessons? Now, that makes no sense -- and passing the entire test, I don't think I could do it either. *pats*

[Southern Red]

While I would certainly never say John's a static character, the other characters have all had 'life-changing' storylines/arcs that have 'altered' the characters in a manner. Ronon's dealing with the betrayal from his friends from Sateda; Teyla's connection to Michael and now her pregnancy. Rodney's family and his relationships with Carson and Katie. All were purposefully introduced storylines to add something more to the characters.

Maybe that's what Binder is pointing to when he says what he says, because other than "Epiphany" and "Outcast" (and maybe "Sanctuary") we haven't had a specifically aimed at Sheppard story that explored him like that. He's so integral a part of the show that he's become reactive to everyone else's changes and doesn't face many of his own.

While I agree that making a blanket statement saying his character is static is an insult to the work Joe puts into his character, on paper I also agree that he's not terribly dynamic. He's still the leader, still smart, still congenial with everyone he meets, still the hero, still good, still slightly snarky in his commentary and still rational in what he does. He has changed in that he's not as happy-go-lucky as in the first season, he's a little less rash; certainly more of a leader, and perhaps thinks a little more about other outcomes (pointed to by Carter in S4 as a sign Elizabeth influenced him). He's also no longer 'happy'.

None of the 'static' elements are Joe's fault, though--he's not been written anything that challenges those character elements. Nobody has challenged his command. He's not had to make a choice considered 'evil'. He's not done something less than heroic that no one else knew about. Even what we were talking about earlier--he did leave Elizabeth behind; he's never had a scene written that explored how he felt about that--if he even considered it a failure. I think he tries in his performance to convey that John is being changed by the events, but it's not easy when people write him the same.

I believe John could be very different--imagine what would be if they'd latched onto that renegade side from "The Eye" - but they were afraid to go there because it would affect his 'hero' status. He could be so much more complex, and he's been wasted. Was it in Miller's Crossing where he offered up a willing sacrifice? I LOVED that. But they were afraid that was too dark, too, so they never mentioned it again. He could be battle scarred; he could be angry with a tendency to lash out; he could be pushing away his remaining friends. He could be going on more suicide missions. Heck, he could be a completely pain in the @$$ to Woolsey; run the risk of losing his command. And Joe's good enough to do any of that and convince the viewers he's doing it because his character is hurting - not taking away from the 'hero' status at all. But he doesn't because the writers and PTB are afraid to write him like that.



Shopping always makes me feel better no matter how craptastic the day has been.

Absolutely fabulous post. And as I stated above, viewing several in a row makes you see that he hasn't changed per se. I've been a little ticked off for 5 years that Sheppard gets so little attention. In fact, if I remember correctly, JF even said one time that he asked them about that and one of the PTB told him that "every episode is about your character" or some such nonsense. S5 promises to be even less Shep oriented than usual.

[Wormhole]

For those interested in the story. Just added Caught... Chapter Two on LiveJournel. Enjoy

Off to Collectormania tomorrow for the weekend, so won't be around very much from Thursday.

Have a good weekend all, catch up when I get back.

[Eri13]

Absolutely fabulous post. And as I stated above, viewing several in a row makes you see that he hasn't changed per se. I've been a little ticked off for 5 years that Sheppard gets so little attention. In fact, if I remember correctly, JF even said one time that he asked them about that and one of the PTB told him that "every episode is about your character" or some such nonsense. S5 promises to be even less Shep oriented than usual.

Yeah...and the new characters haven't helped, either. Introducing them means they have to be developed and explored, so less focus on the older characters.

Sometimes it's fine not to change characters--you think about Mulder and Scully; they didn't really change too much when they were regulars and it worked. But you also have to give characters stories to work with to allow the character to develop. Mulder was tied to the alien storyline, and it was the storyline that continued to change--along with their relationship--which is why you don't notice that the characters individually didn't change too much.

On Atlantis, their stand-alone/two-parter mentality doesn't really allow for that kind of storyline development, so John gets passed by while Rodney is allowed a few episodes to deal with his sister, or Ronon gets to meet up with his fellow Satedans again. Michael is one area I think they got right; had they not wanted to use Elizabeth's replicator status as a way to usher her out you could have had two interesting seasonal arcs.

Again, this is another thing that goes hand-in-hand with why I don't watch. No John reacting to Elizabeth's absence; you're left to draw your own conclusions about why John's 'sad' this episode. It all ties together and most of it goes back to story development and how TPTB wanted it to develop. Works for some people--not for me.

That's why I'm not excited about the films. Unless Elizabeth comes back, I'm not particularly interested in watching a double-length episode with slightly better SFX. I don't believe we'll be getting explorations of characters in them, so unless they want to bring back my favorite character, I don't see myself tuning in.

[SMB_BOOKS]

That's why I'm not excited about the films. Unless Elizabeth comes back, I'm not particularly interested in watching a double-length episode with slightly better SFX. I don't believe we'll be getting explorations of characters in them, so unless they want to bring back my favorite character, I don't see myself tuning in.

First - I am enjoying all the discussion regarding how John has or hasn't changed over the life of SGA. Thanks to all who are offering their views!

Second - Eri13, I agree with you about the upcoming film(s). I doubt I tune in if there's no plan for an Elizabeth rescue or revival, etc.

[Scary Kitty]

Good evening, Sparkies!

*hugs Anuna and sends hot tea with honey for her throat* Evil mean nasty driving test! That totally sucks. *hugs more*

Interesting. I didn't see much change between BIS and TOR. John and Rodney bickered. Sparky was joined at the hip. John was a bit more laid back and less wide-eyed, but that was to be expected. And in both Elizabeth was calm, smart and in control. To be accurate, I should have watched 2 Carl Binder episodes, but The Game would have worked and I know John was just the same in that one.

So now to test my theory further, I should watch a Binder episode from S4. But I would rather dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon, so I choose to rely on my memory of cranky John in S4-5 and leave it at that.

I think that's really the key; the contrast between the way that John is in S1-3 (with Elizabeth) and the way he is in S4-5 (without Elizabeth). Because you're absolutely right, he really doesn't change in the first three seasons. It's only once Elizabeth is taken out of the picture that he loses the light, carefree side to his personality, and becomes more serious and dark. His sense of humor, while still there, is less about having a bit of fun and more bleak and sarcastic. Personally, I don't think much of it can be attributed to the writing; it seems like for the most part, the writers have gone out of their way to ignore Elizabeth's existence and her impact on all the characters, except when it's convenient for them. (And as we've all noted, even when the writers do bring up Elizabeth in a script, they keep half-*ssing it.) So some of what we're seeing from John now is certainly coming from acting decisions that JoeF has made in his own mind to further develop his performance. And some of it is certainly from those rose-colored glasses of shipdom we wear.

As for the "static-ness" of Sheppard through the years, the inconsistent writing is definitely a big part of that problem. Stargate's PTW have never really been big on character development, even on SG-1. And you've all heard me speculate in the past as to whether or not Flanigan is getting worn out by the grind of his schedule and weekly commute and all; recently, there have been episodes like Whispers where it seemed like he just phoned in his performance, but then we see occasional episodes like GitM, where he clearly brought his A-game to play. Who knows?

I believe John could be very different--imagine what would be if they'd latched onto that renegade side from "The Eye" - but they were afraid to go there because it would affect his 'hero' status. He could be so much more complex, and he's been wasted. Was it in Miller's Crossing where he offered up a willing sacrifice? I LOVED that. But they were afraid that was too dark, too, so they never mentioned it again. He could be battle scarred; he could be angry with a tendency to lash out; he could be pushing away his remaining friends. He could be going on more suicide missions. Heck, he could be a completely pain in the @$$ to Woolsey; run the risk of losing his command. And Joe's good enough to do any of that and convince the viewers he's doing it because his character is hurting - not taking away from the 'hero' status at all. But he doesn't because the writers and PTB are afraid to write him like that.

Yup, that was Miller's Crossing. OMG, that was a such great episode for Sheppard. They should have kept pushing the envelope on him; they kept claiming that they wanted things to be "darker" in S4, yet they keep pulling back from it with some inane excuse that they don't want to tarnish their 'hero.' Bah. I want my hero tarnished, darnit. They're more interesting that way.

Absolutely fabulous post. And as I stated above, viewing several in a row makes you see that he hasn't changed per se. I've been a little ticked off for 5 years that Sheppard gets so little attention. In fact, if I remember correctly, JF even said one time that he asked them about that and one of the PTB told him that "every episode is about your character" or some such nonsense. S5 promises to be even less Shep oriented than usual.

Nonsense, indeed. I admit to having one rather dark thought on the SGA movie...

Spoiler:

I wonder if all these ways that Sheppard's being diminished as a character is an indication that they're planning on killing him off?

[Pajus]

Nonsense, indeed. I admit to having one rather dark thought on the SGA movie...

Spoiler:

I wonder if all these ways that Sheppard's being diminished as a character is an indication that they're planning on killing him off?

Spoiler:

That WOULD make my day

[Scary Kitty]

Spoiler:

That WOULD make my day

*snickers* Yeah, I had a feeling you'd like that.

[Pajus]

*snickers* Yeah, I had a feeling you'd like that.

Spoiler:

He could die in a say.... Darwin award way

[Pajus]

You're telling me you have to pass this test before you take the driving lessons? Now, that makes no sense -- and passing the entire test, I don't think I could do it either. *pats*

Welcome to the reality of our countries

[Southern Red]

Good evening, Sparkies!

*hugs Anuna and sends hot tea with honey for her throat* Evil mean nasty driving test! That totally sucks. *hugs more*



I think that's really the key; the contrast between the way that John is in S1-3 (with Elizabeth) and the way he is in S4-5 (without Elizabeth). Because you're absolutely right, he really doesn't change in the first three seasons. It's only once Elizabeth is taken out of the picture that he loses the light, carefree side to his personality, and becomes more serious and dark. His sense of humor, while still there, is less about having a bit of fun and more bleak and sarcastic. Personally, I don't think much of it can be attributed to the writing; it seems like for the most part, the writers have gone out of their way to ignore Elizabeth's existence and her impact on all the characters, except when it's convenient for them. (And as we've all noted, even when the writers do bring up Elizabeth in a script, they keep half-*ssing it.) So some of what we're seeing from John now is certainly coming from acting decisions that JoeF has made in his own mind to further develop his performance. And some of it is certainly from those rose-colored glasses of shipdom we wear.

As for the "static-ness" of Sheppard through the years, the inconsistent writing is definitely a big part of that problem. Stargate's PTW have never really been big on character development, even on SG-1. And you've all heard me speculate in the past as to whether or not Flanigan is getting worn out by the grind of his schedule and weekly commute and all; recently, there have been episodes like Whispers where it seemed like he just phoned in his performance, but then we see occasional episodes like GitM, where he clearly brought his A-game to play. Who knows?



Yup, that was Miller's Crossing. OMG, that was a such great episode for Sheppard. They should have kept pushing the envelope on him; they kept claiming that they wanted things to be "darker" in S4, yet they keep pulling back from it with some inane excuse that they don't want to tarnish their 'hero.' Bah. I want my hero tarnished, darnit. They're more interesting that way.



Nonsense, indeed. I admit to having one rather dark thought on the SGA movie...

Spoiler:

I wonder if all these ways that Sheppard's being diminished as a character is an indication that they're planning on killing him off?

The only thing I've seen really darker is the lighting. lol And most of my negativity has come not only from the lack of Sparky but the lack of Sheppard, who is still my favorite character.

This idea of the perfect hero has been a point of disagreement between TPTW and JF from the beginning. Joe has said in numerous interviews that he's been told that the hero can't *insert negative trait of your choice here* I remember early on in S1 he said they gave him the DVD's of Firefly to watch and told him that Mal was the opposite of what they wanted. I loved Mal for his imperfections. He was a lot more interesting than Sheppard has become.

I think in eps like Whispers and some others where he has basically nothing new to do but just goes along being the commander, running with guns, and shooting bad guys don't present any acting challenges. It's like the office worker who inputs data, attends boring meetings and rides home on the bus every day. He may do a good job but after awhile it all seems the same. Joe absolutely shines when he has something new to do. There have been wonderful scenes in S5 like

Spoiler:

under the rubble with Ronon, the infirmary scene with Keller in S&R, the beer scene in The Shrine,

but those are few and far between.

As for killing John off, I don't think that will happen unless Joe wants to leave. They aren't that stupid. No really, they can't be. Can they? And I don't think he is going to turn down work for such a short period that will pay so well. Unless he gets a better deal. *crosses fingers*

[Eri13]

The only thing I've seen really darker is the lighting. lol And most of my negativity has come not only from the lack of Sparky but the lack of Sheppard, who is still my favorite character.

This idea of the perfect hero has been a point of disagreement between TPTW and JF from the beginning. Joe has said in numerous interviews that he's been told that the hero can't *insert negative trait of your choice here* I remember early on in S1 he said they gave him the DVD's of Firefly to watch and told him that Mal was the opposite of what they wanted. I loved Mal for his imperfections. He was a lot more interesting than Sheppard has become.

I think in eps like Whispers and some others where he has basically nothing new to do but just goes along being the commander, running with guns, and shooting bad guys don't present any acting challenges. It's like the office worker who inputs data, attends boring meetings and rides home on the bus every day. He may do a good job but after awhile it all seems the same. Joe absolutely shines when he has something new to do. There have been wonderful scenes in S5 like

Spoiler:

under the rubble with Ronon, the infirmary scene with Keller in S&R, the beer scene in The Shrine,

but those are few and far between.

As for killing John off, I don't think that will happen unless Joe wants to leave. They aren't that stupid. No really, they can't be. Can they? And I don't think he is going to turn down work for such a short period that will pay so well. Unless he gets a better deal. *crosses fingers*

OMG Mal...I love Firefly. That's another on my top 5 of all time. I love hero-types, but I also love understated questionable-hero types because of the complexity they generally bring to the table from the get-go. Mal was one of those--always edgy, but never toe-ing into the world of 'evil'. For me, he ranks alongside Dean Winchester and probably the darkest character I've ever loved, James "Sawyer" Ford from "LOST".

John never needed to be Mal; I liked him as he started out. I never expected SGA to be Firefly. My gripe came with the fact that he didn't change or go darker as events shaped his life. With the small glimpses we saw of darker John--the way he acted when friends were in danger, of course the stuff we loved in "The Eye" and the example what he did in Miller's Crossing--the tools were there. Just not the writing.

If they kill John off it won't be until the final movie, whenever they decide when that will be. Even if Joe were to say he wasn't coming back for, say, movie 5, I don't think they'd kill him off. John is the cornerstone of the show--they can give him 'vacation' but I don't think they can plausibly have him killed off and maintain a storyline order amidst the supporting cast. They'd all have to be reactive to his death--no plausibly getting around that one, he's John--which would be the ultimate mopey movie--everyone depressed he's no longer there.

[Reiko]

RE: Regarding the Mal vs John conversation, I think John is very much being sculpted unintentionally into a more Mal-type character. John in S1-S3 was before Mal's war; John during S4 and S5 is afterwards. It's not as deep as Mal, but I can definately see it.