Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies!

In honor of Canon!Day, here are my daily fic recs:

Unwarranted Addiction, by Trialia. Late at night, John considers his feelings for Elizabeth.

Better Than Sedatives, by EllieJane. In the aftermath of The Siege, John just can't calm himself down enough to sleep. Until he realizes that someone can help him.

Happy reading!

[Eri13]

Welcome, Canon Monday!

Ah, The Long Goodbye. Two truths are established in canon with this episode:

1) We get 'a kiss.' But, as many arguments have been made today regarding a certain other dream-state shipper scene from Season 5, it is NOT reality. However, we get lots of pretty pictures.

2) More fundamentally, 'the kiss' proves the writers were aware by Season 2 (by Season 1, really, when S2 was being written) that there were people out there interested in seeing a J/E kiss.

However--for me, The Long Goodbye functions much like I imagine "Conversion" functions for the other shippers--though there is a toe-curling moment where your little heart goes "YES!" the 'how' and 'why' deflates the whole thing. It's one of those episodes where it appears to be one way, but has undercurrents of another--in this case, superficially you have some good J/E stuff, but the only truly 'great' scene is the end. Much of the rest of it has tones of the John/Teyla ship. Just as Conversion spends more of its time on Sparky. Which is probably why I prefer "Conversion" to The Long Goodbye overall.

Yet, there are many subliminal arguments to be made here, and we'll focus on some of that. Watch for my 'subliminal sparky alerts' this go around.

The Long Goodbye



The story begins with an interesting post-open scene--and an unusual one for SGA in general, because it requires specific knowledge of a previous episode. We see Colonel Caldwell, attempting to make good with Dr. Weir following his Gou'uld possession in "Critical Mass". This is unusual because SGA doesn't like to confuse 'new' viewers with required continuity--especially for an episode that was two stories ago, not one.

However, it's a great setup for what's to come--and another evolution of the Weir/Caldwell professional relationship. One thing I've come to appreciate through these analysis is how subtlety that was developed throughout season 2. Suddenly, 'Misbegotten' will make a great deal more sense.





I actually really enjoyed the concept of this episode. Get two warrior personalities lodged in the bodies of your two most trustworthy people, and see what everyone does in reaction. I also like that it was Elizabeth who gets possessed first, because we get to see everyone sorta scrambling and panicky from the get-go.




John and Caldwell both catch her when she falls, but look who's more concerned.

Subliminal Sparky 1: John's concern over Elizabeth: John is fairly laid-back to begin with over Elizabeth's 'attack', even assuring Rodney it's not his fault. As soon as he discovers Phebus has possessed her, though, he's not very forgiving. While everyone else spends time placating Phebus--who appears innocent and gentle to begin with--John is more concerned about Elizabeth:

WEIR: Then for all intents and purposes I am already dead.
BECKETT: I'm sorry.
WEIR: So am I.
SHEPPARD: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all very sorry. Where's Elizabeth?
WEIR: She is here also.

One thing TLG allows for is some new flavor in the acting of Torri Higginson and Joe Flanigan. While I wasn't all that impressed with the differences between Thalen and Sheppard--more or less because he didn't get much of a chance to develop a personality for Thalen--I thought Torri sold the distinction between Phoebus, Elizabeth, and even Phoebus-as-Elizabeth amazingly well.






Even John's fooled.

Subliminal Sparky 2: John agrees to be her husband: This, for me, is one of the bigger moments of Sparky canon--and if anyone asks why I like TLG in any way, it's more for this (and the end scene) than the kiss. Here, John agrees to host Thalen--Phoebus's 'husband'--for the duration of the time their consciousnesses are alive.

Why does he do this? We can make many arguments as to why he shouldn't. He's the military head and second-in-command. Why couldn't it have been Lorne or some other lowering ranking officer?

Interestingly, of course, is the fact that nothing could have been made of this other than him playing host. What I mean is--none of the 'romantic' elements could have been brought up. The fact is, they're ALL brought up--the fact that John is a 'romantic' and so is Elizabeth in John's mind. That John agrees to do it himself. The fact that he's not sure what will happen but is aware of what could happen (the consenting adults remark). The writing makes it a point to entertain everything that might have happened had it really played out the way they believed it was going to.







Now...THE KISS. It was a good kiss--makes me a little sad we didn't get to see this in 'reality'. But what I really like about it is the reaction of the rest of the group. Carson's embarrassed, so is Caldwell--Rodney stares, then laughs. My interpretation? They're more or less embarrassed at the sight of the two heads kissing than the fact it was two alien entities reuniting. Maybe they have their own thoughts on the matter?

BTW--LiliJ proposed a challenge requesting John and Elizabeth's thoughts on their 'kissing'--anyone have a fic rec about that?












Love the expression on his face here.

Coming up...the 'marriage' hits the skids; Weir's a little more dangerous than you think, and how one hair strand makes the woman...

[Scary Kitty]

YAY Sparky canon day!!!!

This is probably one of my favorite sparky canon moments. I mean come on who stares at each other this close for such a long time? I tell you who JOHN AND ELIZABETH. I mean seriously I would have been happy just with this moment back in the day.It made me so happy.

Eye!sex for the win!

Also John SO thought he was going to get a kiss. PROOF.

Yup! 'Cause you know that John didn't want to be kissing his Lizzie with dry lips.

And then came this and I died. John and Elizabeth had the first hug in SGA land. I think we should celebrate that.


We've seen other hugs in SGA now, but watching John/Elizabeth hug felt like a big deal and a lot had to do with the music and direction. Actually the way the camera moves reminds me a bit of the TLG kiss.

I always get a kick out of how befuddled John seems here, hesitantly bringing his arms up to hug Elizabeth back because he's so nervous and doesn't want to look like he's too eager when we all know that all he wants to do is sweep her off her feet and kiss her senseless. *happy sigh*

[Scary Kitty]

I'm back, and I woke up feeling naughty today so watch out. I was wondering what John must have been thinking in that scene from S&R. Maybe something like this. One spoiler pic and some internal dialogue.

Spoiler:

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You've been GREENED!

[Wormhole]

Pic Spam

John always seems to be there at the right moment.


Btw, that isn't a giant rat behind in the corner is it.





Size

Spoiler:

[Eri13]

The Long Goodbye, Part 2

Whoops. They made a mistake--they're not really married...Oopsie! As far as plotholes go, we could have driven Atlantis through it, but I'm glad it was there, because I was thoroughly entertained by the two of them running rampant throughout the city, and how everyone reacted to it.



Of the action, I have to say, as I mentioned earlier, that Torri took this role and absolutely ran with it. I enjoy every single moment of Phoebus and her attempts to kill Thalen. She became a brutal, frighteningly ruthless character, and it was fun to watch.




She shot Carson. AND Rodney!

According to the commentary--which you should listen to, it is one of the two full commentaries Torri makes, and this is one is very informative (the other, which is she and Rachel Luttrell conversing over 'Sanctuary' isn't quite as production focused). For example, we find out she had to train quite a bit for that fighting sequence between her and Lorne's team. The director complements her on her abilities to execute that scene.




Aww...Chuck's a little concerned.

Now...about the hair. In the commentary, Torri mentions she spoke with the hair and makeup people, and they determined that Phoebus should have one hair strand loose and hanging in her face to distinguish her from Elizabeth (who is apparently always impeccably groomed). I really would never have thought about it, but it shows you how detail-oriented production is.



One of my favorite lines occurs during the chase sequence, and it involves Ronon and Teyla.

BALCONY. At Teyla and Ronon's position, the lights go out. Elizabeth looks around towards where the other two are hiding, then races to the balcony and vaults over it. Ronon and Teyla run to the balcony. Ronon aims his stunner down to where Elizabeth dropped but it's too dark to see anything.

DEX: How'd she know?
TEYLA: Intuition.
DEX: Alright, we need to split up. I'll take Sheppard, you go after Weir.
TEYLA: Why?
DEX: `Cause I know how he thinks. I don't have the slightest clue how *she* thinks. (He runs off.)
TEYLA: Very well.

That was a brilliant nod to female vs. male intuition. *applauds writers*





I mentioned that I didn't enjoy Joe's acting as much as Torri's, but I honestly don't blame Joe for this. Amidst everything going on, I don't think he really got the chance to differentiate Thalen and John. Phoebus got a few opening scenes, plus she pretended coy. And, Elizabeth being non-active and a negotiator means that Phoebus's take-no-prisoners approach was going to stand out. I do think, though, that Thalen was supposed to be a little less ruthless than Phoebus. We hear him call for help when Ronon is shot.




This is one of those moments you are scared for Ronon. Doesn't happen much, and it was welcome here.

Subliminal Sparky 3: John is 'screaming': After Ronon is shot, we here Thalen mention how John is 'screaming in his head' at that moment. While I don't doubt that much of that concern is for Ronon, I do think it goes beyond just this scene. John and Elizabeth bring up in the end how they were unable to do anything but were completely aware of everything happening. In my own mind, some of that screaming goes to the fact that Thalen is determined to kill Phoebus/Elizabeth and there is nothing he can do to stop him.





Phoebus's brutal, if effective, lock down of Atlantis makes for some really tense moments as the story winds down. I really enjoyed how evil Torri could take her. She was convincing enough that I was thinking "Phoebus" not "Elizabeth possessed" by the time this sequence came around.




Don't mess with the rogue hair strand.


Poor John.

Coming up...Back in the control room; Teyla saves the day, but Sparky ends the episode...

[Scary Kitty]

Is it just me who thinks this? But in nearly all the pictures I’ve seen from season four and five. You can see the darkness in John’s eyes, ever since TMC.

It's not just you. He has gotten a lot darker.

I've heard this comment from non-shippers as well. I've been a bit surprised that people think he's remembering her. Gotta be JF. It's certainly not the writers.

It's definitely JF. And I think it's very telling that a lot of gen viewers are also recognizing Elizabeth's importance in being a nexus of emotional character development. None of the other characters have been able to fill those shoes.

Makes sense, the way i saw it a lot if not all his character moments came from interactions with Elizabeth/Torri. It really elevated his character to being more than the mostly 2 dimensional caricature that the writers seem to want to give us lately. You get the feeling that Joe and Torri probably played off each other really well in their scenes. The decision to get rid of Torri seems to have done more than just remove Elizabeth it seems to have also ripped out a lot of John's character and Joe's more meatier/dramatic scenes.

Joe and Torri really did play well off each other; their scenes together, no matter what the context was, were always so much richer than many of their scenes apart. Getting rid of Torri ripped out the heart of the show.

So true and I fear this new direction for him is going to finish him off. But JF did a fabulous acting job in S&R, so I think he'll not let the character be totally destroyed.

JF strikes me as being a bit of a stubborn type, like Sheppard. And I look forward to seeing JF continue to tug Sheppard away from what's written in the script to where he knows (and we know) Shep should be.

[Wormhole]

It's not just you. He has gotten a lot darker.

I wonder how John would react, if she ever were to return, would that dark streak disappear or would it hang over him for long time as the hidden guilt ate away at him.

Destiny has been re-loaded btw. Please let me know what you all think.

[Eri13]

The Long Goodbye, Part 3

I have so much fun analyzing John and Elizabeth's possessions in this episode I almost forget about all the other people involved. One of the more interesting developments is actually seeing Caldwell in control of Atlantis. Now, considering how much he's barked at Elizabeth's approach, it is very interesting how much he waffles when faced with the tough choice of sacrificing John over the residents of Atlantis. A result of hanging with Weir? Or did Caldwell just underestimate how difficult being in charge of Atlantis really was?



Also interesting is how much Elizabeth knows that can cripple Atlantis. Apparently, she can do a LOT. I'm assuming Phoebus was relying on Elizabeth's knowledge of the Halon gas/life support conduits--not that she was just a scientific genius who could figure that out. Though we might not expect it, Elizabeth is apparently very dangerous in her knowledge of the city.



The ending sequences confused me a bit--and no, I'm not referring to the John/Teyla reference, that was perfectly clear. Were we supposed to be as confused as Teyla that that was really John coming through at any point during that scene? Or was there a point we knew it was him? Is Thalen playing Teyla because he knows that John knows that Teyla has a crush on him? Or does John really feel that way? I ended up getting a little confused.

What is very clear is that Phoebus is aware of the implications of the situation, because Elizabeth is clear. Being objective for a moment, I do think she knows there is meaning to the Teyla and John relationship, because she mentions it didn't surprise her that Teyla caught him. She is also very nasty in forcing Teyla to 'kill' him. Which I think is a triple stab at Thalen, Teyla and Elizabeth, too.

I'm not doubting Elizabeth senses John and Teyla have a bond. Elizabeth, for me, is that kind of person. She would see how he cares about other people. And now being non-objective, for me this doesn't disrupt the relationship between Elizabeth and John at all, because, well, I'm a Sparky, and I choose to see that bond as more powerful than any others.

If you wanted to be a little snittish, you could make an argument that Phoebus forcing Teyla to kill Thalen is subliminal sparky number 4, because you could argue Phoebus is forcing Teyla to do this because of Elizabeth's own feelings about the situation. I personally don't think Elizabeth would be jealous enough to want any kind of revenge on Teyla--I've never looked at the ships that way--but you could argue it for fun, if you wanted.





One final point on the 'death' scene--what was the meaning of 'you would have shot her either way?' I was always curious as to what that meant. Why was Teyla so certain John would have shot Elizabeth? I didn't think John had ever made it crystal clear that he wouldn't waver in a situation like this. Or did I miss something?





Not-so-Subliminal Sparky 5.

While the Teyla/John ship did get some things to discuss this episode, I think the end swings it completely back to Sparky in a big, big way.

The ending scene is a hilarious wrap-up to the day's events and one of my favorite scenes. For one thing, you have John, trying to act completely nonchalant, and on the other you have Elizabeth scrambling to understand what's happened and rectify the wrongs done.

And both trying to pretend they didn't remember everything that happened during possession.







Poor Elizabeth. She gets needled at every side--reminded of shooting Ronon, and then her insult to Caldwell.



And speaking of kissing, I could kiss Caldwell for what he says next:

CALDWELL: ...Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm sure you'll both agree that the paperwork on this is going to be a nightmare ... (he smiles wickedly) especially that kiss.

(John and Elizabeth stare at him in horror.)

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir!

CALDWELL: Well, try not to kill each other while I'm gone.

*snickers* I LOVE this moment. The expression on John's face in particular--I think it hearkens to everything implied before they went on the rampage. We can't forget that, initially, John believed that's what they would essentially be doing.

But I love that they act awkward and embarrassed, because that completely canonizes Sparky for me. I think it's harder to take because it's more than just kissing a friend, it's tapping those deeper feelings they try to conceal.

But I won't ever let go of the fact that, as far as John was concerned, spending a few hours possessed by a man who was going to say goodbye to his wife--who happened to be possessing Elizabeth--was a good idea.

Overall, I enjoy "The Long Goodbye" more for the unique elements--the fun had by the actors, the difference in tone than one of those easy 'good guy' vs. 'bad guy' episodes, and some of the romantic implications. But because both ships are pitted against each other here, canonically TLG isn't my favorite. Because Sparky is more than intentionally played with here, it gets stuffed into weird corners and pitted against other ships, and for me, that's not as much fun as the gentler, quieter moments where Joe and Torri's chemistry adds the spark.

What do you think? Do you disagree with me and LOVE TLG? What do you think about the Teyla/John moments? How convincing were Torri and Joe? What about how everyone else handled the situation? Discuss!

[Southern Red]

Eri, I won't quote your long analysis but it was fabulous as usual. You don't leave much for the rest of us to add.

I've always been puzzled about that "you would have shot her either way" line too. Still don't know for sure but think she meant John would do what had to be done to save the city and since the weapon was a stunner Elizabeth wouldn't have been killed.

As for the shippy Sheyla line, there was much discussion originally. Most people thought Thalan was lying and Teyla didn't believe him. I just think it was the usual ambiguous writing to tease the shippers.

[Falcon Horus]

I always get a kick out of how befuddled John seems here, hesitantly bringing his arms up to hug Elizabeth back because he's so nervous and doesn't want to look like he's too eager when we all know that all he wants to do is sweep her off her feet and kiss her senseless. *happy sigh*

Actually no... *shatters the happy bubble* ...He just suffers from the like-hugging-a-tree-syndrome. His personal space is invaded and his mind doesn't know what to do with that, thus his body and mind freeze for a second before they realize it's a friendly exchange and relax a little.

*runs and hides*

[gateraid]

Actually no... *shatters the happy bubble* ...He just suffers from the like-hugging-a-tree-syndrome. His personal space is invaded and his mind doesn't know what to do with that, thus his body and mind freeze for a second before they realize it's a friendly exchange and relax a little.

*runs and hides*

No need to run & hide. I'd have to admit I do that too (the hugging a tree). Where do you put your hands? How tightly do you hug back - too tight & you feel like a perv, too loose & you risk being cold. There needs to be a hug do/don't list. It's why I don't initiate them. Except these

(((hugs)))

[gateraid]

Eri, I won't quote your long analysis but it was fabulous as usual. You don't leave much for the rest of us to add.

I've always been puzzled about that "you would have shot her either way" line too. Still don't know for sure but think she meant John would do what had to be done to save the city and since the weapon was a stunner Elizabeth wouldn't have been killed.

As for the shippy Sheyla line, there was much discussion originally. Most people thought Thalan was lying and Teyla didn't believe him. I just think it was the usual ambiguous writing to tease the shippers.

With that line, I always interpretted it as whichever weapon Teyla handed to Thalan, he was going to shoot Phoebus with it, therefore the logical thing to do would be to give him a stunner so that he didn't kill Weir (merely stun her). But it's been a while since I saw that ep.
Re the Sheyla line, it's certainly clear that Teyla doesn't trust him. But to me that line is more like something they put in for when they do decide to canonise the ship - hey, look, he's had these feelings for like ever, duh. And if they don't (which seems less likely) then it didn't mean anything coz the evil dead alien was messing with Teyla

[Southern Red]

With that line, I always interpretted it as whichever weapon Teyla handed to Thalan, he was going to shoot Phoebus with it, therefore the logical thing to do would be to give him a stunner so that he didn't kill Weir (merely stun her). But it's been a while since I saw that ep.
Re the Sheyla line, it's certainly clear that Teyla doesn't trust him. But to me that line is more like something they put in for when they do decide to canonise the ship - hey, look, he's had these feelings for like ever, duh. And if they don't (which seems less likely) then it didn't mean anything coz the evil dead alien was messing with Teyla

Good points. So many ways to look at both scenes. Mainly it just adds up to sloppy writing. They don't think ahead enough to use foreshadowing on purpose. lol

[gateraid]

Good points. So many ways to look at both scenes. Mainly it just adds up to sloppy writing. They don't think ahead enough to use foreshadowing on purpose. lol

TPTB: Foreshadowing? What's that?

It never occured to me until reading your post that it might have actually been John shooting Phoebus/Weir to stop her from making any further attempt to harm the city. Many different interpretations indeed

Loved your Sheyla pics btw.