Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Buggy542]

Squeeeee! That was such a cute fic Mel!

On HZ... I didn't really mind that stuff, but now that you mention it... I can see your point. I still like the episode though, I laughed too much at Rodney and that prime number scene not to.

[SallyLizzie]

After reading the transcripts posted earlier, the thing that stood out at me was how much John and Liz behaved like children throwing a tantrum. We've got John saying 'i don't like what i'm being told to do so i'm going to ignore the leader and do what i want anyway', and we have Liz saying 'John disobeyed my orders so i'm going to stare at my laptop and pretend i don't here him'. It's classic behaviour of sulky children when they can't get their own way, and i should know, i sulked enough when i was a kid ....still do at times
But that's okay bc as it's been said, they are still learning how to be leaders and trying to 'find their feet'. So in that aspect they are children - presons who still have a lot to learn.

The other thing that stood out at me was how they need to differentiate between professionalism and friendship. Throughout the ep John switches from addressing her as 'Dr. Weir' and 'Elizabeth'. I don't think he set out to use this as a form of manipulation, i think it ties in with them still 'finding thier feet'. From the start they've been colleagues but now they've started to build a friendship, so it gets harder to focus on the issue at hand, especially when these new emotions are brought into play. You can't solve problems as friends when you are using the 'i'm the boss' card to get your own way, and this is where the trust issues come into it.

I actually like seeing this kind of confrontation. It portrayed a learning curve in a very believable way. Of course i'd like to see more *squee* moments between the two of them, but i also like seeing the angsty moments - as long as they serve a purpose and are not repetitive. Yes, this is not the first disagreement they have had and i'm sure it wont be the last, but the difference between HZ and Rising is that here John undermines Liz publically whereas in Rising, Liz drags him onto the balcony IIRC. I think this is the ep where they both go 'okay, well this is ckearky not working so we have to find another way of leading together'.

It'd been said before but i'll say it again. The main problem they had in this ep was instinct. Liz is used to having preparation time to learn, review and choose a best plan of action. As far as we know she has never been in the position where she has to make rash decisions with no/very little intel. John is used to thinking on his feet, acting for the moment on instinct. He is used to being given orders, and whether he complies with those orders or not, he is still being given options. He isn't used to having to think things through and plan for what effect actions will have in the long run. That is why he is a Major and not a General.
They are still adjusting to life in Pegasus and what they need to understand is the grandure of things and that a lot of morals/rules/policies etc that they had on Earth are no longer aplicable.
Once they realise this and get past the friendship/leader/trust issues, they can start to learn from each other and grow as people and become better, more efficient leaders. I think we see how this has happened by The Siege but i think there is more of it that could be explored.

[Hatcheter]

It'd been said before but i'll say it again. The main problem they had in this ep was instinct. Liz is used to having preparation time to learn, review and choose a best plan of action. As far as we know she has never been in the position where she has to make rash decisions with no/very little intel. John is used to thinking on his feet, acting for the moment on instinct. He is used to being given orders, and whether he complies with those orders or not, he is still being given options. He isn't used to having to think things through and plan for what effect actions will have in the long run. That is why he is a Major and not a General.

Sheppard's not a general because he hasn't been in the service long enough to get any stars.

I do agree that Elizabeth was over-thinking the situation. In Sheppard's view, everything she proposed had already failed, and by holding him where he was, she put a hundred people at risk, when he could go and put only himself and Teyla in harm's way.

I think that Sheppard had the neccessary plan, but his actions were wrong. A little more effort might have convinced Weir of that. He could have turned it into a military situation: there was a biological weapon inbound on the city center, and nothing the control room could do to intercept it.



Oh, and great fic, Melyanna.

[Tigon_(5)]

oooo, big long juicy posts! i agree with what most of you are saying. I agree with baroness in that John was being a jerk, not only to Liz but Teyla too. He didn't even ask her what she though and he volunteered her to go with him (she didn't say anything at the time but still).

I agree with what melyanna said too. Neither of them was ready to sacrifice the other which, though we shippers love so much, is not good for them as leaders.

merlin7- I don't want to be rude but i disagree with most of what you said. Why should weir have stepped out? i think she was doing a good job and making the right decisions. oh and btw, are you obsessed with rodney or something? he may be a genius but that doesn't make him the right person to lead.

everyone else, i agree except about liz over thinking. She had some time to make a decision and she used it, that's all.

[SallyLizzie]

Sheppard's not a general because he hasn't been in the service long enough to get any stars.

That's what i meant. He doesn't have the experience.

There's a great angsty fic at ff called On The Edge It's SW but it mainly focuses on Liz, especially in the first 2 chapters (4 in total)

[Merlin7]

merlin7- I don't want to be rude but i disagree with most of what you said. Why should weir have stepped out? i think she was doing a good job and making the right decisions. oh and btw, are you obsessed with rodney or something? he may be a genius but that doesn't make him the right person to lead.

You can disagree all you like. I disagree with you so..there you go. What did Weir contribute, is my point? Nothing. She couldn't contribute on a scientific or military level. She could DO anything to save them. She was just the GO/YES person and she did wait too long. She didn't feel they were THERE yet when they were.

Obsessed with Rodney? That's funnier than you know. Not in the least. I'm going by what happened on the show. John followed Rodney's lead. Rodney WAS the person calling the shots because he was the one who figured out what was going on and what to do. I never said anything about Rodney being the LEADER. Just that in THIS instance HE was the one who knew what to do. Weir had nothing to contribute to help them on ANY level. Which happens. Nothing that went on was her area of expertise.

Weir didn't make the right decisions, per se. And I don't see John as a jerk in the least. They both messed up. And John didn't force Teyla to go with him. He left and she decided to follow. he didn't order her to do so.

And TEYLA was an awful big hypocrite in LFP.

I'm seeing John get blasted when he wasn't the only one who made mistakes here. AND he did save everyone. That's bottom line for me. If I had been Ford or Zelenka and Weir hadn't been pushed by Sheppard and Rodney..I'd be dead. I'm not BLIND TO Weir's mistakes.

Like I said. I like her flaws. Makes her human. Just like Shep is human.

[Baroness]

I'm glad the way you all have responded. All the opinions and ways in which we see the same ep. Like I said, and I want you to understand this, I know why it had to happened I'm just not to happy about the way it did. It was too rude for me. Personally. But we all agree that the ep has helped them grow and that is totally great. About Liz stepping out, no, why should she? It's not about sticking to her guns, it's about the fact that they all are her responsibility. She cannot just say, ' do what you want bc I have no idea what to do' bc who really knows what to do right away. That's why she was trying to give herself time to come up with the better solution. And we all know she always listens to suggestions and imput from the others so she can make informed desicions.

Anyway, the ep was a step up in many ways for those two, even if they had to go through this lesson with bloody noses. Don't blame me for not wanting them to be at odds like this. Remember, it's just the way I feel.

Congrats to us all for our smart and mature discussion of this important happening between our fav couple.

[Easter Lily]

*another pops in from lurkdom*

Great discussion everyone...

It fascinates me that from the same event, we can have such disparate views regarding the characters and their actions or inaction as it is in this case. Sheppard interests me greatly as an anachronism... a warrior who uses his guts and instincts to carry out his tasks. At times it works to good effect but at times it clashes with the rational, diplomatic, methodical Dr Weir. I find this clash interesting because it is a clash of equally valid world views. Two people with equally valid concerns going head to head... and how...
There has been a lot of criticism of Weir as being indecisive and Sheppard as being impulsive... Some of it has been blamed on poor character development but I don't think so. I believe that Weir is acting consistently with her occupation as a negotiator, diplomat... to wait things out... Sheppard is acting as he always has... a man of action guided by his senses... to do something in the face of trouble. He is doing what he always does... to act... and to save. This event comes not long after The Eye in which Sheppard, almost single-handedly takes on a raiding party.
What surprises me most is Weir thinking that Sheppard will sit around for an extended period without doing anything. She misreads him and it is quite a jolt to her that he is acting in a way that he has always done!
Of course, in this instance it doesn't suit her for him to act in the way that he does but then she must learn how to use that propensity in a way that would benefit everyone while not undermining his or her authority. I believe that there was a paradigm shift for Weir... a realisation that the greatest problem for her on this exploration is not the Wraith but that she needs to exert her leadership in such a way that balances the military aspects with the explorative aspects.

Many have pointed out how members of the exploration team are quite unsuitable. My take on it is that they are becoming suitable... a process... rather than the fact that they have already become. That is what I like about Atlantis... these are real people... who are learning about themselves and the world they now inhabit. It reminds me of when I was a beginning teacher... I stumbled, I made mistakes but after 7 odd years, I'm still learning but with experience I can deal with situations better than I did.

[Merlin7]

*another pops in from lurkdom*

Great discussion everyone...

It fascinates me that from the same event, we can have such disparate views regarding the characters and their actions or inaction as it is in this case. Sheppard interests me greatly as an anachronism... a warrior who uses his guts and instincts to carry out his tasks. At times it works to good effect but at times it clashes with the rational, diplomatic, methodical Dr Weir. I find this clash interesting because it is a clash of equally valid world views. Two people with equally valid concerns going head to head... and how...
There has been a lot of criticism of Weir as being indecisive and Sheppard as being impulsive... Some of it has been blamed on poor character development but I don't think so. I believe that Weir is acting consistently with her occupation as a negotiator, diplomat... to wait things out... Sheppard is acting as he always has... a man of action guided by his senses... to do something in the face of trouble. He is doing what he always does... to act... and to save. This event comes not long after The Eye in which Sheppard, almost single-handedly takes on a raiding party.
What surprises me most is Weir thinking that Sheppard will sit around for an extended period without doing anything. She misreads him and it is quite a jolt to her that he is acting in a way that he has always done!
Of course, in this instance it doesn't suit her for him to act in the way that he does but then she must learn how to use that propensity in a way that would benefit everyone while not undermining his or her authority. I believe that there was a paradigm shift for Weir... a realisation that the greatest problem for her on this exploration is not the Wraith but that she needs to exert her leadership in such a way that balances the military aspects with the explorative aspects.

Many have pointed out how members of the exploration team are quite unsuitable. My take on it is that they are becoming suitable... a process... rather than the fact that they have already become. That is what I like about Atlantis... these are real people... who are learning about themselves and the world they now inhabit. It reminds me of when I was a beginning teacher... I stumbled, I made mistakes but after 7 odd years, I'm still learning but with experience I can deal with situations better than I did.

I responded to this, reread before I was about to send and realized all I had really done is go WORD to everything you said. You just said it with far more eloquence than I could.

Well put and yeah...exactly. Yeah.

[Tomcatter]

Woo-hoo, my first post in this thread! But I AM a shipper and I DID write a ship story, so that should count for something, lol.

I liked the interaction betweeen these two in Hot Zone. Yes, it was antagonistic, and yes, it certainly wasn't shippy per se, but it was some nice development in their relationship. First off, it delved into each character's personalities: John, being mistrustful of orders and Liz being indecisive considering this is a new realm for her. That being said, I think this problem of the virus in the episode was a big step forward for individual character development.

Personally, I think John was right, but went about it the wrong way.

I'm sure both Liz and John won't be acting the same way toward each other on season 2 because I'm sure they know each other much better now. And they already have shown that they respect each other deeply.

OMG, I just saw Sci-Fi's sneak peek at Atlantis season two during SG-1 Monday; turn on Sci-Fi now if you haven't seen it! Now!

[SallyLizzie]

WELCOME TOMCATTER!!
Always nice to see another JohnLiz shipper delurk here
Where's your story posted? I'd love to read it

Personally, I think John was right, but went about it the wrong way.

Exactly!

[Egeanin]

OMG, I just saw Sci-Fi's sneak peek at Atlantis season two during SG-1 Monday; turn on Sci-Fi now if you haven't seen it! Now!

Not to get away from the great discussion on HZ, which I will expand on later. But OMG the sneak peek was on?! I've been sitting here for three hours trying to catch it and I leave for one minute and what happens? It COMES ON!

Okay, I can breathe again, I just pray that it comes on again or so help me...
If it doesn't or I don't see it, will you be so kind as to give me a blow by blow? Please? Pretty please?

[Melyanna]

I believe that there was a paradigm shift for Weir... a realisation that the greatest problem for her on this exploration is not the Wraith but that she needs to exert her leadership in such a way that balances the military aspects with the explorative aspects.

Beautiful way of putting it. As hurt as I think Elizabeth probably was by Sheppard's actions, I think she also realized that her indecision could have cost lives. (I say could because it's always possible that they would have found some other way to save everyone. For all we know, it's possible that they could have drawn blood from those with the Ancient gene and injected it in those without, like they did in the SG-1 episode "Legacy", where a bunch of people got infected by some technology that made them go crazy.)

But at the same time, she had to deal with Sheppard's insubordination, because it's not a given that his insubordination will always turn out to save lives. She couldn't just let him walk away from that, and she was in an impossible position, because she had to acknowledge that his actions saved the day while reprimanding him for those very actions. (Incidentally, I have a feeling that the incident in Afghanistan didn't actually save lives, or ended up costing more lives than it saved. Hopefully they'll get into that next season.)

I agree that one of her biggest problems is separating military from scientific and recognizing that sometimes the boundaries blur, but I'd say her biggest problem to date is willingness to sacrifice others. She's got to be able to do that, and she just wasn't willing to in Hot Zone, even though John was willing to take that risk.

Was it a shift for her? I think that was part of it, and the other part was Before I Sleep. As Rodney said in that episode, it's good to know that when the situation arises, you'd lay down your life for someone else. Somewhere along the way — and I'm honestly not sure where — I think she came to the realization that she can't keep everyone alive, and that it's really not exclusively her fault that people die. People would have died under anyone's command. It's hard to accept, but at the same time, I think it's comforting.

[Melyanna]

If it doesn't or I don't see it, will you be so kind as to give me a blow by blow? Please? Pretty please?

Here's an analysis of the trailer, with caps, by yours truly. Also, a humorous version that I did when I probably should have been asleep.

Neither is dial-up friendly, just so you know. Lots of pictures in each.

[Egeanin]

Here's an analysis of the trailer, with caps, by yours truly. Also, a humorous version that I did when I probably should have been asleep.

Neither is dial-up friendly, just so you know. Lots of pictures in each.

Thanks! I think you're right on your analysis of the trailer and I love the humorous one, because it gave me the laugh I've needed all day.