Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Thoughts on Allies in regards to

Spoiler:

the random blonde scientist. Actually I thought that was kinda cute. I would have done the same thing, but I loved the way he ignored her. There were also at least 2 blonde crew members on the Orion whom he ignored also. What's with the high # of blondes. Hmmm?

I've thought about that fact that his flirting seems to mostly be off world also. I still think Chaya did some sort of mind thing on him. And in Inferno

Spoiler:

how he completely changed his demeanor when Elizabeth was around. Didn't even glance at Narina. Also later when they were talking with Rodney in Liz's office John casually mentioned Narina to Rodney. Not a hint of interest for himself though. Hmm again?

I think it's more than just authority that keeps John from thinking about Liz as a woman. Whenever I ramble on about John's motives and thought processes my husband always says 3 words back to me. "He's a guy." To manly men the word "guy" is a lot more than just gender. It's an entire way of thinking. The Mars/Venus thing. Guys are pretty simple. Like JF himself recently said, 2 dimensional. That's a great way of putting it. If their basic needs are met, they don't look much past the obvious. John IMO literally has not thought about Elizabeth and a romantic situation. In his world so far, you meet a woman, ask her out and proceed from there. That's not exactly what's happening with her, and he's shut her away in that little part of his brain that handles feelings until he has time to deal with her. Something will have to force his hand. Like her being in danger. I always go back to the last scene in TLG

Spoiler:

because I see that as the most significant scene between them all season. Maybe ever. She's out of danger for the moment, but he's right there vigilant just in case. But occupying his mind so he won't have to think about why he's watching over her.

[Major_Moomin]

I think it's more than just authority that keeps John from thinking about Liz as a woman. Whenever I ramble on about John's motives and thought processes my husband always says 3 words back to me. "He's a guy." To manly men the word "guy" is a lot more than just gender. It's an entire way of thinking. The Mars/Venus thing. Guys are pretty simple. Like JF himself recently said, 2 dimensional. That's a great way of putting it. If their basic needs are met, they don't look much past the obvious. John IMO literally has not thought about Elizabeth and a romantic situation. In his world so far, you meet a woman, ask her out and proceed from there. That's not exactly what's happening with her, and he's shut her away in that little part of his brain that handles feelings until he has time to deal with her. Something will have to force his hand. Like her being in danger. I always go back to the last scene in TLG

Spoiler:

because I see that as the most significant scene between them all season. Maybe ever. She's out of danger for the moment, but he's right there vigilant just in case. But occupying his mind so he won't have to think about why he's watching over her.

It makes me laugh that the one time this season

Spoiler:

where she's been in any real danger...and he can't do a damn thing about it!

Something will definately have to force his hand for sure I put it into three catagories...

Spoiler:

1) Liz in a life or death situation
2) Liz meeting another man (My reason for this being that she fits into his catagory of 'available when he's ran out of space ho's)
3) The both of them meeting on grounds that doesn't include work, where he can see her for a woman. (at a presidential ball for example...she's in a dress...he's in Dress Blues...ok, I know what i'm talking about in my head...I hope you know what i'm getting at)

[Vicky]

It makes me laugh that the one time this season

Spoiler:

where she's been in any real danger...and he can't do a damn thing about it!

Something will definately have to force his hand for sure I put it into three catagories...

Spoiler:

1) Liz in a life or death situation
2) Liz meeting another man (My reason for this being that she fits into his catagory of 'available when he's ran out of space ho's)
3) The both of them meeting on grounds that doesn't include work, where he can see her for a woman. (at a presidential ball for example...she's in a dress...he's in Dress Blues...ok, I know what i'm talking about in my head...I hope you know what i'm getting at)

I love your third point!

Spoiler:

John in dress blues... That would be so cool and since we haven't seen him receive his promotion to Lt-Colonel, it's seems right!
And since I don't think he ever saw Elizabeth in a dress, that would lead him to drool! lol

[SGLAB]

[snip] Whenever I ramble on about John's motives and thought processes my husband always says 3 words back to me. "He's a guy." [snip]

You have a very insightful husband.

[Bama]

I think it's more than just authority that keeps John from thinking about Liz as a woman. Whenever I ramble on about John's motives and thought processes my husband always says 3 words back to me. "He's a guy." To manly men the word "guy" is a lot more than just gender. It's an entire way of thinking. The Mars/Venus thing. Guys are pretty simple.

Southern, my husband always says the same! So, is it really as simple as that you think? That unlike the off-world babes who have come onto him, Elizabeth has never made an overt move of her own to indicate romantic interest? My husband says that with women men are constantly trying to read the signals and that men just give back what they get. And yeah that is so very basic and won't always read correctly because women are very adept and hiding and confusing. Elizabeth goes to bat for him and he respects her back. Elizabeth flirts and he flirts back. Elizabeth hugs and he hugs back. The pattern hints it may have to be her to make the overt move unless it can tke place off-world where in their subconscious minds the unwritten and self-enforced 'rules' simply won't quite apply as strictly.

The only time Elizabeth has made a physical overture toward him, he reacted to her for imo, just like he would any another attractive woman who'd pulled him into her arms. In that blinking of an eye moment, he looked at her purely as a male looks at a female and then the wall went back up just as quickly.

Vicky, I'm going for your number THREE.

[Vicky]

Vicky, I'm going for your number THREE.

Uh, not my number 3, Major_Moomin's one!

[Major_Moomin]

[Bama]

Hey, I'm over 35, at work and doing this when I'm supposed to be working.

Cut me some slack.

Sorry Major. Good number three. It makes the most sense to me.

[Major_Moomin]

Hey, I'm over 35, at work and doing this when I'm supposed to be working.

Cut me some slack.

Sorry Major. Good number three. It makes the most sense to me.

So unappreciated... *sigh*

No probs Bama...I sit at work thinking of all these scenarios!...on my breaks of course...

[Southern Red]

Southern, my husband always says the same! So, is it really as simple as that you think? That unlike the off-world babes who have come onto him, Elizabeth has never made an overt move of her own to indicate romantic interest? My husband says that with women men are constantly trying to read the signals and that men just give back what they get. And yeah that is so very basic and won't always read correctly because women are very adept and hiding and confusing. Elizabeth goes to bat for him and he respects her back. Elizabeth flirts and he flirts back. Elizabeth hugs and he hugs back. The pattern hints it may have to be her to make the overt move unless it can tke place off-world where in their subconscious minds the unwritten and self-enforced 'rules' simply won't quite apply as strictly.

The only time Elizabeth has made a physical overture toward him, he reacted to her for imo, just like he would any another attractive woman who'd pulled him into her arms. In that blinking of an eye moment, he looked at her purely as a male looks at a female and then the wall went back up just as quickly.

Vicky, I'm going for your number THREE.

I think it is that simple. Remember we are talking about MALE writers, so any thoughts we assign to John comes from them. Remember how surprised they were over the reaction to

Spoiler:

the hug?

Imagine what they must be going through right now. Ratings stayed at the 1.5 series low for Michael but went up for the shows on either side of them. Why? We could give them a long list, but do they see it the same way we do? We are mostly interested in one little aspect, but there are a whole lot of things to consider. The internet fan base has been very vocal and largely contradictory, but throwing out the extremes we pretty much agree that more character development, continuity and good plots are needed.

Where does that leave ship, and more importantly Sparky? Nobody can predict. They may "jump the shark" and go all out with a soap opera. They may drop any hint of romance and play to the science aspects. They may go action hero and blow stuff up. This of course would probably involve random bimboage. Sex sells baby. The overall question is will they misjudge and repeat past mistakes. More than likely.

Who do TPTB listen to? It's hard to tell. Going back over the changes they made in S2 it seems they respect fan opinion. After all they did make Beckett a regular and since the beginning have given Zalenka a bigger role. We know they changed the Shep/Weir as antagonists angle, but we don't know what caused that decision. We can assume it was their own eyes watching them on screen, but then why don't they see the UST. TH and JF have both been surprised when fans bring up their on screen connection. It's not written in their scripts, and they don't even admit to adding it. JF right out said there's not tension with Weir, but there is with Teyla. Because that's what he was told. I guess he's waiting for the Wraith war to be over so they can get on with the lovin'. I don't know. They are both getting lots of feedback from fans at cons and don't seem to know quite how to handle it.

Sheyla has been scripted, but Sparky keeps on surprising everybody. If I were a PTB, I'd sit down and watch the shows and actually look for Sparky. I think they know the Sparky nation is out here but maybe not how big we are. Which brings us to the question why do so many people see something that doesn't exist? What will TPTB do? Ignore us? What other fan base gets ignored? The science geeks, the slashers, the noromos, the get-rid-of-Ronon crowd? They can't cater to a certain group. They have to go with what they think will work, and whether they do the wrong thing will depend on your focus.

They must be wondering why we got so excited by the

Spoiler:

hug and kiss

. Not one single romantic moment between John and Liz has been written. They are clearly, however, considering it. I refer you back to the last spoiler. Why do those things if they are going to keep them just friends? It's a test. I've lived a long time and seen a lot of romances play out on screen. There are certain telltale signs and Sparky is full of them. But I don't think, at least in S2, the actors have been brought into the loop. The writers may be waiting to see what develops on screen. I think they misjudged the perception of the advocates for John/Teyla because I am convinced that Conversion was meant to be the end of that ship. I said so at the time. But

Spoiler:

if the writers thought a large % of female fans would see romance in that kiss, we've got a real problem. If they think like that we'll never get a real romance.

We just have to keep being logical and reasonable, and maybe some lurker will go back and tell them how we think. That we don't want a soap opera for the A plot, a love triangle or constant sex. Keep it PG. We'd love our kids to be able to watch. If the romance isn't too cheesy or sappy, the noromos will come around. You'll probably laugh, but the problem is JF's face. Somewhere it's written in the SciFi writers' handbook that a goodlooking hero must hook up with a hot babe or two. He can't possibly be tied down with one woman. Spread the love, baby. Now speaking as a woman, I'd be more interested if he turned the chicks down. Give him hot and cold running cheerleaders and let him tip his hat (figuratively of course), say "thank you ma'am, but no thank you" and bring his fine butt home to Liz. Women would swoon. Ratings would soar. I sure hope somebody is listening.

[Rubicon]

Hmmrfp! I came to the thread to read all kinds of polly posts. SR you are not making me feel better!
I was hoping to hear con reports re: Sparky really taking over the galaxy! From where I'm standing Sparky is so simple to do. And would really add character depth to the two leads.

I liked the finale, but again with the-- "Oh! No! John & Rodney dead, and Ronon too!" I mean, come on. They are not dead, don't worry Liz, and they will fix it in 1 or 2 eps in S.3. Now if it had been Carson, Zelinka & 2 random Marines, I'd actually be nervous, TPTB like to kill their tertiary characters. eek.
And how many chances are they gonna give the Wraith? I think the crew need to put the Wraith in permanent time-out, no more chances. Shoot first, talk never.
Even tho' I was kinda spoiled for Allies, I liked it compared to the crap they were feeding me recently.

We just have to keep being logical and reasonable, and maybe some lurker will go back and tell them how we think. That we don't want a soap opera for the A plot, a love triangle or constant sex. Keep it PG. We'd love our kids to be able to watch. If the romance isn't too cheesy or sappy, the noromos will come around. You'll probably laugh, but the problem is JF's face. Somewhere it's written in the SciFi writers' handbook that a goodlooking hero must hook up with a hot babe or two. He can't possibly be tied down with one woman. Spread the love, baby. Now speaking as a woman, I'd be more interested if he turned the chicks down.

Yes. What SR said.

When, even, my "guy" of a SO, asks if Sheppard was gonna hook-up with the Wraith Queen. It's bad, real bad.

[Chrysalis]

It makes me laugh that the one time this season

Spoiler:

where she's been in any real danger...and he can't do a damn thing about it!

Something will definately have to force his hand for sure I put it into three catagories...

Spoiler:

1) Liz in a life or death situation
2) Liz meeting another man (My reason for this being that she fits into his catagory of 'available when he's ran out of space ho's)
3) The both of them meeting on grounds that doesn't include work, where he can see her for a woman. (at a presidential ball for example...she's in a dress...he's in Dress Blues...ok, I know what i'm talking about in my head...I hope you know what i'm getting at)

Bring on number 3, MM! Actually, I'm all for number 1 or number 3. Not so keen on number 2, though if it's not done the way Shep's is, perhaps it would be okay.

There must be away of having number 3 happen. Plenty of contact with earth these days, so it's doable!

[Erised]

Bring on number 3, MM! Actually, I'm all for number 1 or number 3. Not so keen on number 2, though if it's not done the way Shep's is, perhaps it would be okay.

There must be away of having number 3 happen. Plenty of contact with earth these days, so it's doable!

I agree with Ali.. number two is a no no in my little world.

edit: SR, I love how you put things together there. I agree that we need loads of character development but TPTB don't need to stick sparky anywhere. It's natural. Torri and Joe have a chemistry on the screen, that's why sparky fandom started when sheyla was in writers' minds. Season two was just natural and maybe not many people have seen the ship back then, if you go back now, you notice all the little moments between John and Lizzie that are in fact shippy.
Season 3 looks promising so far. I'd like TPTB to develop everybody and let the sparky stay natural. That's how it started and it doesn't need to be written into too many episodes. Sure I love it when Sheppard is sitting on Lizzie's desk, but that sort of thing is good for an occasional teasing of sparky shippers. We are not blind. We can see the ship even where it was not intended, and I think it's satisfying.. the eye sex and all

[Bama]

Southern, that was a 'GREEN' worthy post if I've ever read one!

we pretty much agree that more character development, continuity and good plots are needed. Where does that leave ship, and more importantly Sparky? Why don't they see the UST?

I think they don't 'see' UST because, as you mentioned they are men and men tend to see even UST differently from women. We see need and emotions as a big part of what builds UST between two people and they probably see UST as only physicality. Those early (horrid) Stick fights with John and Teyla prove that. No good shippin in a show starts out trying to intentionally 'build' UST right off the bat. It's like a good wine that has to ferment in it's juices. UST ages best over time.

TH and JF have both been surprised when fans bring up their on screen connection. It's not written in their scripts, and they don't even admit to adding it. JF right out said there's not tension with Weir, but there is with Teyla. Because that's what he was told. I guess he's waiting for the Wraith war to be over so they can get on with the lovin'. I don't know.

John and Elizabeth plain out FLIRT with each other in these episodes. I don't know how in the world Joe, Torri and tptb can't see that when so many others can-even most in the anti romance crowd seems to see that they do tease and flirt. With that in mind, what in the world do they expect us to think? Tptb allows Elizabeth and John to stare intensely at each other-they allow them to turn to each other *first* and foremost in most every episode. Just what do they think people might begin to suspect? If they didn't want this sort of reaction then they should have seperated John and Elizabeth from each other more to begin with-they could have written each of them more autonomous of each other and or they should have made Dr. Elizabeth Weir into 'Dr. Edward Weir' or cast some dog-boy as John Sheppard and the problem wouldn't be weighing on them.

Spoiler:

Sheyla has been scripted, but Sparky keeps on surprising everybody. If I were a PTB, I'd sit down and watch the shows and actually look for Sparky.

If I were a ptb, and half my audience was female, I'd sit down with my wife or girlfriend or mother or sister and let them watch it and get their opinion on which characters and ships they liked best and then I'd let my brother, friend and dad watch it and get their opinion on what action sequences they liked best.
Because if either group becomes disenchanted, they're done.

They have to go with what they think will work, and whether they do the wrong thing will depend on your focus.

They have to stop trying to please everyone and start trying to put the best storylines and character leans and relationships forward in a strong manner. And if that means doing something a little differently than their original 'vision', then they need to 'bone up' and do it.

They must be wondering why we got so excited by the

Spoiler:

hug and kiss

. Not one single romantic moment between John and Liz has been written. They are clearly, however, considering it. I refer you back to the last spoiler. Why do those things if they are going to keep them just friends? It's a test.

Agree totally. It is a test. Season two has been a complete test to see if this 'thing' that the audience perceives might have some legs to it. Hopefully, they've seen that it does but they need to continue to put strong, flowing plots out there and lay off the weak puppies like

Spoiler:

Tower

Their problem isn't in the characters-it's in the redundancy of some of the storytelling. They need some fresh stuff and I'm hopeful the new human enemy will give them some.

I've lived a long time and seen a lot of romances play out on screen. There are certain telltale signs and Sparky is full of them. But I don't think, at least in S2, the actors have been brought into the loop. The writers may be waiting to see what develops on screen. I think they misjudged the perception of the advocates for John/Teyla because I am convinced that Conversion was meant to be the end of that ship. I said so at the time. But

Spoiler:

if the writers thought a large % of female fans would see romance in that kiss, we've got a real problem. If they think like that we'll never get a real romance.

I keep thinking to myself...what kind of mature female would really see any of what we've seen between Teyla and John as 'hot' in the least. Most mature men probably don't either. It's simply not a logically based, mature enough relationship to satsify anyone that has ever watched or engaged in one themselves. And ITA about the 'signs' being there. They most certainly are! From the total enjoyment of each other's company to the way they let their eyes linger to the playful teasing, to the need to know-these two have all the symptoms of a lifer in the making.

We just have to keep being logical and reasonable, and maybe some lurker will go back and tell them how we think. That we don't want a soap opera for the A plot, a love triangle or constant sex. Keep it PG. We'd love our kids to be able to watch. If the romance isn't too cheesy or sappy, the noromos will come around.

Yes, they will as long as the storylines and sci-fi action doesn't suffer.

You'll probably laugh, but the problem is JF's face. Somewhere it's written in the SciFi writers' handbook that a goodlooking hero must hook up with a hot babe or two. He can't possibly be tied down with one woman. Spread the love, baby. Now speaking as a woman, I'd be more interested if he turned the chicks down. Give him hot and cold running cheerleaders and let him tip his hat (figuratively of course), say "thank you ma'am, but no thank you" and bring his fine butt home to Liz. Women would swoon. Ratings would soar. I sure hope somebody is listening.

LOL! I'm laughing because you're right. And I honestly could put up with a random thang every now and again as his 'lifer' continues to develop but to make the 'storyline' the playthang too often is just zzzzzzz...and I don't think it's just us 'crazy shippers' that think so.

[Melyanna]

Spoiler:

3) The both of them meeting on grounds that doesn't include work, where he can see her for a woman. (at a presidential ball for example...she's in a dress...he's in Dress Blues...ok, I know what i'm talking about in my head...I hope you know what i'm getting at)

I keep writing this kind of scenario, whether in Spygate or in West Wing/Stargate. (Actually, John's spending every blessed day of Revelation in dress blues...) Does that say something about me because I keep writing them at formal events where they have to be all pretty?

And speaking of Revelation, there should be an update tonight, so Sally and La can stop sending out the search parties.