Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Erised]

Do our Canadian friends get to see "Inferno" tonight?

Yeah
And then Allies next monday
And then it will end for 6 months!!
I'm having withdrawal already!

Congrats on 2100 Lexa

[Vicky]

Congrats Lexa and Dorka!!

Yeah, I think it's Inferno tonight in Canada

[k8tbug1]

*doing happy dance* can't wait for all the reports tonight after Inferno. *crosses fingers for sparkys moments*!!!!!!!!!

Many congrats to Dorka and Lexa!!!

/ = Sparks!!!!

[Dorka]

ohhh...yes Inferno... I'm so sad I'll only get to see it on wednesday cuz I'll have to work tomorrow night, when I usally watch it

[La'rosh]

I'm just going to jump here like I did a while ago, although I doubt anyone remembers. I really need to work on follow through... but my mind has been has been in Harry Potter mode all the way back since the movie came out, until I woke up friday morning two weeks ago and thought "New stargate today", and actually squealed and did a happy dance in my bathroom. And I don't squeal very often.

So now I'm just going to use this post to vent my shippy thoughts. I was discussing this week's episode with my friend (she's admitted that she'd rather see sheppard and weir than any other pairing, but she's just not much of a shipper in general) and how I thought that him sitting on her desk at the end was nice, and, since I seem to notice little details that can't really be shippy but just make me smile, the fact the camera went from her messing with whatever that thing on a chain was (a pocket watch? well something) to the jar that he gave her to him walking in. Seeing as she doesn't really listen to me, here's my current opinion:

Obvious UST that anyone would notice is not the only thing that makes a ship. At least not a good ship. Maybe they don't realize it, but the ground's are still there. Sometimes people don't really think of friendship in this way, but if they didn't care about each other, they wouldn't be friends. They'd work together, and they wouldn't be enemies, but they wouldn't really be friends. So maybe this ship isn't remotely shippy in that sense yet, but it has the potential, not because of any really romantic qualities, but because of caring and trust.

Now that I reread that, it's probably more directed towards people who aren't as confident as me, but I think it still applys. I'm still the one who notices every little look or smile, and of course the hug that is still replaying in my head (must be that rewind button i kept pushing... ). I didn't even bother actually looking for pictures, but took out my digital camera and took a picture of the tv and didn't care how low-res it was. Not that I think about it I kindof scare myself.

I think I'm done now. This is what happens when I get started on a subject. I just keep thinking of new points and ideas, and it's hard for me not to talk. I have cut down a bit, but I still do it. So I'm going to stop now, since I really should be doing something else besides writing post.

[Melyanna]

Obvious UST that anyone would notice is not the only thing that makes a ship. At least not a good ship. Maybe they don't realize it, but the ground's are still there. Sometimes people don't really think of friendship in this way, but if they didn't care about each other, they wouldn't be friends. They'd work together, and they wouldn't be enemies, but they wouldn't really be friends. So maybe this ship isn't remotely shippy in that sense yet, but it has the potential, not because of any really romantic qualities, but because of caring and trust.

Lovely way of putting it. Reminds me a lot of a saying I've heard many a time – happiness is being married to your best friend. You've got to have the intimacy of trust and companionship for a relationship to work. We've got that here in spades. They confide in each other. They comfort each other. They know each other so well now that they really can communicate with glances.

Beauty is fleeting, after all, and as FP has said many times, whatever the sexual attraction was based on will one day be gone. If love isn't rooted in friendship, then there's nothing left.

[Southern Red]

So now I'm just going to use this post to vent my shippy thoughts. I was discussing this week's episode with my friend (she's admitted that she'd rather see sheppard and weir than any other pairing, but she's just not much of a shipper in general) and how I thought that him sitting on her desk at the end was nice, and, since I seem to notice little details that can't really be shippy but just make me smile, the fact the camera went from her messing with whatever that thing on a chain was (a pocket watch? well something) to the jar that he gave her to him walking in. Seeing as she doesn't really listen to me, here's my current opinion:

Obvious UST that anyone would notice is not the only thing that makes a ship. At least not a good ship. Maybe they don't realize it, but the ground's are still there. Sometimes people don't really think of friendship in this way, but if they didn't care about each other, they wouldn't be friends. They'd work together, and they wouldn't be enemies, but they wouldn't really be friends. So maybe this ship isn't remotely shippy in that sense yet, but it has the potential, not because of any really romantic qualities, but because of caring and trust.

Hi, La'rosh and welcome back. Sometimes it seems that people who don't post very often come up with the most profound observations. I totally agree with your idea that S/W are forming a deep long lasting friendship that goes beyond the workplace. We see that week after week when he seeks her out to put some sort of conclusion on whatever traumatic event has happened to them recently. Whether to reassure her that she's done the right thing or to discuss how they might have acted differently. Being female I think Elizabeth naturally shows her emotions more. But if you watch closely you see her being reassuring to almost everybody. In Critical Mass

Spoiler:

she gave Cadman a little pat on the back at one point. And I've seen her do the same thing with Rodney, Carson and others. No shippiness in any of that, but it shows that she cares deeply about her people.

However, I've never seen her pat John hee or touch him at all in a casual way. It looked like all her pent up emotion in regards to him came out in that

Spoiler:

hug

. On several occasions we've seen him reach out and almost touch her which he seems comfortable doing. We must remember that all this is being written by a group of men who have a certain idea of where they plan to take ship in SGA. The fact that what they are writing is not showing up on the screen in quite the way they intend it may not have gotten through to them, and even if it has they still may continue to force certain things on us that don't work. We can only hope that they have thoroughly perused all the forums and see that the majority of posters whether they want it to happen or not are seeing a deep connection between John and Eliz. However, we have to prepare ourselves for them to ignore the fans and press on with the painfully contrived Sheyla stuff.

I've been thinking about this a lot and have reached the conclusion that TPTB, which in this case also includes the writers and some actors are seeing what they want to see, not what's actually there. This is a frequent occurence when you try to edit your own writing. It's almost impossible to see what's actually on the page rather than what you intended to write. Examples. The painful stick fighting/UST scenes that are so obviously staged and absent of UST. The horrendous cave scene. All of Home. And in S2 I would add

Spoiler:

that silly scene in Runner when J/T were tied up and she got grabby. I honestly believe they intended that to be UST.Now, some of you just have to stop ROTFL Ditto for the scene in The Lost Boys when his head was in her lap. Again the male version of UST. Can't you hear them saying "oh yeah, we're shipping J/T so we gotta do something. Oh, I know, let's put his head in her lap. Yeah that's hot! We won't even talk about whatever that was in Conversion, but at the end when he apologized I think again they intended it to show UST. Same for the end of Epiphany when they framed them in the same shot.

There are others to come but you get the idea. I think they are ignoring the obvious to stick with the painfully unobvious. Now, since they work months ahead maybe adjustments will be made in S3.

[astronomicalchick]

Shep: I've never seen Ronon so fierce. Mallozzi was a tough cookie though. He just wouldn't talk. It got really ugly in there.

Liz: I don't care what happened! Please tell me you DID get the recipe for the secret chocolate, amaretto, blueberry, peanut butter swirl ice cream!

OOOh can I nick that for my sig?

[EnfantTV]

Hi... I come back after a absence moment. I had many work. I wrote a french's fic with DarkLady, SGA and Ship... and I prepare a dance show (theme : Erik Satie) so i don't have many time... but I'am always a big shipper

I don't understand every last posts *blushes* I can't wait to see the next zod and the last zod of the season 2... Do you think that it will as Siege part 2 ? TO BE CONTINUED ????

Melyanna, i love your sign

[FoolishPleasure]

OOOh can I nick that for my sig?

Hey - all pics are public domain! *LOL*

I've been thinking about this a lot and have reached the conclusion that TPTB, which in this case also includes the writers and some actors are seeing what they want to see, not what's actually there. This is a frequent occurence when you try to edit your own writing. It's almost impossible to see what's actually on the page rather than what you intended to write.

I don't think TPTB can "see the forest through the trees". They spend so much time working on these episodes that they actually lose perspective and have no idea how the "common folk" see the final product. In fact, some have admitted they don't even watch the final shows on TV.

Hopefully getting fan feedback through letters and various websites have pointed them in the right direction for season 3.

[Southern Red]

I don't think TPTB can "see the forest through the trees". They spend so much time working on these episodes that they actually lose perspective and have no idea how the "common folk" see the final product. In fact, some have admitted they don't even watch the final shows on TV.

Hopefully getting fan feedback through letters and various websites have pointed them in the right direction for season 3.

Didn't Rob Cooper come right out and say they don't pay attention to fans? So, let them go ahead and do their own thing and then wonder why the show only lasts 3 seasons. Not that I think it will get cancelled if S/W doesn't happen. Clearly it won't be because of that but something so simple just seems easy to fix. I love UST when it actually exists. They are pandering to the non thinkers of all ages. Makes me want to teach a course in critical observation. Not only UST, but sarcasm, satire, literary analogies, etc just go over the heads of so many. Don't they teach how to recognize these anymore? Boy am I showing my age today. Not to mention my vastly superior knowledge, education and critical thinking skills. See that last part right there was sarcasm.

[Jenova Synthesis]

I don't think TPTB can "see the forest through the trees". They spend so much time working on these episodes that they actually lose perspective and have no idea how the "common folk" see the final product. In fact, some have admitted they don't even watch the final shows on TV.

Hopefully getting fan feedback through letters and various websites have pointed them in the right direction for season 3.

I'm sure tptb will try to go into the direction most of the fans want them to one day. If they weren't interested in their fans they wouldn't lurk here from time to time. How else would they get feedback? The number of viewers or the amount of DVDs, books or CDs sold doesn't say sth about what fans liked best in one episide about what character.

[Melyanna]

I don't think TPTB can "see the forest through the trees". They spend so much time working on these episodes that they actually lose perspective and have no idea how the "common folk" see the final product. In fact, some have admitted they don't even watch the final shows on TV.

A lot of it also lies in how an episode is edited. For all we know, Siege III was supposed to have a big smoochy scene with Sheppard and Teyla that got cut for time constraints. Now, I have serious doubts that such a thing is the case, but a lot of what made Siege III such a terrific Shep/Weir episode was the editing. Shots would linger on John and Elizabeth's reactions to things like the other still being alive, even when others were talking and the conversation had moved on to business. And even though the ending was badly rushed, they still took the time to show very personal moments between John and Elizabeth throughout the episode.

I definitely think the problem with Shep/Teyla last season was forest v. trees issues. The first eleven episodes were produced without feedback from a large audience, and since everyone working on the project was close to the project, it was much, much harder for them to gauge what was working and what wasn't. Though I still remember Brad Wright's comment before the show started, renouncing the idea of Shep/Teyla on the show. I think that, by that point, they had seen that Shep/Teyla really wasn't working. Because they had tried it, they still had to address it later, which explains Conversion, but by the time they got to Home, I think they were playing with the other romantic possibility for Sheppard. That episode is very much a turning point in my opinion. We see Sheppard and Weir connecting on a personal level, something which they'd tried with Sheppard and Teyla but not gotten far with, and then throughout the fantasy world, when John was alone with Teyla and knew something was wrong, he kept bringing up Elizabeth and her safety. That was the first sign to me that they were changing directions. And then... along came Kolya.

[Melyanna]

Didn't Rob Cooper come right out and say they don't pay attention to fans?

It's unprofessional for them to try to follow every whim of the fans. As writers, they do need to do what they want to write, but it'd be foolish of them to do something that the vast majority of the fans don't want them to do. I think this is what happened to the Carter-goes-to-Atlantis-part-time idea. The reaction was so bad and so widespread that doing it anyway would have been just plain dumb.

But Rob Cooper was also the one who said that they backed off the idea of Sheppard and Weir as antagonists in part because of the audience reaction. There was the problem that it just didn't work the way they wanted it to – doubtless because of the unexpected chemistry that Sheppard and Weir have – but also because the audience didn't respond well to it. The audience was much happier with Sheppard and Weir as allies, so they went with that instead.

[Erised]

It's unprofessional for them to try to follow every whim of the fans. As writers, they do need to do what they want to write, but it'd be foolish of them to do something that the vast majority of the fans don't want them to do. I think this is what happened to the Carter-goes-to-Atlantis-part-time idea. The reaction was so bad and so widespread that doing it anyway would have been just plain dumb.

Spoiler:

I don't know, making Carter almost kiss Martouf seemed pretty dumb to me. IMO, majority want either no ship or Sam/Jack. And they gave us Martouf/Sam and Cameron/Sam. Poor shippers. I heard they were crying. *sick* Sure, it might have been for a joke because the ep was funny IMO, but comeon. If I saw either Lizzie or John kiss someone else when they are THEMSELVES, I'd cry too.

Hopefully, it will never happen.

But Rob Cooper was also the one who said that they backed off the idea of Sheppard and Weir as antagonists in part because of the audience reaction. There was the problem that it just didn't work the way they wanted it to – doubtless because of the unexpected chemistry that Sheppard and Weir have – but also because the audience didn't respond well to it. The audience was much happier with Sheppard and Weir as allies, so they went with that instead.

*imagines John in place of Caldwell* *dies*
Yes thank god they are allies!!