Wraith Defenders Club

[MCH]

This also raises the question - remember when Todd told Sheppard that he was 'stronger than any human he had ever fed upon'?? In light of what we learned in Infection, could that strength be due to the fact that an Iratus bug once fed on John?

I should ask Mallozzi that...

das

I would ask Mallozzi see what he says.

I was wondered about this about Shepherd strength.

Shepherd was fed on in 38 minutes by an Iratus bug, I always wondered if the bug injects the victim like a Wraith an enzyme to strengthen the victim during the feeding.

In Conversion Beckett used an enzyme from the Iratus bug to reverse Shepherd conversion into an bug after been attacked by Ellie.

Shepherd could still have had this enzyme in his blood when he was fed upon by Todd and I presume he injected an enzyme into Shepherd .

Now Todd

Spoiler:

wants to go the a planet so an Queen Iratus bug can feed on him to cue him of the infection

Hum..... MCH

[Wraith Cake]

Problem is any wraith who was a forward thinker and proposed finding a new method of feeding would come underfire from the others.

This isn't any different from human history. Think of Galileo or Martin Luther King Jr. or anyone else in history who has spoken the truth and has been persecuted politically for it. They still felt the responsibility that belong to all of us and thankfully they were willing to take responsibility --we have all benefited. Perhaps Todd is like this. They still took it upon themselves to stand up and say "no" the solar system does not revolve around the earth, and "no" racial segregation is not acceptable etc.

such a radical idea (proposed before the expedition showed up) would never be entertained by the masses and the one who put it forward would be viewed as weak and a traitor. Most would not see it as worth risking their life.

Thus, like say in the instance of genocide, which does not happen in a vacuum. Do you know what I'm trying to say? There must be a climate of intolerance to exist first within a particular society prior to a genocide. Because a phenomenon (genocide) that aggressive and that thought out does not happen in a vacuum. So yes, individual wraith probably were weeded out and killed. Perhaps the wraith doctor talked about in season one was an example of an "individual" thinker--a rogue element. In other words, it does mean that society was responsible and every other society that knew and did nothing. Also it does mean that there are some "key players" within that particular society more responsible than others, in our example the wraith queens should be held the most responsible.

Also since most wraith like to be led it doesn't leave much room for such forward thinking. The queens would be unwilling to do anything that would endanger their position and power.

Most humans like to be lead, and there are not too many of us that are forward thinking. Thus the "leaders" of a genocide carry the most responsibity. Think: Pol Pot (The Killing Fields), The Interahamwe (Rwanda), Radislav Krsti? (Bosnian Genocide), Hitler (Holocaust), to name a few in modern history.

Humanity and wraith are essentially identical in this respect.
Obviously there are some key perpetrators, but it does not mean that we do not all bear some responsibility to affect change for good. Perhaps this is why the world is in the "global warming" state that it is. We all think it's someone else's responsibility to affect change, we forget that we individually can make a difference. And it's just an excuse for apathy. (Global warming is a discussion for another time).

So, are individual wraith as responsible as their leaders? I would say no, but I am guarded when I say no. Do individual wraith still bear some responsibility? Yes.

Are we individually responsible for being environmentally responsible--yes. Are we as guilty and say a business owner who pollutes large scale--no.


WK

[Wraith Cake]

a very warm and wraithy welcom, Todd's Pet



why are we humans not trying to change our bodies and digestive system to be able to gain nutrition from cellulose...would save the world's food problem if we could just munch away on wood and grass, wouldn't it?

Isn't that what we're doing right now? Isn't the US the leading innovator of genetically modified food, or is it genetically modified "approved" food?


WK

[Wraith Cake]

You wish to say if I send them a draft with signed off co. rights they would use it?
Why I didn't know about this earlier? I would do so.

No silly. You're still thinking in terms of "integrity".



WK

[Wraith Cake]

Have they?
Anyway, is there anyone here who got some idea on what actually the Wraith feed? What is considered to be a life force? Are we talking about the some Luke Skywalker thingy or something biological?

It would be a common sense corollary. In terms of "life force"--it's a little hokey I know. It's a Luke Skywalker thingy

It's not so clear cut. They are species which develops slowly. Exchange of the generations is almost non-existent. Hence inflow of the fresh ideas is very, very slow. I would say that being dependent on only ONE food source is stupid and given time the Wraith would developed the new sources too.

Again "science" or "science fiction". They've been around as long as the ancients were exploring. In I think Rising Part I (?) it was indicated that the wraith existed several million years ago. So, I think that would be long enough to whip up a "vegan" version of that chocolate chip cookie recipe.

We do not know much about them. Just some tit-bits given to emphasize the image of the ultimate bad guys.
One always have to consider the cultural inertia. There are countless examples where our human societies went trough the drain only because they did not wish to accept need for change.

I think this may be what the wraith are faced with now=adaptation or extinction/annihilation

However, individuals which wished to change left that society and get their independency. Why should not we assume something like that happened within the Wraith civilization?

OOoooo what a wonderful spin off story. Mmmm. Some wraithy planet out there that fell in love with their human worshippers and decided to settle down with them. Oooo what a fabulous idea. Why not eh? Of course, they hid themselves away from the other wraith.

Even if there is not time enough for them to overcome the cultural inertia there has to be more than one Todd between them.

Completely agree. Well, we do have at least one account of a wraith doctor who was a rogue element. Although he was experimenting on humans (and not for their benefit), the idea was he was not pleasing his peers.

I have problem with this. Why this responsibility? What then prevent us into forcing the "model solution" we think it's correct upon them?

This is perhaps why we have a court system and "due process" and a judicial imperative. So that these "difficult" decisions are not snap decisions, but still essentially need to be discussed, if you follow my logic. An opposing view to this would be a country's "non interference" international foreign policy. The problem with this, is Darfur and Rwanda. Not being our brothers keeper, also means not lending a helping hand.

What if the solution for the problem is something we, humans, cannot even see?

Sure. You are right, but this does not mean we do nothing, while we're trying to find that solution we have not thought of yet. Do you know what I mean?

And not to mention how bad is for the growth of the anyone to push onto them ready made solutions.

Well, obviously you do not want to "push", you merely want to make the option available, if say you are able to make that option available. Therefore you can say you've done everything possible to make sure there is no guilt on your hands.

It's equal to doing your child homework for him/her and then expect that same child to end up with Ph.D. one day. No way that will happen.

Obviously this is a hyperbole--and please do not seem to assume I would offer this as a viable argument. I think I have have been a little more persuasive than that.


I'm going to have to get back to you on these other issues, my husband is urging me to get off the forum and head to bed.

I agree with the fact that resistance for change jeopardizes they own species. That's why I would call that stupid. But I would not call that evil.

All I can say to this for now, is that I do not think you are thoroughly considering this through. There is a difference between evil acts (acts of commission, acts of omission) and being inherently evil. I do not believe this is merely semantics.

Sorry I have to run. But I will pick up this argument.

Byeeee!

WK

[MyFavoriteWraith]

I finally figure out *what* really annoyed me about that scene in Infection and why it bothers me so much that it's getting glowing reviews.

Spoiler:

It's not the logic faults in Keller's reasoning that bothers me. Because it didn't support what the idea that were going for, and in fact, undermined it.

It's the idea that we're suppose to come away from that scene thinking Keller feels compassion for Todd's plight and for the Wraith in general. That's why she brought up that Todd didn't understand compassion. That idea would have been fine by itself. Except that there's continuity to consider. So there's something nasty that comes with that idea. And it's THAT which bothers me. Because it's that mentality towards Michael all over again.

First off, I don't think Keller was feeling compassionate. She was feeling guilty and feeling inadequate. She even had a scene about it with McKay earlier.

BUT. That's not the insidiousness of the scene that's trying to sneak by us.

Refreshing my point; I think the intentions that the writers had for the scene was to show that Keller feels compassion for Todd, his crew, and likely the Wraith in general. So we're also suppose to be thinking that McKay also feels compassion for Todd and his crew in a later scene.

Here's what's bothering me: The only reason they were feeling compassionate is because Todd and his crew can't feed on humans anymore. McKay said it himself, the Wraiths aren't Wraith anymore because they can't feed. Not simply because Todd and his crew were suffering.

Remember in First Contact, McKay was the one who was perfectly ok in turning on the Attero device. And in The Kindred, Keller was the one who didn't want to trade the Hoff's research to Todd.

Keller and McKay's attitudes towards Wraith haven't changed AT ALL. This is the same mentality that justified their treatment of Michael. It's why Beckett was concerned about Michael's welfare when he was a human, but not as a Wraith. Until Wraiths were "acceptable," Keller and McKay were not feeling compassionate towards them. So I don't think we should be praising Keller (or McKay) for feeling compassion towards Todd. Because that compassion is conditional and doesn't accepts Wraiths for what they are. More importantly, it doesn't accept Todd for who he is and what he is. In Infection, Keller's compassion is conditional, and given the circumstances, it's a mask for condescending righteousness. Her compassion is meant more to gratify herself than any real consideration towards Todd.

You know what would be unfortunate? If Wraiths decided to eat human flesh.

I really feel two things here. Either the writers are trying to pull one over us and truly have no problems with the experimentation that lead to Michael. And if we think this is ok, then it feels like validating the righteous justification that created Michael. Or that they still have no clue what was so wrong with the reasons that fueled the Michael experimentation.



Chris was in Blade III? Can you tell me where? I didn't notice him.

Oh lord, I haven't seen it for awhile....trying to remember. Well, I'm pretty sure it was on the "McBarge" the Nightstalkers were stationed on. I think he was a guy that brought them some kind of tech. Arrrrgh, why can't I remember. Oh yeah, stuffy head. Sorry. Anyway, he's wearing an offwhite fisherman's knit sweater, has a full beard and medium length hair in it...and a Norwegian accent. He doesn't have that many line but he was memorable.

mfw

[Laura Dove]

I finally figure out *what* really annoyed me about that scene in Infection and why it bothers me so much that it's getting glowing reviews.

Spoiler:

Remember in First Contact, McKay was the one who was perfectly ok in turning on the Attero device. And in The Kindred, Keller was the one who didn't want to trade the Hoff's research to Todd.

Good catch. I had forgotten Keller's attitude in "The Kindred".

Spoiler:

I'm not sure I agree with you when you say Keller was supposed to seem compassionate, so McKay was supposed too. I always saw McKay as very morally insecure, as if he has no ethics on his own and must always check them with what other people think. Also he has the most... consistently inconsistent attitude towards the wraith: I believe he totally can't kill a non-threatening wraith in cold blood, but at the same time, he wouldn't hesitate before wiping them out if it happens far away from his eyes. It's the difference between killing a person with your hands and pushing a button that leads to the death of millions people: Pushing the button is much easier because you don't witness the deaths. So, I wasn't surprised by McKay.

As for Keller, well... I like her much more now in season 5. In "First Contact", she seemed genuinely compassionate when Todd explained why he was afraid to change. She seemed to understand his doubts, and at that time, he was still a full wraith. Maybe her attitude simply evolved with time? Or when she met him in "The Queen", he was the first wraith she met face to face, and it changed her views on them?

[dasNdanger]

Chris was in Blade III? Can you tell me where? I didn't notice him.

Yeah - it's towards the end of the movie, after the others have been killed. He brings them some tech for the final assault - and he's all fuzzy, like Halling. Adorable, too!


das

[Sevenofnine]

Sorry, I don't want to imply that the wraith are evil. I certainly do not think this. I do not believe that any people or species of people can possibly be inherently evil--creation is a good thing--ALWAYS!

I do believe however that cultures can have dominant evil tendencies. Tendencies that are very destructive and cause wide spread devastation...um...this sounds like our own!!

But I do see them as equal to humans in worth, not greater than and not less than, but equal. The wraith think humans are less, and the Lantians think the wraith are less. As a result they both refuse to change and continue to visit horrors on each other. In other words, the actions not the people(s) are evil.



WK

I agree with you WK - I believe there is always good in every person & sometimes culture and events & needs colour their perceptions and they then choose to be good or evil. But to inherently evil one must be like this to the core - and I think that goes right through eveything they do - so it would be reflected in how they treat each other as well - like we have seen with the Queens - they would not hesitate to feed on one of their own if it suits their purposes. Anyway I believe there are good wraith and bad wraith, just as there are good humans and bad humans, its a matter of choice as well as accepting each other as equals. This is where the Lanteans consider the wraith less, & visa versa - but I think Todd is different, he seems to have grown - reminds of the show with the Nox - the young have much to learn - and the Nox were not as old as the Wraith - but the wraith had only their advanced culture to contend with for 9000 + years before the Earthers arrived. So they did not have to view the humans as equals. But then we really don't know as we have only had glimpses into wraith culture and individuals and it really isn't a big cross section to get any idea. I think I might be rambling here, but I hope I have got my point over some how.

Todd is definitely unique in his outlook!

Seven

[Sevenofnine]

I rewatched infection again - did anyone notice that the drones were all bald - no hair - so are we to assume that when they take their masks off their hair comes off as well!

Can't find a pic at present - hubby wants his cuppa tea (been sick today!)

Seven

[dolfynnchick]

I'm trying to put together my thoughts on infection as best I can, but I'm not very articulate in long-winded discussions. Still, I feel I need to add my two cents worth to the debate. I'm sorry this tends to jump around, I've never been good at expressing thought-out ideas in writing

I think what has happened to wraith and the arrival of the Atlantis expedition can be likened best to the Aztecs and the arrival of the Spanish Conquistadors. Here you have a culture of warriors who unexpectedly meet up with a very small force of technologically advanced foreigners. For the Lanteans (as with the Conquistadors), its culture shock to an extreme: a group of aliens whose beliefs, ethics, mores and even diet are totally different from the norm. For the wraith (Aztecs) comes something totally unexpected way out of left field: humans, whom they had believed barely above cattle, that can ably fight back. As with the Conquistadors, the Lanteans decide that they are morally superior to the wraith and begin a campaign of all-out genocide against a perceived enemy. They shoot to kill at every available opportunity, they send in their small-pox blankets (the Hoffan drug, and to a lesser extent, Beckett's gene "therapy"), they capture and torture and ultimately destroy (Bob, Steve, and especially Michael).

And then along comes Todd. While Todd is first and foremost concerned about the survival of himself and his species (as would anyone in his situation), he is making efforts to try and find ways to coexist with the humans in ways that no other wraith and only two humans (Beckett and Keller) have ever even thought of, or tried to think of. And what does Sheppard do? Throws it in his face. Todd is trying his absolute damndest (can I say that?) to find a solution, and Sheppard just does not give a s**t.

None of the Lanteans are stepping aside and trying to see this objectively, because if they did they'd find that a)the wraith are completely incapable of subsisting for any length of time on anything but humans b)they've never changed because they've never needed to, humans have always been plentiful enough and when they aren't, hibernation is perfectly logical; the system works and they don't see the need to fix what isn't broken and c) now they have a wraith ally with considerable political pull who is willing to work with them if only they'd listen to his thoughts and ideas every now and then instead of bull-headedly doing things their way all the time (relationships, not just romantic ones, only work when there is equal communication between equals!!!). And maybe, just maybe, if they tried looking at it without bias, they'd find that like Conquistadors, they are only doing what they think is right. It may look like it's for the greater good from the point of view of the Lanteans and the Pegasus humans, but we are talking about the wholesale slaughter of a sentient species. Just because they are different does not mean they are evil.

Wraith may seem numerous now, like pigeons. You can look up and see hundreds of them at a time, like pigeons. You can see them as pests, and kill them at every opportunity, like pigeons. And if this is how you view them, with no thoughts as to the conservation of the species, what do you end up with? Passenger pigeons.

As an aside: The situation between Atlantis and the wraith can also be compared to the book series Ender's Game wherein humans engage in genocide, more aptly referred to as xenocide, against a hive-minded species who are so completely alien that it blocks any chance of communication between the two. I can't really go any more into it with out ruining the book.

[Todd's Pet]

Isn't that what we're doing right now? Isn't the US the leading innovator of genetically modified food, or is it genetically modified "approved" food?


WK

My apologies, Wraith Cake, didn't see your warm, Wraithy welcome amongst all that deep philosophising!
Thanks for the welcome. I've only been on the forum a couple of days and already I feel all warm and Wraithy!

[Heqet]

As an aside: The situation between Atlantis and the wraith can also be compared to the book series Ender's Game wherein humans engage in genocide, more aptly referred to as xenocide, against a hive-minded species who are so completely alien that it blocks any chance of communication between the two. I can't really go any more into it with out ruining the book.

That is exactly what I though of when I read that book! It almost made me cry, thinking about the treatment of both species at the same time. I loved the Buggers as soon as I realized how similar to Wraith they were.

[ciannwn]

indeed they are, but from the standing point of human, I rather they die even if they no longer need to feed on human. especially since they still eat organic food and likely that they will not grow food on their own, they have far more advance weaponry and militarized society than others, it is much easier for them to rob instead of wasting their powerful hives. they are both physically and technologically advance than most human civilization in the galaxy, it will be a risk having them around anyway.

I answered that in another topic but I'll repost it here.

There are umpteen uninhabited planets which are suitable for humans to live on. Why would the Wraith need to rob Pegasus galaxy inhabitants for food when there will be enough to eat available on these planets for a hunter/gatherer lifestyle? After all, as they have hives and darts they wouldn't be limited to those bits of the planets around Stargates. They are also a technologically advanced race. Give them a year and they're likely to have invented hydroponics and a way of cloning meat so there's fresh food available on their hives.

Get rid of the Wraith and, in a few years time, there's likely to be Genii forcing farmers to grow food for them while the Bola Kai would continue raiding weak settlements and, if the hints in 'Missing' are to be believed, eating their victims.

As for you wanting Wraith to die, you're in the wrong topic for those sentiments. We're all Wraith supporters in here.

[Starry Waters]

I rewatched infection again - did anyone notice that the drones were all bald - no hair - so are we to assume that when they take their masks off their hair comes off as well!

Can't find a pic at present - hubby wants his cuppa tea (been sick today!)

Seven

This wasn't the first time the drones have shown up bald. In Spoils of War one was born bald, and when they became "human" from Carson's retrovirus in Misbegotton, they were bald too. For once the show is being consistent. LOL

Actually I've never been quite sure why they make them bald though. My guess in Misbegotten was because they didn't have enough white wigs and in Infection because they just look creepier without them. ??? (I would have thought that they were bald in Misbegotten (season 3) because they were born bald, if Spoils of War (season 4) had been produced first. Maybe when they didn't have enough white wigs in Misbegotten is when they decided the drones were born bald.?? Who knows?)