Wraith Defenders Club

[JadedWraith]

I'm hoping he means the Wraith fan faction so it's about Todd. On the other hand, what kind of frenzy does he aim for us to be in if it is Todd.

In Joe's mind, the Wraith defenders are prone to frenzy. *Shrugs*
I fear some character diluting or perversion in order to " try to keep it interesting" . I hope Todd has a more honorable fate

Spoiler:

than Michael

. He deserves it. If they want to give him some kind of closure, please do not diminish him and try to make him a one dimensional villain. Been there, done that.
That would get me in a frenzy...of yawning.

[Craig the Wraith]

I nfection does concern me abit

Spoiler:

Even when the wraith who had took the gene therapy were not considered worth saving, by shepard but needed to be killed still. i thought that was bad- these wraith were still considered less than people- had it been humans would we seen a different attitude, would Gabriel' s/Todd's been worth saving by SGA team's standards...I do not want see wraith altered by this stupid genetherapy- it kinda hurt to see Gabriel/todd hold his hand up like that- it was like seeing perfection mutilated, like a ballet dancer crippled, an artist made blind or the hands of a musician cut off

I agree with Laura dove you said everything i wanted to say- this episode made feel sick to see Gabriel/Todd like that. i hope he gets back to how he was. lets hope vegas and EATG set everything back to perfection

[leksa]

It would be a common sense corollary. In terms of "life force"--it's a little hokey I know. It's a Luke Skywalker thingy

Nice. Then let us send a Dumbledore to help the Wraith.

Again "science" or "science fiction". They've been around as long as the ancients were exploring. In I think Rising Part I (?) it was indicated that the wraith existed several million years ago. So, I think that would be long enough to whip up a "vegan" version of that chocolate chip cookie recipe.

That is the new information. According to the series, Ancients came to Pegasus after the plague in Milky Way, and Pegasus was empty. That did not happened several million years ago, but several tenths thousand years ago.
At least that's what's said in shows. Remember that scene where one member of the team responds to the Ancients who took over the Atlantis that they are the ones guilty for the creation of the Wraith.

It's the first time I hear the evolution part. But if you said that the Wraith evolved, then how come that they evolved in the way so that humans are their only food source when humans did not exist in the Pegasus galaxy?

This is perhaps why we have a court system and "due process" and a judicial imperative. So that these "difficult" decisions are not snap decisions, but still essentially need to be discussed, if you follow my logic. An opposing view to this would be a country's "non interference" international foreign policy. The problem with this, is Darfur and Rwanda. Not being our brothers keeper, also means not lending a helping hand.
Sure. You are right, but this does not mean we do nothing, while we're trying to find that solution we have not thought of yet. Do you know what I mean?
Well, obviously you do not want to "push", you merely want to make the option available, if say you are able to make that option available. Therefore you can say you've done everything possible to make sure there is no guilt on your hands.
Obviously this is a hyperbole--and please do not seem to assume I would offer this as a viable argument. I think I have have been a little more persuasive than that.

No you simply have different view on this. I'm biased. I'm originating from small country which is usually forced to accept outside rules because it's small, weak and economically poor. That creates certain resistance and bad feeling. As the example, let me tell you this: Couple years ago, government of one of the small neighboring countries, (in the same situation as mine) made the law, with the acceptance of majority of their population, which forbid import of genetically modified food. Less than month after that they had to cancel that same law because US government told them if they do not, they'll stop giving them financial loans. So they did what USA asked them to do, but also said why they did it. There was public outrage, and demonstrations but nothing changed. Money won.
So you see why I'm biased. In theory that's lovely thought. But in practice is often misused for financial gain.

All I can say to this for now, is that I do not think you are thoroughly considering this through. There is a difference between evil acts (acts of commission, acts of omission) and being inherently evil. I do not believe this is merely semantics.

Sorry I have to run. But I will pick up this argument.

Byeeee!

WK

I think that the problem is again in what I consider to be evil and what you consider to be evil.
For me evil is heavy word. The ultimate one. I would consider something evil only if it is sentient and purposely and without any decent justification, chooses action that gives extremely long-term negative results and at the same time ignores existing solution which can lead to long-term positive results. The being aware of the existing "positive" solution is crucial for me declaring something evil. And on top of that, I would need to consider all informations before declaring someone evil or some action an evil one.
This view is partially because I am an scientist. And pure scientific view on the universe is terrible one. We as the species cannot handle it. Simply because it goes against our very nature. I am aware of that view but nevertheless nurture the duality in my mind just so that I can have a reason to continue living.

[leksa]

I'm trying to put together my thoughts on infection as best I can, but I'm not very articulate in long-winded discussions. Still, I feel I need to add my two cents worth to the debate. I'm sorry this tends to jump around, I've never been good at expressing thought-out ideas in writing

I think what has happened to wraith and the arrival of the Atlantis expedition can be likened best to the Aztecs and the arrival of the Spanish Conquistadors. Here you have a culture of warriors who unexpectedly meet up with a very small force of technologically advanced foreigners. For the Lanteans (as with the Conquistadors), its culture shock to an extreme: a group of aliens whose beliefs, ethics, mores and even diet are totally different from the norm. For the wraith (Aztecs) comes something totally unexpected way out of left field: humans, whom they had believed barely above cattle, that can ably fight back. As with the Conquistadors, the Lanteans decide that they are morally superior to the wraith and begin a campaign of all-out genocide against a perceived enemy. They shoot to kill at every available opportunity, they send in their small-pox blankets (the Hoffan drug, and to a lesser extent, Beckett's gene "therapy"), they capture and torture and ultimately destroy (Bob, Steve, and especially Michael).

And then along comes Todd. While Todd is first and foremost concerned about the survival of himself and his species (as would anyone in his situation), he is making efforts to try and find ways to coexist with the humans in ways that no other wraith and only two humans (Beckett and Keller) have ever even thought of, or tried to think of. And what does Sheppard do? Throws it in his face. Todd is trying his absolute damndest (can I say that?) to find a solution, and Sheppard just does not give a s**t.

None of the Lanteans are stepping aside and trying to see this objectively, because if they did they'd find that a)the wraith are completely incapable of subsisting for any length of time on anything but humans b)they've never changed because they've never needed to, humans have always been plentiful enough and when they aren't, hibernation is perfectly logical; the system works and they don't see the need to fix what isn't broken and c) now they have a wraith ally with considerable political pull who is willing to work with them if only they'd listen to his thoughts and ideas every now and then instead of bull-headedly doing things their way all the time (relationships, not just romantic ones, only work when there is equal communication between equals!!!). And maybe, just maybe, if they tried looking at it without bias, they'd find that like Conquistadors, they are only doing what they think is right. It may look like it's for the greater good from the point of view of the Lanteans and the Pegasus humans, but we are talking about the wholesale slaughter of a sentient species. Just because they are different does not mean they are evil.

Wraith may seem numerous now, like pigeons. You can look up and see hundreds of them at a time, like pigeons. You can see them as pests, and kill them at every opportunity, like pigeons. And if this is how you view them, with no thoughts as to the conservation of the species, what do you end up with? Passenger pigeons.

As an aside: The situation between Atlantis and the wraith can also be compared to the book series Ender's Game wherein humans engage in genocide, more aptly referred to as xenocide, against a hive-minded species who are so completely alien that it blocks any chance of communication between the two. I can't really go any more into it with out ruining the book.

Nice explanation. Thanks.
I really like it.

[Craig the Wraith]

Wraith can fed on the life of others than human the defiant one wraith said he had fed on ancients- there were ancients before humans in the Pegasus Galaxy!

[leksa]

I answered that in another topic but I'll repost it here.

There are umpteen uninhabited planets which are suitable for humans to live on. Why would the Wraith need to rob Pegasus galaxy inhabitants for food when there will be enough to eat available on these planets for a hunter/gatherer lifestyle? After all, as they have hives and darts they wouldn't be limited to those bits of the planets around Stargates. They are also a technologically advanced race. Give them a year and they're likely to have invented hydroponics and a way of cloning meat so there's fresh food available on their hives.

Get rid of the Wraith and, in a few years time, there's likely to be Genii forcing farmers to grow food for them while the Bola Kai would continue raiding weak settlements and, if the hints in 'Missing' are to be believed, eating their victims.

As for you wanting Wraith to die, you're in the wrong topic for those sentiments. We're all Wraith supporters in here.

Excellent explanation. I agree with you.
However, we probably will not see Genii turning "evil", series will end.

[leksa]

Okay - for some reason, I read that and got this mental image of Todd (MY APOLOGIES to Todd, Chris, the Wraith, and Wraith Defenders everywhere!):

Spoiler:

das

I love it! It's soo funny!

[Craig the Wraith]

Ha Ha !i love that he has more fruit on his noodle than Carmen Miranda!

[leksa]

I'll give you a snippet: "If it is in our power to prevent something bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance, we ought , morally, to do it....An application of this principle would be as follows: if I am walking past a shallow pond and see a child drowning in it, I ought to wade in and pull the child out. This will mean getting my clothes muddy, but this is insignificant, while the death of the child would presumably be a very bad thing.

The uncontroversial appearance of the principle just stated is deceptive. If it were acted upon, even in its qualified form, our lives, our society, and our world would be fundamentally changed. For the principle takes, firstly, no account of proximity or distance. It makes no moral difference whether the person I can help is a neighbor's child ten yards from me or a Bengali whose name I shall never know, ten thousand miles away. Secondly, the principle makes no distinction between cases in which I am the only person who could possibly do anything and cases in which I am just one among million in the same position...unfortunately most of the major evils - poverty, overpopulation, pollution - are problems in which everyone is almost equally involved."

Our failure to act and prevent a very bad thing from happening when it is within our power to do so is contributing to the worlds major evils.

The problem here is not that the wraith do not have an obligation to change, (because they do--their stubborn refusal to change because they think human beings are not of equal worth to a wraith is a problem--a big problem), the problem here is that many (like us) do not want to acknowledge that we have a duty and responsibility to stop polluting, to prevent local and global poverty, to prevent cruelty to animals. We are responsible because we are the ones causing it. Having discussions about who is more or less responsible, who should or should not give more or less etcetera, etcetera, etcetera is a tap dance around taking responsibility.

WK

OK. Now I noticed another difference in our points of view.
Since I know about this "scientific view of the life, universe and everything" I do not try to attribute the human one to the Wraith. And that what you described up is the human view. All that morality stuff are valid for us. Because that's our nature. That's wired into us genetically.
But, unless you assume that the same thing is wired into the Wraith as well, then you cannot judge them by the same principles. What if they simply do not have the same need for morality, sense of fairness, need for justice, etc. as we do?

I'm probably wrong with this assumption, because, the writers would not even consider this possibility.
So honestly I really now asking myself what's the point in trying to muddle trough all this when no one at the creative team of SG worlds will not even consider this option...
(sorry, I'm just realizing that regardless to my enthusiasm for the Wraith as new and interesting creation there is no chance they will be even considered as anything but current monsters which need to be killed off on the show. )

[Todd's Pet]

Yep, I had seen it in another thread but thanks anyway. While I'm sure he refers to Todd (who else puts a fandom faction in a frenzy? ), after "Infection", I don't feel that enthusiastic.

Spoiler:

What's the point of seeing my beloved Todd humiliated, insulted, trampled on, forced to suffer the death of all his people, robbed of everything he ever was? And even worse, see those responsible get out of it not only completely unpunished, but even better off than before? Sorry, I take no pleasure in witnessing a character I love suffer. I prefer to remember the admirable Todd of "Common Ground", the sly Todd of season 4 and the victorious Todd of "The Queen" and "First Contact"/"The Lost Tribe".

Hopefully, indeed.

Spoiler:

As I just rewatched "Infection", I have to subscribe to I don't remember whose interpretation that Sheppard only lets Todd go at the end because he believes Todd will probably die anyway. I still think he feels guilty of being surpassed in humanity by this wraith AGAIN, but he wouldn't have honoured his promise if he had believed Todd would live and consider he's not indebted to him.

Unless someone else made the same point, that was me.

Spoiler:

I've read quite a lot of differing views on this and I do appreciate the points some of those who are more favourably disposed towards Sheppard have made. However, I do strongly believe that Sheppard only let Todd go because he had no realistic expectations of Todd surviving.

I also agree strongly with you that it has been sad to see Todd apparantly reduced to little more than a tame lap dog - HOWEVER, I think it was Das who made the point that Todd is playing up to Sheppard because he knows it's the only way he can stay alive - for the moment.
Todd's self-preservation instinct is brutally strong and he will do whatever it takes just to stay alive, even licking up to Sheppard (for whom he has some respect anyway).
I do believe that Todd is much more cunning than he is letting on at the moment and that, when he's stronger and the time is right, I hope we'll get to see more of the nobler, fighting side of Todd again.

[leksa]

So, would they be the *Grapes Of Wraith*....
Sorry!

Nice one!

[leksa]

I think every Wraith who is old enough that he/she has to feed on humans to survive will get problems. Killing someone is not an easy thing to do when you are not used to it. Maybe that's one reason why Wraith normally don't talk to humans?

Only if you assume that they are like us. That would be a problem for a human because of our nature. But if the nature of the Wraith is not like ours, then they would not have any problems.

[leksa]

Thanks for the caps, TW! I love Todd's face in the last pic on your signature. Meanwhile, I couldn't resist...

Spoiler:

[IMG][/IMG]

[Laura Dove]

Unless someone else made the same point, that was me.

Spoiler:

I've read quite a lot of differing views on this and I do appreciate the points some of those who are more favourably disposed towards Sheppard have made. However, I do strongly believe that Sheppard only let Todd go because he had no realistic expectations of Todd surviving.

I have to agree with you, although I believe he also feels ashamed.

Spoiler:

Feeling ashamed is nothing like actually respecting Todd, though. It's a very self-centred feeling and may wear off by their next encounter.

Spoiler:

I do believe that Todd is much more cunning than he is letting on at the moment and that, when he's stronger and the time is right, I hope we'll get to see more of the nobler, fighting side of Todd again.

Oh, I wish! But with those writers, considering what they have done so far, my expectations are very low.

Spoiler:

Todd can't win. Either he defends himself and is deemed worthy of being killed for doing the same the Atlanteans do constantly, or he turns into an *ss-licking human pet.

[Todd's Pet]

I have to agree with you, although I believe he also feels ashamed.

Spoiler:

Feeling ashamed is nothing like actually respecting Todd, though. It's a very self-centred feeling and may wear off by their next encounter.

Oh, I wish! But with those writers, considering what they have done so far, my expectations are very low.

Spoiler:

Todd can't win. Either he defends himself and is deemed worthy of being killed for doing the same the Atlanteans do constantly, or he turns into an *ss-licking human pet.

Sadly, Laura, I think you may be right...

Spoiler:

On rewatching Infection... The bit where Todd goes for Sheppard with his feeding hand then realises it isn't there any more... Does anyone else feel like I do that it was almost like seeing him castrated?
Like you I can't see any way out for him. He either stays alive by sucking up to humans, or he gets his oomph back, kicks ass and gets killed for it.
I will, however, refuse to give up hope...

Since TPTB seem to think there might be a surprise reversal of power in Pegasus, perhaps Todd will make a triumphant come-back after all...?

Please?