Wraith Defenders Club

[Laura Dove]

A few replies here and there...

*Rewatches Infection*

Spoiler:

A second later, she hails Sheppard, saying that Todd came up with an idea. So when Todd is in the lab, presumably, she says that "Todd" has an idea. Think he'll know about his name now? Presuming Kenny didn't say that part to him, yet. Although, in The Queen, the other Wraith probably also didn't hear that Queen Teyla wanted to kill Wraith...

Ah, true, I hadn't realised that he must have heard it there! Bummer TPTB never cared to show Todd's reaction when first hearing his human name.

Spoiler:

Edit: I just rewatched the scenes. He isn't really killing killing the Wraith. When the pod malfunctions, they just won't open. So if they don't malfunction, it is still shut, the tendrils are still connected to the Wraith, and they are fine, I think. Am I right?

Spoiler:

I think I remember McKay saying the wraith trapped in the pods would suffocate to death.

Das, I understand what you say about "Infection" (it's a reply to Spikey's thoughts too ), but

Spoiler:

I just can't get past the disregard Sheppard gives Todd and the other "friendly" wraith. To me, treating like that someone who, admittedly, made a mistake that could have gone very wrong, is unacceptable. Did Ronon even get a blame for ultimately forcing Todd to do crash the Daedalus? Did McKay get a blame for activating the Attero device, almost destroying Atlantis, and killing countless humans? I don't ask for them to be punished, but at least berated. But no, they are praised instead.

By applying the treatment to his entire crew instead of using his intel to turn against Atlantis, Todd was trying to make amends for the fiasco of the Attero device. And how are his efforts repaid by Sheppard? With being showed off hypocrisy in his face, then, once he forces Sheppard to admit the truth, told that he must save the humans without expecting anything but pain and death in return!

Of course Todd lost his temper when faced with such an injustice against him, with such... not even ruthlessness, but smug cruelty. Who wouldn't? I know I would. It's not a matter of wraith being unable to control themselves, it's a matter of people reacting to betrayal and moral suffering.

What's the moral of "Infection", really? There is a lot of gloating about compassion in the episode, but aren't the wraith ultimately right about it? Isn't compassion a terrible weakness, when it's ultimately what lead to the death of Todd's entire crew? Didn't Sheppard prove that he's completely unworthy of compassion, and only understands punctual deals? Isn't he exactly what so many fans accuse Todd of?

[Wraith Cake]

Sorry, I'll have to respond to this in little bits, as my hands are still freezing, and my mind is numb. My man and I have just come from an afternoon of Christmas Shopping and Church and it is COMPLETELY frigid outside!! I have a hot toddie right now, and may need a few others before the day is through.

First I wanted to say thank you for responding to my post. I love having these types of tête-?*-têtes. The only issue is I get sucked into the vortex of a fabulously interesting conversation and do not do anything else with my time.

So first, yes, the nature of good and evil:

I understand, but what is "good" is a very tricky question, even regarding life and death. What is "good", to let someone agonise for days, weeks, months, by refusing to take their life? Or on the contrary, to put an end to their suffering? Is it "good" to manipulate human DNA in order to improve the species? Or is eugenics unacceptable even when it only involves tweaking embryos? Is it "good" to grant every human the right to reproduce and raise children, regardless of their physical or psychological condition? Or is it bad because it taints the species as a whole?

Spoiler:

Of course we (us and everyone else in the world) can debate about this topic endlessly and the discussion can lead into all sorts of philosophical, religious, ideological and political directions. And personally, I do believe there are huge areas of grey. Nonetheless, there are some (very few) areas of black and white. And to be honest, we as a society want some issues to be clear. These black and white areas of morality do give us a sense of security and framework with which to govern ourselves. For instance, it is never okay to sexually molest a child. Never, never--this is a given. The UN also recognizes this. This is why governments can prosecute its citizens though a crime was committed on foreign territory.

Of course, I do have my own personal beliefs. Interestingly, being against eugenics also means that I'm very reluctant to accuse wraith of not having altered their own DNA to get rid of human feeding...

Spoiler:

This is where the discussion can only be limited--perhaps the wraith were only ever envisioned as two dimensional characters to begin with. And this also speaks to the issue of "how we read a text"

So first, from a narrative perspective if a story's antagonist does not have a "choice" to be evil, there really isn't much a of a story. He/She/They are like the white shark in Jaws--however, even that antagonist/shark was imbued with personified "intent" and maliciousness--otherwise the story just isn't interesting. Or it's a different kind of story--a drama. Thus the wraith not having some type of choice in their need to feed is short shifting the wraith--it basically paints them as the morons/cartoon characters they (are) -- as the writers have depicted them recently.
When there is no "choice" even if this choice is used for evil, there is no free will, where there is no choice there is no power, and certainly no power to change.

This is probably why the whole show is losing traction--the characters have remained incredibly underdeveloped.

Now, I will throw the writers of the show a "saving" bone in that there is a way to "read" the show that still allows for them to expand their narrative and not continually contradict themselves.

When I say "reading" a text, as I've said before, I am not implying that we would only accept certain things Carson has said. No I don't mean this. What I mean, is what one would "get" from what they read.

An example of this would be to do a "feminist reading" of the Judeo/Christian creation story found in the Torah--the first five books of Moses. In the second creation story Genesis 2 and following, it states that Adam was created first, then Eve. Adamah is etymologically close to the Hebrew word for "earth/ground". So a "man of the earth was formed--the first man formed from the earth was created". The Hebrew God is considered both male and female, though referred to with male pronouns as instances of authority rather than gender.

A feminist reading would indicate that Adam was not male to begin with but a hermaphrodite (both male and female)--if indeed he was created in the image of God. Therefore, it was not until Eve was taken out of Adam, that Adam became male. He became "male" essentially "half" because one half of him was removed. Therefore, the story does not change, merely the "reading" of it does. If we do not do this with the wraith evolution explanation put forth, then we reduce them to cartoon characters. Definitely free of guilt, but also free of intelligence, free of will, free of self governance, free of self determination etc. We owe it to them to consider them better than that.

Actually, the only universal good I recognise is "apply to others the same rules you apply to yourselves". In that respect, the wraith are somewhat bad (they wouldn't make runners of their own kind;

Of course, they would just eat each other, destroy each other's hive ships, and kill each other's queens.

they are not worse than Earth humans IRL, though),

This is the problem--the wraith are human. In other words, they are the same.

but the humans are much worse (especially the Atlanteans: Double standards is their second nature).

Spoiler:

This cannot be true, otherwise, Todd's fellow wraith would embrace his alliance with the humans (of course they would not consider him "weak" and "foolish" because of it--they would never think this of their own kind, and certainly not think less of him. They also wouldn't betray each other, nor feed on each other--a punishment "fitted" for a human. --The problem is they do all of this.
If, as you say--to use your reasoning, the wraith do to others as they would have others do to them, then perhaps this IS what they also believe, and perhaps this IS the problem. (compassion and evil usually start at home)

Of course I'm interested in other views: I would only claim to hold the absolute truth if I were the writer. However, I had the impression that you (generic you) were contradicting in-show statements with real-life arguments. If I read too fast and misunderstood the discussion about wraith evolving from the iratus bug, sorry, I'll blame the several pages of posts.

Anyway, if the point is to criticise the writers (in)ability to write credible science, especially biology in this case, well, then, there's not so much an argument because I completely agree! If you want to point out the many inconsistencies there are in SGA, go ahead.

However, that doesn't mean these things that were clearly stated on show are not "true" within the SGA universe.

Spoiler:

Yes of course, I know you're interested in other reading. When I post here, as we probably all do, I address the poster, but at the same time all those who read my post. So, of course I know Laura Dove you are a very insightful and enlightened observer. I hadn't thought for a moment otherwise.

All I mean, is that there is away of reading the information provided in the storyline which does not completely contradict science or reason. Then again, when I first started posting here, I formulated an argument about five months ago based on the first two seasons. Therefore, I would have to sift through the "new"information in the three seasons after season two.

Wraith evolution may, or may not, be artificial (the Ancients had incredibly advanced technology, but not so much wisdom ), but at the end of the day, wraith did evolve from the iratus bug to which human DNA was added and they are still closer to the bug than to humans, because both Beckett and Michael clearly stated as such.

Spoiler:

I will have to go back to the exact text, but again you can look at it like this: "The development" of the wraith started with the iratus bug--which is true. Without the bug, there would be no wraith." He was probably referring to the major evolutionary pressure influencing the human population on an iratus planet.
"Now, that they are more iratus than human" could mean he was arguably using a hyperbole to explain the extent to which the human population had changed. Again, it is all in "how" the story is read, not excluding information or rewording it.

In fact, I don't think real-life science make good points here, because we are discussing a TV show, not the real-life universe. They may be a guidance, but when a show has such an history of bad science and overall inconsistencies, then, well... if true science (whether it's genetics or linguistics) contradict repeated clear statements made by the characters, we have no choice but to look for an other interpretation, that doesn't contradict the show itself....At this point, I'll simply stop watching, I suppose.

Yes, overall I agree, at the end of the day the science is not good. However, I do hold out hope--however slim that at the very least the origins of the wraith can be reconciled to reason and hopefully to science.

WK

[MCH]

Go Spiky


Oh OK I'm sure your right. But I wonder if he could fly a hive if he still has some of Becket's retrovirus in his blood? After the episode?

This is abit OT but I think this lets get MCH time of the year had another little incident at 1am Saturday morning that did not involve the wraithy lady in the foggy night. Th temp outside was -1 below very cold.

Spoiler:

Went to bed and was woken by my door buzzer. Went to my window over looking the communal front door.
Was some what surprised to find 7 men in white underpants and ladies tights legging (I'm NOT making this up) opened the window and asked why they where ringing my door bell they said they had been out and where returning to get changed!!!!!!!
Oh yes and the one who'd not been drinking had snapped the key off and it was stuck in the lock. We finally got it sorted out.
It was -1 below freezing they had hardly any clothes on. But the worse of it was Ladies some of those body's definitely should NOT HAVE been undressed like that. Cold or not more clothes where needed. Needed a cup ofter to recover......Not a pretty sight.

Todd would have been much more acceptable at my front door.

Oh yes things happen in 3 to me, so sooner or later the 3rd will happen......

MCH

Hi Mastering
OT early morning visitors

Spoiler:

Nope they where out there at least 5 to 10 minutes while I woke up.... then we had a chat me leaning out of my
Then I went to knock on the flat 6 front door. Then I decided to let them in...... nearly got knocked over in the rush to get in..... poor darlings!!!!!! they were blue with cold......
Oh did I mention that the one who hadn't been drink and snapped the key in the door was a locksmith!!

Finally on Saturday we found we could unlock the door from the inside but couldn't unlock from the outside. Phone for emergency locksmith..... semi naked one had done a runner in the Early hours....
But Ladies power next door neighbour came to the rescue, using one lady eyebrow tweezer and lock oil and hey presto, key removed..... her husband was releived could have costed £150 to sort that out.

MCH

[dasNdanger]

Hi Mastering
OT early morning visitors

Spoiler:

Nope they where out there at least 5 to 10 minutes while I woke up.... then we had a chat me leaning out of my
Then I went to knock on the flat 6 front door. Then I decided to let them in...... nearly got knocked over in the rush to get in..... poor darlings!!!!!! they were blue with cold......
Oh did I mention that the one who hadn't been drink and snapped the key in the door was a locksmith!!

Finally on Saturday we found we could unlock the door from the inside but couldn't unlock from the outside. Phone for emergency locksmith..... semi naked one had done a runner in the Early hours....
But Ladies power next door neighbour came to the rescue, using one lady eyebrow tweezer and lock oil and hey presto, key removed..... her husband was releived could have costed £150 to sort that out.

MCH

A little OT...

Spoiler:

It sounds like my husband...he's a locksmith, and has been known to do this sort of thing all the time. Once, he locked himself in the bathroom of a British friend of ours. He just disappeared! We didn't know where he was, and our friend's little nephew, visiting from England, kept telling us 'he's locked in the loo' - but because he was so young, we ignored him. FINALLY, the little boy said - loudly - 'HE'S LOCKED IN THE LOO!'

Sure enough - hubby, the locksmith - was locked in the loo. BUT he wasn't in the loo when we got the door open - nooooo - he was just climbing in through the balcony! He had gone out the window, and shimmied along the ledge to the balcony, and came into the house that way. It's a miracle he didn't fall to his death, or something.

Men.

das

[dasNdanger]

Das, I understand what you say about "Infection" (it's a reply to Spikey's thoughts too ), but

Spoiler:

I just can't get past the disregard Sheppard gives Todd and the other "friendly" wraith. To me, treating like that someone who, admittedly, made a mistake that could have gone very wrong, is unacceptable. Did Ronon even get a blame for ultimately forcing Todd to do crash the Daedalus? Did McKay get a blame for activating the Attero device, almost destroying Atlantis, and killing countless humans? I don't ask for them to be punished, but at least berated. But no, they are praised instead.

By applying the treatment to his entire crew instead of using his intel to turn against Atlantis, Todd was trying to make amends for the fiasco of the Attero device. And how are his efforts repaid by Sheppard? With being showed off hypocrisy in his face, then, once he forces Sheppard to admit the truth, told that he must save the humans without expecting anything but pain and death in return!

Of course Todd lost his temper when faced with such an injustice against him, with such... not even ruthlessness, but smug cruelty. Who wouldn't? I know I would. It's not a matter of wraith being unable to control themselves, it's a matter of people reacting to betrayal and moral suffering.

What's the moral of "Infection", really? There is a lot of gloating about compassion in the episode, but aren't the wraith ultimately right about it? Isn't compassion a terrible weakness, when it's ultimately what lead to the death of Todd's entire crew? Didn't Sheppard prove that he's completely unworthy of compassion, and only understands punctual deals? Isn't he exactly what so many fans accuse Todd of?

Spoiler:

I do agree with much of what you are saying - but I think - I HOPE - this episode is a turning point for both Sheppard and Todd, and in their relationship with each other. I posted one comment on JM's blog in response to yours, and just posted another - not sure it's been approved yet. Here it is, if you want to read it:

Spoiler:

PS @ Laura Dove - Now that I’ve had a nap …I have a couple other things to add…

Don’t get me wrong - you know that I have little tolerance right now for the team, and how they treat the Wraith…so I don’t want my above comment to seem like I’m winking at their actions. And I am in total agreement with you when you said,

“While a wraith has to sacrifice his ship, his people, his very self, and save a bunch of guys who have just sentenced him to death, before earning any amount of respect? I’m sick of seeing the bad guys go away unpunished and even praised in SGA, and no, I’m not talking about Todd.”

Yes - I fully agree. However, what I said in my previous post was solely in respects to Todd’s relationship with Sheppard, and visa versa…and the arc of that relationship in this episode…not all the moral and hypocritcal issues that were presented (I think I got all of that out of my system after Outsiders/Inquistion/The Prodigal - Woo! ).

So, back to this episode. In the end, even Woolsey pointed out that Sheppard had wanted to kill Todd earlier, but now he wants to help him. Did you notice Sheppard’s reaction when Woolsey said he was considering his request? Sheppard’s ears perked…the tone of his voice suggested that he was hoping for a positive answer. This was not the response of an indifferent soldier, paying back a debt. If Flanigan was playing that scene the way it appeared to me, then I would say Sheppard was hiding his true feelings about Todd behind a facade of ‘one good deed deserves another’. I think - deep down inside - he really likes Todd.

Now - maybe I’m wrong, but if he does, then he’s certainly not going to let the others know that he’s a bit partial to the guy. But I do think he likes Todd - or maybe ‘respects’ him is a better way to put it - because he sees himself in Todd. It’s something my sister has always said since I introduced her to the show - Todd is the Wraith version of Sheppard. I always disagreed with her, but now…I think I’m seeing it her way.

Shep can’t see himself in Rodney - they’re opposites. Sure, he makes a good drinking buddy , but they just approach life so differently. He can’t see himself in Ronon because Ronon can’t think outside his narrow-minded little box. And he can’t see himself in Teyla, because she can go the other way…perhaps a bit too reasonable at times for the likes of Sheppard. But Todd? The two are the same: Both commanders, trying to save the lives of their people. Both HUGE risk-takers. Both darn good pilots. Both loners - Sheppard because he shuts people out, Todd because he chooses a path that most of his kind can’t accept. Both have suffered untold losses - of ‘family’, of friends. Both are men of their word. Oh, I could go on…but you get the idea.

So I think Sheppard sees a bit of himself in Todd - especially now - and because of that he is finally able to empathize with him, seeing him as an individual, and not just a ‘wraith’. HOPEFULLY this episode will advance their relationship beyond the deal-making and death threats, and give us something a bit more profound, something truly built upon the foundation laid in Common Ground.

So…I can look past the bone-headedness the team shows towards Todd and the Wraith in general in this episode, and focus solely on the continued development of the relationship between Todd and Sheppard. Keeping in mind that this is fiction, I realize that for such development to happen, characters need obstacles to overcome. IF IF IF the ending had been different (death of Todd, Todd turning against the team, etc), I would be complaining about the obstacles, for sure. But in this case I see them as tools (for lack of a better word ) used to grow the characters - Todd jumping through Sheppard’s hoops, despite his illness and desperation to find the cure, and Sheppard still pissy over the Daedalus event, and holding a grudge that he was obviously taking out on Todd’s crew…and it all came to a head when Todd finally snapped and showed his true nature (not ‘evil’, of course, but instinctive), and then - so did Sheppard. In the end, both had to humble themselves to save themselves - Sheppard had to go ask Todd to help, and Todd had to swallow his pride to do so.

Yeah - these two are very much alike…even Todd said that at one time, if I’m not mistaken…

So, that's that. However... I REALLY like how you put this:

"Of course Todd lost his temper when faced with such an injustice against him, with such... not even ruthlessness, but smug cruelty. Who wouldn't? I know I would. It's not a matter of wraith being unable to control themselves, it's a matter of people reacting to betrayal and moral suffering."


Yes - you are right there. I was seeing it more as a desperate act in a desperate situation, not so much as lashing out against an injustice. But now that you have mentioned it...

I just might have to say something about it you-know-where.

das

[MCH]

A little OT...

Spoiler:

It sounds like my husband...he's a locksmith, and has been known to do this sort of thing all the time. Once, he locked himself in the bathroom of a British friend of ours. He just disappeared! We didn't know where he was, and our friend's little nephew, visiting from England, kept telling us 'he's locked in the loo' - but because he was so young, we ignored him. FINALLY, the little boy said - loudly - 'HE'S LOCKED IN THE LOO!'

Sure enough - hubby, the locksmith - was locked in the loo. BUT he wasn't in the loo when we got the door open - nooooo - he was just climbing in through the balcony! He had gone out the window, and shimmied along the ledge to the balcony, and came into the house that way. It's a miracle he didn't fall to his death, or something.

Men.

das

Yup your right...MEN....

After all the messing about on the Saturday I felt like they needed to be Wraithed.

OT

Spoiler:

At least your husband didn't do a runner cos they didn't want to pay the bill for the emergency locksmith,

MCH

[Wraith Cake]

I just wanted to quickly respond to Das, and say I think we all agree here, committing genocide on the wraith, is wrong in every respect. Then again, the argument loops, and we get back to survival of the fittest. As far as the humans are concerned, if it is a choice between the wraith and the humans, well then I think they're gonna go with the humans. The wraith, because of their specialized diet cannot wipe out human beings. They are too heavily reliant on them.

Also, I wanted to comment on the show. I liked it myself, but I probably will be in the minority on how I interpret the interaction between Shepard and Todd.

So, I will say it here briefly then I really need to get off the forum and do something else--like play Animal Crossing--love that game!!

Here goes:

Spoiler:

-Shepard is a military man and not a particularly creative one either. Meaning it is not his job (as I think he sees it) to "further science", nor is it to protect and explore alien life. It is merely to protect humanity and secure a future for human populations. Everything he does and says revolves around this.

-Todd is a wraith and an opportunist. He is good at telling people what they want to hear and appealing to their sense of "reason/emotion/logic/ego" whenever it suits his purpose. He cannot be trusted, but he does have a sense of integrity in that he feels he needs to give back to whoever gave to him so that he can "commit necessary" acts without feeling guilt. So that the scales are "equal" so to speak.
I also do not think he understands human nature very well.

-Tayla is compassionate, however she has seen the impact the wraith have had on human populations for generations and generations. Therefore, she can never fully trust them. However, she is not damaged, and thus can easily befriend and take care of someone like Elia.

-Ronon was a runner, and his whole life has been ripped away from him because of the wraith: His wife, his family, his friends and his world. He was made into a "pack-animal" so to speak--a "running" game for young wraith.
If he could destroy every last one of them, he would. Feeling sorry for them, or thinking in terms of anything except black and white prevents him from feeling resolved with his devastation. In other words, if he can direct his hate in one direction, he doesn't have to "emotionally" process what has happened to him. He is damaged, in no uncertain terms and I think anyone would be given his situation. He needs to get psychological help, and because he will not he's not a particularly good character.

Keller is evil because of her sex scene with Rodney in Brainstorm--anyone who can have a smooch, allow to be smooched, let alone have whoopie and be smooched with the most un-salacious character on the show, must be put down NOW. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Rodney probably wears those high cut tighty whityies--So revolting!!

I'm completely joking.

-Keller is a healer and the epitome of compassion. She is the confidant to all who feel a need to confess their darkest thoughts.

The conflict with Shepard: Todd was trying to manipulate John. Todd thought he could appeal to John's sense duty "you owe me".


I think that what Shepard was implying "Do you honestly think I'm a fool?" "Do you think you can play me like you do everyone else around you?" "Do you really believe all humans are that sentimental that they also wouldn't do away with an obstacle in a heart beat?" (Remember Todd says this to Shepard almost right after Keller moralizes to Todd about compassion, then tells Todd John is also compassionate in not so many words.)

"I don't owe you anything, and if you think you frighten me, I'm not even going to blink. You can just go eat my ---!!"

Todd really does understand so little about the complexity of human behaviour. He scoffs at Keller when she apologizes. I doubt wraith apologize to each other, never mind take responsibility for causing problems.

Todd does know that Shepard is a man of his word, and he may begin to realize than he himself is too, however inconvenient it is for him.

As for Shepard, he is uncomfortable with Todd because Todd is also someone who will pay back a debt, and feels obligated to do so. However, he does get endlessly irritated with what he perceives as Todd constantly trying to manipulate and "play" him.

Remember the two sides to this dynamic:

Wraith perceive humans as an inferior species -- culturally, emotionally, genetically and otherwise. And very easy to manipulate.

Humans see wraith as animals and completely barbaric, without any integrity and utterly untrustworthy. Wraith, will screw over anyone given any opportunity.

These are a few of my thoughts on the episode.

WK

[StarOcean]

Spoilery replies for Infection!

Spoiler:

Sure Sheppard is saving people. Usually by TAKING lives. Those tools are used for killing. It's not the same thing as being a doctor. I really thought that Keller and Todd scene was absurd, it didn't make sense at all. First, because she has a romanticized view of Sheppard's character, which I think is inaccurate.

I think her comment may have more to do with a military physician's view of a soldier's job than a "romanticized" view of Sheppard as a person.

I think it's still an romanticized, idealized view of a soldier. I really think that whoever wrote that line was trying to be profound. But they gone around and fell off, so while it sounds sentimental and thoughtful, the idea is ridiculous. Soldiers aren't Samaritans, and the purpose of the expedition and their military presence isn't either.

You make some excellent points. I had more the feeling that she was trying to explain to Todd the human viewpoint of compassion, not chide him for the Wraith's lack of compassion. I agree that compassion has no place in the Wraith's current culture, but if the treatment to eliminate their need to feed on humans if ever perfected (which now seems pretty unlikely) their culture would hopefully evolve to a point where compassion should become a positive trait, not something to be avoided as a sign of weakness.

Thanks. Though I disagree that she was trying to explain the human's viewpoint of compassion. In response to Todd's comment that he finds it amusing that a human would apologize to a Wraith, Keller said the reason was because Todd didn't understand compassion and that he viewed it as a sign of weakness.

The writer of that scene was probably going for something enlightening, but it totally wasn't. At the very best, it was confusing. Because it *feels* like Keller is telling Todd about compassion and how Sheppard factors into it. But it doesn't match up. I really find a lot of things wrong with that whole scene. I'm not sure where to even start because it's so contradictory from the standpoints of characters, continuity, and logic! So off the top of my head:

1. How does Keller know that Todd doesn't understand compassion?

2. Even if one viewed compassion as a weakness, that doesn't mean you don't understand it. And if compassion is not a weakness that doesn't automatically mean it's a strength. It's how you use it.

3. Keller is talking about compassion to someone who can be considered a soldier. That "lesson" is out of place, and possibly out of line. Try pulling that with a war veteran. (Dear god, don't ever do that! I had a personal experience with that and it was not pretty.) You don't do that because in that circumstance, you're the one being insensitive and lacking compassion. That Todd is listening is very strange. Which brings me to four.

4. Here's where it gets really confusing, especially since this seems to be the point of the scene. Todd tells Keller that Sheppard would disagree with her view that compassion is not a weakness. Keller replies, "Colonel Sheppard is a soldier." Uh... so is she saying that Sheppard doesn't understand compassion either? If that's true, why is she bringing compassion up with Todd? But then why does she go on to say Sheppard's job is to save lives, but using different tools?

The scene seems to be about compassion and Sheppard. But it doesn't work because Sheppard has decided to kill Todd's crew out of practicality. So is she saying Sheppard lacks compassion?

And Todd goes sounds thoughtful. But the way CH played it makes me wonder. Does the script confirms that Todd has taken to Keller's words, or does Todd realize that Keller's points doesn't quite make sense? Or does Chris H. realize it doesn't make sense and is playing it to appear that Todd doesn't quite buy it?

5. I do think Todd does understand compassion and knows that Sheppard has it. And I think Todd knows that they both have it for each other; it's one aspect and tricky issue of their relationship, though I think it's a small part being overshadowed by other aspects. They do care about each other in some way, but I'm hesitant to call that caring "compassion." But whatever part of their relationship that you can call compassion, does complicate them and it helps them gauge each other, but it's never been a deciding factor. Sheppard quite clearly squished any feelings of caring and compassion when he told Todd he didn't owe him anything.

6. There is no number six because I'm enamored with that scene in number five again and I've completely forgotten what I wanted to say. Oh well.

I have to give major acting props to Flanigan in that scene. Check out his eyes! He's holding back tears! Holy crap! I almost want to smack Keller for her snark at that moment. For someone who was just telling Todd about compassion that seemed insensitive to Sheppard.

To sum it up: What the heck was the point of the Keller and Todd scene?!

Spoiler:

I'm not entirely sure that Todd was "appreciative" of Sheppard's actions. He was very subdued in that last scene. But I think "I will not forget this" is open to interpretation. Sheppard kept his work and proved that he still could be an honorable man, but Todd may also be implying that he will not forget anything that happened -- including Sheppard's refusal to take action to save his crew and ship.

Spoiler:

I agree with what you're saying. But I think the writers think that Todd is being appreciative and grateful. It's the script tellings not jiving up with what is showing situation, I think. I feel like this is a retread of the Lanteans' attitude towards Michael. Nothing has really changed in regards to the expedition. Because yes, Todd was betrayed. McKay did turn the Attero device on. Sheppard did kill Todd's crew. The difference is, they're getting away with it this time and with a Wraith who seems like he's about to agree to Keller's viewpoint on compassion. The other difference is that Sheppard does have internal conflict over Todd.

... I'm not sure if I made sense. I just feel like this isn't much different from their treatment of Michael and that the writers are using Todd to try and validate the Lanteans. I think Flanigan is aware of the shades of grey and is playing Sheppard that way. I don't think the writers are and that's how the story is coming off as to me.

I really hate how there's the opposing viewpoints of the actors and writers in SGA. The writing is clueless but the acting is not. It makes debate very difficult.

Also, there's a lot of nuance and complexities of circumstances that just doesn't get acknowledged or written. I think CH and JF are aware of it though, if they're acting is anything to go by.

Slightly OT... but I thought Teyla could sense Wraith even while they're in hibernation?

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I don't know. Maybe. Did they say this? I don't think she detected the underwater crashed queen until she awoke.

I get the feeling that what she senses is supposed to be the "psychic rage" of the wraith or something. She could sense Elia, who was biologically pure Wraith but understood that something was different. So if they are all unconscious it stands to reason she might not sense them.

What I am curious about is why she didn't sense them when they woke up. Or if she did, why didn't they talk about it. Something was attacking their marines and trying to devour them alive.

[Starry Waters]

This is really dark speculation on the final scene of Infection, so if you are highly emotional, etc. about Todd, you may not want to read this. I'm haunted by it, but I definitely would have preferred that the idea had never occurred to me so I'm sympathetic. Be forewarned.

Spoiler:

This episode seem to revolve around the two concepts of compassion and duplicity. We see a dark Shep in this ep; for example, he doesn't tell Todd that he's killed his crew, etc. Suddenly at the end we see Woolsey and Shep debating letting Todd go. It's a complete turn around in behavior for John as he appears in this ep. Woolsey could also lose his job over it . Next thing we know Todd is at the gate and John is echoing words we've heard before of "A deal is a deal." Then Todd walks through the gate. But we don't see him come out. So did we see compassion (kind of) or duplicity in that last scene? Just where is Todd sent?

[StarOcean]

Spoiler:

Sheppard, on the other hand, clearly sees Todd for what he really is - Todd has revealed his true nature - what he will do if pushed too far...and I think Todd realizes it, too. Wraith WILL kill humans, no matter how much they like or respect them. Todd was ready, at that moment, to kill the best human friend he has ever had. It was a wake-up call for Todd, I believe...and is why he was 'pouting' in the cell. He had lost control, he showed himself for what he really was - no more pretending around Sheppard - Sheppard knows that he will kill, if given the chance...it is his nature, it is his instinct.

Spoiler:

I don't see how that's any different from how Sheppard treated Todd. Sheppard will kill Todd if pushed, no matter what he feels for Todd. He pointed weapons at Todd when he woke Todd up. And by disagreeing with Todd there, Sheppard was telling Todd he was deciding his fate of Todd and his crew. Which he did actually. If their situation was reversed, Sheppard would have every right to point his gun at Todd. It would be out of character and surprising if he didn't. And Sheppard already knows how Todd will react anyways because Todd took over the Daedalus and used it as a collisional weapon. Anyways, Todd has the right to be angry. He probably was in pain too. I thought Todd was acting a bit unglued with the way he moved and talked while gesticulating with his hands.

Spoiler:

What's the moral of "Infection", really? There is a lot of gloating about compassion in the episode, but aren't the wraith ultimately right about it? Isn't compassion a terrible weakness, when it's ultimately what lead to the death of Todd's entire crew? Didn't Sheppard prove that he's completely unworthy of compassion, and only understands punctual deals? Isn't he exactly what so many fans accuse Todd of?

You know... I think that Keller-Todd scene is throwing the episode completely off. There really was no point in it because compassion is not an issue. It's coloring the episode when it really shouldn't. It doesn't reveal anything except what Keller beliefs are. If it's trying to say something, it fails because there isn't any constructive logic.

I say we disregard it!

Spoiler:

In the end, both had to humble themselves to save themselves - Sheppard had to go ask Todd to help, and Todd had to swallow his pride to do so.

I feel it's more like it's the only choice Todd had in order to survive instead of a pride thing. I am hoping that the end of the Infection meant that those two had forgiven each other. Though Sheppard may be undeserving of it.

[dasNdanger]

AAARRRGGHH!! Too many good points!!

I just wanted to quickly respond to Das... *snip*

Spoiler:

You could very well be right - Todd is only trying to make Sheppard do what he wants - trying to play to his compassionate side - while Sheppard is just going to be the soldier, and not the moral conscience of the galaxy. Wraith is wraith, human is human, soldier is soldier. It all makes sense. But, if I look at it on the surface, regardless of motivation, I still see it as a turning point for these two to finally understand each other, and where they stand in relation to one another. This was the test of their 'friendship', and I hope it will prove to have positive results.

This is really dark speculation on the final scene of Infection, so if you are highly emotional, etc. about Todd, you may not want to read this. I'm haunted by it, but I definitely would have preferred that the idea had never occurred to me so I'm sympathetic. Be forewarned.

Spoiler:

This episode seem to revolve around the two concepts of compassion and duplicity. We see a dark Shep in this ep; for example, he doesn't tell Todd that he's killed his crew, etc. Suddenly at the end we see Woolsey and Shep debating letting Todd go. It's a complete turn around in behavior for John as he appears in this ep. Woolsey could also lose his job over it . Next thing we know Todd is at the gate and John is echoing words we've heard before of "A deal is a deal." Then Todd walks through the gate. But we don't see him come out. So did we see compassion (kind of) or duplicity in that last scene? Just where is Todd sent?

Spoiler:

This thought also crossed my mind. However, I think Todd would have to be the one to give them the gate code to where he wanted to go, so I am hoping he had some control in this matter, and didn't just step out into empty space. If Sheppard was THAT callous, can you imagine the uproar?? I don't think they could afford to risk such a move.

Spoiler:

You know... I think that Keller-Todd scene is throwing the episode completely off. There really was no point in it because compassion is not an issue. It's coloring the episode when it really shouldn't. It doesn't reveal anything except what Keller beliefs are. If it's trying to say something, it fails because there isn't any constructive logic.

I say we disregard it!

Spoiler:

The compassion thing was pivotal. First, it did establish that Keller is compassionate towards the plight of Todd, and the Wraith - that's a good thing. Second, it linked compassion to saving lives. Sheppard does have a compassionate side, he just shows it in a different way, just as the tools he uses to save lives are different from those of a doctor.

In the end, you do see Sheppard's compassionate side. He is concerned over Todd's health - I love his little nervous inquiry into Todd's condition. He also perks up a bit when Woolsey says that he received his request (to set Todd free). Here you ARE seeing that Sheppard feels something for Todd - call it compassion, call it respect, call it something...but it was compassion on his part that set Todd free when, technically, it was a real danger to do so. He didn't set Todd free to repay a debt, or to keep him as an ally - those were excuses, and I think Todd knows it.

das

[Starry Waters]

Spoiler:

This thought also crossed my mind. However, I think Todd would have to be the one to give them the gate code to where he wanted to go, so I am hoping he had some control in this matter, and didn't just step out into empty space. If Sheppard was THAT callous, can you imagine the uproar?? I don't think they could afford to risk such a move.

das

Spoiler:

If they did a Repliweir stunt on him there would be an uproar. I was thinking more along the lines of them shipping him to Earth. (I keep remembering that pic from EatG.) It just seems so out of character for Shep to be acting one way and then do a total turn around like that. In spite of his acting so sincere in Woolsey's office, it made me suspicious. I forgot about the gate address dial out, but Todd was brought by the Marines from the infirmary wasn't he? He may never have seen them dial. Shep kept his word once before, so Todd may kind of trust him, and may put it down to human compassion, which he doesn't really understand. Plus, he has absolutely no power in the position he is in. He doesn't have a lot of choice. I can't think of a really good reason why they would send him to earth, but I just didn't care for that look on Shep's face after Todd goes through the gate or the abrupt change in his attitude at the end. Grrr, they are killing me here. LOL Well, thanks for listening and responding.

[Wraith Cake]

AAARRRGGHH!! Too many good points!!

Spoiler:

You could very well be right - Todd is only trying to make Sheppard do what he wants - trying to play to his compassionate side - while Sheppard is just going to be the soldier, and not the moral conscience of the galaxy. Wraith is wraith, human is human, soldier is soldier. It all makes sense. But, if I look at it on the surface, regardless of motivation, I still see it as a turning point for these two to finally understand each other, and where they stand in relation to one another. This was the test of their 'friendship', and I hope it will prove to have positive results.

das

Well I completely agree. I think it was a turning point. Perhpas Todd will stop playing games, and Shepard will stop viewing everything and everyone so black and white.


WK

[dasNdanger]

Well I completely agree. I think it was a turning point. Perhpas Todd will stop playing games, and Shepard will stop viewing everything and everyone so black and white.


WK

Precisely. I can't remember if I said something to that effect in one of my ramblings, or not - but I had at least thought it. It's the only way for these two to move on, and for something good to come out of it all.


das