Wraith Defenders Club

[dasNdanger]

Well...

Spoiler:

they ARE monsters. This fits in with my world view of them, and I think where we've always agreed to disagree. As you know, I've always seen them as people with buggy benefits: thinking, talking, walking, complex beings who have a cultural belief in brutality--it's not inherent i.e. Elia. And think of what Todd said, "our culture is not like your culture". It's not innate. Lions, Tigers, Great White Sharks are fierce but they're not mysterious--we know what they're about, and keep a healthy respect for them. In other words, they're not evil. A being with "Person hood", on the other hand, has the ability to stare into the abyss with conscious choice. The wraith will always be mysterious because they, as a culture, embrace evil--they believe it is powerful, otherwise why have such rigid short term thinking? And evil is always incomprehensible to a certain extent: because essentially It Is chaos--disorder, anarchy. So, if they are the messengers of chaos, then this is exactly what they need to be. I want to see the reason why they are so feared, and not simply because they feed on people. This is why it is so beautiful and so sweet, when they "choose" not to be. Think: the vikings were exactly like this (brutal, brutal) and there is a great deal of history looking back at them romantically.

Nahhhh... I don't love them because I believe they are ruled by their instincts and therefore cannot help what they do!--nah. They're not ruled by their instinct any more than people are "ruled" by instincts. Sure they have them, but they're not slaves to their compulsions--they're in COMPLETE control, and this is exactly how they like it. At times it may be difficult (like with those who go on hunger strikes), and like Todd who resisted feeding on Sheppard many times, even when he stood nothing to gain. No, the wraith are conscience, sentient "people" who are in complete control of their choices. And therefore, are completely responsible for the choices they make.



You don't think the wraith have blood lust? They have blood lust. A great deal of blood lust. Why would the "conscience" driven Lantians, i.e. Tayla say in the Queen "The wraith may not be worth our consideration..." If they were "victims" e.g. not in control of their choices? To take away their control of choice is to take away their "power" to make those choices. It is to make them victims. And the only victims I see for the wraith, are the wraith themselves--their brutal culture will destroy them. Which it's already doing.


The beauty I see is not in their brutality, obviously. Though, I've always found that struggle within any people fascinating: the struggle for the conscience to over come the culture. There are many examples in our own societies. Those who went against society, though certain culturally sanctioned acts of brutality were the norm.

So, if the wraith are going to be evil, let's seem them evil, brutally, reprehensibly, despicably evil--void of all reason, evil. Yes bring this on.


WK

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I accept what the show has revealed - that they are controlled by their instincts, like animals. True, they can make certain choices (which is nice), but both Micheal and Ellia were used to show that the Wraith are driven by an instinctive NEED to feed.

Can they find another way? Perhaps. Right now - this is the way they know, and accept because it is of most benefit to them, just as we choose to eat foods that are of most benefit to us. And I do not see them as 'embracing evil', or evil in any way (though an individual my prove to be evil, but not their society as a whole). But then again, I see them as bugs who have taken on human characteristics, not the other way around, as you do. Bugs governed by a different moral and social code. Bugs with different rules. I thought The Queen made that quite clear - it has nothing to do with choosing to be 'evil', but by having a different view of life, based on their biology and heritage.

Again - I see them as closer to animals/insects in their instincts and their social structure. This is the way things are for them - always have been for them. It's not evil, because it's not based on human morality. Todd is just learning about human morality...it's new to him. Perhaps it will make him different, who knows. But much of what humans are about is so very foreign to the Wraith, it will take time. Just because they haven't embraced human morality doesn't make them evil - they are not human, as is evident by their disdainful use of the word at times.

They are not unlike Klingons, who - though a brutal society - were not evil. They were also not human, despite having human characteristics. They were - like the Wraith - a culture ruled by a different code of honor and morality, just like the Wraith. Not evil - not vicious for the sake of being vicious - but different, based on their society.

I prefer not to compare the Wraith to past human cultures, since - again - they are not human. It makes more sense to me to compare them to animals or insects, since that is where they came from. Bugs - big, beautiful bugs that, through natural selection, took on the best physical attributes humans had to offer. But MENTALLY, they are still bugs.

And bugs, even spiders *shudder*, are not evil.

So, yeah - we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


das

[Laura Dove]

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I accept what the show has revealed - that they are controlled by their instincts, like animals. True, they can make certain choices (which is nice), but both Micheal and Ellia were used to show that the Wraith are driven by an instinctive NEED to feed.
[...]
I prefer not to compare the Wraith to past human cultures, since - again - they are not human. It makes more sense to me to compare them to animals or insects, since that is where they came from. Bugs - big, beautiful bugs that, through natural selection, took on the best physical attributes humans had to offer. But MENTALLY, they are still bugs.

My vision is closer to Wraith Cake's: To me, it's rather obvious that Wraith are as animal as we humans are -- no more, no less. Ellia proved that they are not controlled by their instincts, or she would have fed on her father and killed him long before HE had to tell her to do it. Todd, while starving, was able to stop feeding on Sheppard, not once, but twice.

Yes, wraith do feel the urge, the instinct to feed, which seems stronger than a human hunger. And yet, even humans resort to killing and eating each other when faced with starvation. Although we fantasise being "pure" and detached from our instincts, the truth is we are not. It's just that we live in a comfortable enough environment for us not to feel them too badly, and that the ones that we submit to are socially accepted. Just like the wraith among their kind.

I would compare wraith hunger with drug addiction. Are drug addicts less human than people who are not? To me, the answer is no; it's just that their need is stronger than what we usually face in a normal life. Similarly, if you force someone to choose between killing a stranger and suffering an unbearable torture, do you seriously believe most humans would choose torture? People are killed every day for much, much less...

However, I have to disagree with Wraith Cake about wraith evilness. They do not embrace evil, because in their opinion, what they do is not evil. Their morality is different from ours, but they do have a morality. While Earth civilisations change fast enough for us to now consider slavery a bad thing, wraith barely evolve, because of their unlimited lifespans. Moreover, their hive mentality make them even more gregarious than humans, which in turn means that even fewer of them will rebel against the established order. Those who do are likely to be killed anyway?

Human civilisations on Earth are destroyed by external intrusions when they reach the point when they become unable to evolve. It's the confrontation with something external that brings down civilisations; but wraith never faced an external intervention in 10,000 years. And now, within a few years, their civilisation is collapsing because of a handful of humans. But this absence of interaction with anything outside their own explains why their ways didn't evolve: They would have needed an external interaction for that. You can't really change a civilisation from the inside.

So no, I don't see wraith as mindless killing machines (which is fortunate to me: I don't find mindless killing machine any interesting ), but I don't see them as willingly embracing evil either. They are simply people with a different morality who force us to reconsider our own, and that's what I love in them.

[Wraith Cake]

Wraith picture

Spoiler:

Oooh.... Nice looking Wraith. hair looks a bit messy I guess he's been running round the forest chasing his prey . He kind of looks a bit like Steve.

LS

I mean, how can anyone think these guys are unattractive? I think there's some silly aesthetic measurement somewhere for human facial beauty that is universal: symmetrical face, short upper lip, strong cheekbones, strong forehead and jawline for males--this wraith totally has that face. Obviously evil does not equal ugly for wraith.


WK

[masterling]

http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...s/sgacaps.html

^ great site for pictures.

thanks!!!!

[Wraith Cake]

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I accept what the show has revealed - that they are controlled by their instincts, like animals. True, they can make certain choices (which is nice), but both Micheal and Ellia were used to show that the Wraith are driven by an instinctive NEED to feed.

Can they find another way? Perhaps. Right now - this is the way they know, and accept because it is of most benefit to them, just as we choose to eat foods that are of most benefit to us. And I do not see them as 'embracing evil', or evil in any way (though an individual my prove to be evil, but not their society as a whole). But then again, I see them as bugs who have taken on human characteristics, not the other way around, as you do. Bugs governed by a different moral and social code. Bugs with different rules. I thought The Queen made that quite clear - it has nothing to do with choosing to be 'evil', but by having a different view of life, based on their biology and heritage.

Again - I see them as closer to animals/insects in their instincts and their social structure. This is the way things are for them - always have been for them. It's not evil, because it's not based on human morality. Todd is just learning about human morality...it's new to him. Perhaps it will make him different, who knows. But much of what humans are about is so very foreign to the Wraith, it will take time. Just because they haven't embraced human morality doesn't make them evil - they are not human, as is evident by their disdainful use of the word at times.

They are not unlike Klingons, who - though a brutal society - were not evil. They were also not human, despite having human characteristics. They were - like the Wraith - a culture ruled by a different code of honor and morality, just like the Wraith. Not evil - not vicious for the sake of being vicious - but different, based on their society.

I prefer not to compare the Wraith to past human cultures, since - again - they are not human. It makes more sense to me to compare them to animals or insects, since that is where they came from. Bugs - big, beautiful bugs that, through natural selection, took on the best physical attributes humans had to offer. But MENTALLY, they are still bugs.

And bugs, even spiders *shudder*, are not evil.

So, yeah - we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


das

This is going to be a long one, so I'll put it in spoilers quotations.

Spoiler:

I'm trying to respond to this interesting discussion and my kitties (who are getting bigger and have found a way to jump high) are either playing jump rope one the computer cords (I'll have to kick them out of this room for the moment) or have found every tassel on the end of every book mark stuck in my books in the bookshelf facing this computer. On top of the issue of them using me as a jungle gym!!

Anyhow (*sigh*) Okay, how where to begin?

one,

Das writes: I accept what the show has revealed - that they are controlled by their instincts, like animals. True, they can make certain choices (which is nice), but both Micheal and Ellia were used to show that the Wraith are driven by an instinctive NEED to feed.

how do you account for the several examples of when various wraith have controlled their instincts? I'll use humans as an example, simply because humans are the closest in terms of their intellectual complexity in the Pegasus Galaxy (intelligent, complex etc.).

A) All creatures great and small, that live in social structures overcome their individual instinct for survival. Think of carpenter ants; they will commit suicide so that their bodies form a bridge for the rest of their co-colonists to survive the crossing of a stream. Japanese fighter pilots did the same in world WWII for the sake of the emperor and the sake of Japan. (There are a plethora of examples of this type of behaviour in colony based creatures, humans and otherwise) I think anyone would agree this is a basic "over-coming" of the absolute imperative of survival. Anyone who lives in a city overcomes their basic day to day "instincts", hopefully. That is why we are able to get to work without pulling out our rolled newspaper and swatting everyone out of the way on route to the subway train door. If you watch two-year olds, they will do this (bam, bam, bam, bam--then laugh while he/she has left a trail of tears in their wake). On a daily basis, the wraith must overcome their instincts or they would not live in a hive ship. To get along, you have to put aside your incivility and be gracious.

B) There are also many examples of the wraith censuring their strongest instincts. For instance, Elia would not spend time with the other wraith who was wandering the forest, she did not kill her foster father (and she probably didn't know about reverse feeding), but merely aged him slightly. She ate rarely, and far away from her home with her father--this is censoring. She was definitely not taking as much as she could.
Todd did the same, many many examples in Common Ground, and in Miller's Crossing. Dogs and cats, and wild cats and wolves, for instance, will forgo food when they are grieving. There may not be anything wrong with them physically, but the stress of having their partner, or mate removed from them or killed stops them from the basic need to eat.

C) The only creatures that generally do not censor their instincts (I mean instinct to eat) are creatures that are not "social" i.e. larger predatory sharks, and reptiles/amphibians that do not have a complex organ (a brain) between their ears, so to speak. However, even these types of creatures will forgo eating if they are spawning. Alligators will not eat for six weeks while they wait for their eggs to hatch. So this overcoming of instinct is not a rare localized thing. The more intellectually complex a creature is the more they will stave off instinct for a greater reward later. I've just disciplined one of my kitties for crawling up my leg. He is sulking in the corner and the mood in the room has become a little sullen. However, if he wants to have a good relationship with mummy (which he does), he will put off his immediate desire to be "up" and be content to wait until mummy lets him up. Just like with children, we help them to organise their impulses. Think of the episode The Queen. When Todd was training Tayla she said "it is understandable..." and he said "it may be understandable, but it is not acceptable! Again!!!" Until she learned to overcome her apprehension with being on the throne.

2)

Can they find another way? Perhaps. Right now - this is the way they know, and accept because it is of most benefit to them, just as we choose to eat foods that are of most benefit to us. And I do not see them as 'embracing evil', or evil in any way (though an individual my prove to be evil, but not their society as a whole). But then again, I see them as bugs who have taken on human characteristics, not the other way around, as you do. Bugs governed by a different moral and social code. Bugs with different rules. I thought The Queen made that quite clear - it has nothing to do with choosing to be 'evil', but by having a different view of life, based on their biology and heritage.

I have to say in the Queen there was no mention of this life style not being a "choice". And it did not clarify this in anyway shape or form. Todd was merely saying that his culture was different from the Lantian culture. Therefore, because "they" govern themselves differently than the Lantians, one (Tayla) cannot take one small part of the culture i.e. killing the queen the way he did to gain power, and say the system does not "work" as a whole. Obviously wraith society works, or it would not exist. And what were Tayla's concerns? Her safety, the safety of the mission. At that immediate instance, was she making a moral judgement of Todd? We already know how she feels about the wraith. She said to him, are you crazy--this is a reckless plan" (in other words a plan that would get them all killed) Tayla cares little for the wraith and has already made her moral judgement of them. If they all kill each other, for her, it would not be soon enough.


A) They do quite obviously have a different moral and social code, but as Todd said it is 'cultural' not inherent. All people manage to have a culture, this seems to be a phenomenon of "people" but how that culture "looks" the rules that govern that culture ultimately determine how long it will survive.

B) It appears most find the words "good, evil, morality" difficult judgements to embrace. Perhaps other descriptors such as "brutal", "inflexible", "rigid", "destructive", "disregard for the sanctity of life" are precise definitions used to describe societies that clearly behave this way.

I'll continue in the next post.

WK

[Wraith Cake]

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I accept what the show has revealed - that they are controlled by their instincts, like animals. True, they can make certain choices (which is nice), but both Micheal and Ellia were used to show that the Wraith are driven by an instinctive NEED to feed.

Can they find another way? Perhaps. Right now - this is the way they know, and accept because it is of most benefit to them, just as we choose to eat foods that are of most benefit to us. And I do not see them as 'embracing evil', or evil in any way (though an individual my prove to be evil, but not their society as a whole). But then again, I see them as bugs who have taken on human characteristics, not the other way around, as you do. Bugs governed by a different moral and social code. Bugs with different rules. I thought The Queen made that quite clear - it has nothing to do with choosing to be 'evil', but by having a different view of life, based on their biology and heritage.

Again - I see them as closer to animals/insects in their instincts and their social structure. This is the way things are for them - always have been for them. It's not evil, because it's not based on human morality. Todd is just learning about human morality...it's new to him. Perhaps it will make him different, who knows. But much of what humans are about is so very foreign to the Wraith, it will take time. Just because they haven't embraced human morality doesn't make them evil - they are not human, as is evident by their disdainful use of the word at times.

They are not unlike Klingons, who - though a brutal society - were not evil. They were also not human, despite having human characteristics. They were - like the Wraith - a culture ruled by a different code of honor and morality, just like the Wraith. Not evil - not vicious for the sake of being vicious - but different, based on their society.

I prefer not to compare the Wraith to past human cultures, since - again - they are not human. It makes more sense to me to compare them to animals or insects, since that is where they came from. Bugs - big, beautiful bugs that, through natural selection, took on the best physical attributes humans had to offer. But MENTALLY, they are still bugs.

And bugs, even spiders *shudder*, are not evil.

So, yeah - we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


das

This is going to be a long one, so I'll put it in spoilers quotations.

Continued

Spoiler:

C) I also want to clarify the distinction between having a "corrupt culture and society" from the basic make-up of individuals. It is quite clear, like people, the wraith are not "born" to evil. Its society that shapes individuals and the choices those individuals make.

Does Canada have systemic racism--of course it does. Is there a divide here between the "haves" and the "have-nots"? Yes.

Does the US have systemic racism--yes. And is this evil? Of course it is.
Thankfully, like most western nations, there is a method for dealing with such injustices. There is an impassioned public that supports this system.

However, what of countries that neither have a method in place, nor have a public that supports one. Recently, it was reported that two women in Islamabad Pakisan wanted the option of marrying the man of their choice. http://www.newkerala.com/topstory-fullnews-17630.html
They were stoned then thrown unconscious into a shallow pit and buried alive. Is this evil? I think most would agree that this act is evil. The fact that the MP for that town in Pakistan supported it and the people of the town supported it points to a large "cultural" problem. There is a systemic brutality that is culturally accepted. I might be going out on a limb here, but I would say a large part of that culture is "evil". Are the people of that culture inherently evil--of course not! Is the system evil, mmmm yes.

3)

Again - I see them as closer to animals/insects in their instincts and their social structure. This is the way things are for them - always have been for them. It's not evil, because it's not based on human morality. Todd is just learning about human morality...it's new to him. Perhaps it will make him different, who knows. But much of what humans are about is so very foreign to the Wraith, it will take time. Just because they haven't embraced human morality doesn't make them evil - they are not human, as is evident by their disdainful use of the word at times.

They are not unlike Klingons, who - though a brutal society - were not evil. They were also not human, despite having human characteristics. They were - like the Wraith - a culture ruled by a different code of honor and morality, just like the Wraith. Not evil - not vicious for the sake of being vicious - but different, based on their society.

At the end of the day, whether we call them human, humanoid, humanoid/insectoid ect. all living things, unless we're talking plants have very similar ways of behaving. We eat, sleep, poop, breed and defend our home. It doesn't matter whether the being in question is complex or simple. Also, the way in which we choose to do the things we do, and the reasons for why we do them are pretty much the same. Human beings are animals. We are part of the animals system. We organise ourselves on a slightly larger scale, but really not that differently than other organisms. What did I read just recently, other than humans, the one creature that has had the largest impact on the ecosystem of forests and waterways is the beaver. So there you go.

So, we'll probably never agree on how or why we love the wraith. But I do hope that I have clarified how I see them, and for all intents and purposes how I process their behaviour and society. Obviously, they are brutal and monsters, this is why they are considered the black hats in the show; the reason Martin Grear has no problem "killing wraith". They are suppose to be evil, I think that's the writers' intentions, and their prerogative. However, good writers will also make us "think" and reflect back on our own society; make us consider the nature of evil.

WK

[Laura Dove]

Obviously, they are brutal and monsters, this is why they are considered the black hats in the show

You are contradicting yourself: Just like the Pakistanis you mentioned, wraith are not monsters, it's their society that is monstrous. However, I'd like to point out that even though WE consider that stoning and burying women alive is evil, in their own minds, it's a woman who asks for the choice to marry whomever she wants who is evil. Similarly, wraith do not commit evil things in their own standard; their evilness only in our own eyes.

[Mariellelita]

Hi! : )

I finally watched "Tracker" this morning. It was an ok ep. Am I the only one who thought the chase scene between McKay and the wraith hilarious?! I also liked the slight shipping reference.

Has anyone had a bad dream with wraith in it? : ( I had one a few nights ago. I was running and a wraith (who happened to be very cute *winks*) pushed me to the floor and started feeding on me. The bad thing about it is that my dreams tend to be very...vivid. I could *feel* the life being sucked from me. It was like his hand was a vaccuum and all of the energy I had was gone. I could feel the weakness and darkness of death coming. *sighs* Why do I always have scary dreams like this? lol.

Are there only 3 more eps with wraith in it? or more?

oh, and how do you make smilies on the posts? mine look pitiful, lol

[rien]

i just got to watch the queen for the first time and wow it is so much better than the transcript

it also generated some thoughts on the behavior of the bald wraith

Spoiler:

i make it a practice to trust no one i do not know. this is how the queen wishes it. follow me, please.

is it me or is the bald wraith looking at teyla when he says this. even though it is todd who has done all the talking the bald wraith whilst still responding to todds comments/questions/accusations addresses his answers to teyla as though she had been the one to speak.

and he does the same again in that scene in the throne room addressing all his words/responses to teyla as though she is the one doing the talking not todd. in fact i think that this is where he becomes suspicious because todd is talking too much and teyla after threatening to cut his tongue out for speaking out of turn is now allowing him to yammer on and even giving him the chance to persued her to a different course of action. in many ways it seems as though she is deferring to him something a queen would never do.

up til this point i thought the bald wraith was convinced she was a true queen and that line about being suspicious since she came onboard well she is a stranger to him and it is his job to be suspicious.

also when he goes to hand teyla the thingie and todd says you expect her to read it the transcript made it sound like the bald wraith was maybe being a lil insulting to teyla by expecting her to read it but watching the episode i got the impression that maybe he was used to the primary wanting to read stuff for herself and hadnt known that the new queen didnt bother with that.

i also got to see tracker straight after and i thought it was funny watching mckay run round a forest

Spoiler:

i thought the episode started out good and the only down point was that the wraith were so many and so easily killed. i agree with previous posts that fewer wraith who were harder to kill would have made a better story though i would also point out that it seemed to me the forest didnt start swarming with loads of wraith going willy nilly all over the place until after the runners tracking device was shut down.

suddenly the wraith were unable to track him/had no idea were he was and they would have known if one of their own had got to him hence the swarming.

also in regard to the traps i hink the runner guy had been hiding out on that world for a day or two before keller and the guys turned up. remember he said he came to that world cause he had heard that a doctor from atlantis was visiting there.

[rien]

I finally watched "Tracker" this morning. It was an ok ep. Am I the only one who thought the chase scene between McKay and the wraith hilarious?!

yes i think that was my favourite part of the episode. especially the treestump part

Spoiler:

is it just me or does mckay seem more confident in himself and not as cowardly as he was previously. from the look on his face he wasnt expecting the tree branch to snap and expected to be able to sneak away unnoticed by the wraith and didnt seem to be panicking as much as he would have been a couple seasons ago when being chased and hiding behind the treestump.

[GoSpikey]

Are there only 3 more eps with wraith in it? or more?

3? Where did you get that from? Almost the complete season is Wraith or Wraith-related...

Was Wraith/-related:

Spoiler:

5x01 Search And Rescue - Michael
5x02 The Seed - New Wraith info
5x03 Broken Ties - Rhys the Wraith
5x06 The Shrine - Includes Hives
5x07 Whispers - Info on Michael
5x08 The Queen - Todd and Queen!Teyla
5x09 Tracker - Wraith Hunters

Still to come:

Spoiler:

5x10 First Contact - Todd
5x11 The Lost Tribe - Todd
5x12 Outsiders - New Wraith
5x13 Inquisition - Flashbacks, with Michael
5x14 The Prodigal - Michael
5x17 Infection - Todd
5x19 Vegas - New Wraith
5x20 Enemy At The Gate - Todd (likely)

[Mariellelita]

yes i think that was my favourite part of the episode. especially the treestump part

Spoiler:

is it just me or does mckay seem more confident in himself and not as cowardly as he was previously. from the look on his face he wasnt expecting the tree branch to snap and expected to be able to sneak away unnoticed by the wraith and didnt seem to be panicking as much as he would have been a couple seasons ago when being chased and hiding behind the treestump.

Lol! That was funny! I really did expect him to die there, but glad he got away. What made it funny was the fact that it would be something that I would do.

Spoiler:

Yeah, he did seem more confident. I like him more know because of it.

[Mariellelita]

3? Where did you get that from? Almost the complete season is Wraith or Wraith-related...

Was Wraith/-related:

Spoiler:

5x01 Search And Rescue - Michael
5x02 The Seed - New Wraith info
5x03 Broken Ties - Rhys the Wraith
5x06 The Shrine - Includes Hives
5x07 Whispers - Info on Michael
5x08 The Queen - Todd and Queen!Teyla
5x09 Tracker - Wraith Hunters

Still to come:

Spoiler:

5x10 First Contact - Todd
5x11 The Lost Tribe - Todd
5x12 Outsiders - New Wraith
5x13 Inquisition - Flashbacks, with Michael
5x14 The Prodigal - Michael
5x17 Infection - Todd
5x19 Vegas - New Wraith
5x20 Enemy At The Gate - Todd (likely)

Thanks for the info. I guess I just assumed it would only be 3 more because of how the earlier seasons had lacked good wraith episodes. Can't wait for EATG.

[Wraith Cake]

My vision is closer to Wraith Cake's: To me, it's rather obvious that Wraith are as animal as we humans are -- no more, no less. Ellia proved that they are not controlled by their instincts, or she would have fed on her father and killed him long before HE had to tell her to do it. Todd, while starving, was able to stop feeding on Sheppard, not once, but twice.

Yes, wraith do feel the urge, the instinct to feed, which seems stronger than a human hunger. And yet, even humans resort to killing and eating each other when faced with starvation. Although we fantasise being "pure" and detached from our instincts, the truth is we are not. It's just that we live in a comfortable enough environment for us not to feel them too badly, and that the ones that we submit to are socially accepted. Just like the wraith among their kind.

I would compare wraith hunger with drug addiction. Are drug addicts less human than people who are not? To me, the answer is no; it's just that their need is stronger than what we usually face in a normal life. Similarly, if you force someone to choose between killing a stranger and suffering an unbearable torture, do you seriously believe most humans would choose torture? People are killed every day for much, much less...

However, I have to disagree with Wraith Cake about wraith evilness. They do not embrace evil, because in their opinion, what they do is not evil. Their morality is different from ours, but they do have a morality. While Earth civilisations change fast enough for us to now consider slavery a bad thing, wraith barely evolve, because of their unlimited lifespans. Moreover, their hive mentality make them even more gregarious than humans, which in turn means that even fewer of them will rebel against the established order. Those who do are likely to be killed anyway?

Human civilisations on Earth are destroyed by external intrusions when they reach the point when they become unable to evolve. It's the confrontation with something external that brings down civilisations; but wraith never faced an external intervention in 10,000 years. And now, within a few years, their civilisation is collapsing because of a handful of humans. But this absence of interaction with anything outside their own explains why their ways didn't evolve: They would have needed an external interaction for that. You can't really change a civilisation from the inside.

So no, I don't see wraith as mindless killing machines (which is fortunate to me: I don't find mindless killing machine any interesting ), but I don't see them as willingly embracing evil either. They are simply people with a different morality who force us to reconsider our own, and that's what I love in them.

Actually, I don't think I could have said this better. I like to watch the political debates in Canada and two years ago there was Gils Ducept from Que. Jack Layton NDP, Paul Martin The Liberals and Steven Harper The Conservatives. When Layton put out all of his platform, Ducept was asked to respond, you know start the debate, but it was amusing because he said in a heavy French accent "Um...a...well...I agREE wid evryting he say...um...ya...der is nuting I dishagree wid." So, there wasn't much of a debate. It was funny.

Anyhoo, I want to clarify that seeing the wraith as killing machines would essentially mean they are driven by instinct without choice in the matter. Obviously, because I am a proponent of their sentience i.e. their ability to choose they cannot therefore be machine--which aren't very attractive anyway.

And I also have to agree with your phrasing "evolved society". I used the phrase "Adaptation" and lack of ability to do so i.e. rigid. And it is true, that their entire society is falling apart because of a handful of humans. Clearly, this is not a culture that adapts to change very well, which ultimately is what causes many animals "naturally" to become extinct in the wild. (I have to explain, extinction is a natural process; what has happened in the last fifty years is an unnatural process of an accelerate extinction which is obviously quite bad.)

I do have to disagree that a society cannot involve from within, if this were the case then America herself would still be lynching and Canada would still be segregating the Japanese. The civil rights movement would not have happened, the abolitionist movement would not have happened and Malroney in the 80s would not have given the Japanese Canadians an apology followed by money. Granted, there are numerous societies that do not evolve from within and need an external pressure to force change. The ancient Israeli society was like this when the Romans conquered them. They were the most resilient to adaptation and change, and they lost the temple as a result.

However, I have to disagree with Wraith Cake about wraith evilness. They do not embrace evil, because in their opinion, what they do is not evil. Their morality is different from ours, but they do have a morality. While Earth civilisations change fast enough for us to now consider slavery a bad thing, wraith barely evolve, because of their unlimited lifespans. Moreover, their hive mentality make them even more gregarious than humans, which in turn means that even fewer of them will rebel against the established order. Those who do are likely to be killed anyway?

Saying something is evil, is obviously a moral judgement of one individual or society upon another. I believe, personally there are many, many, MANY grey areas in life, but there are a few that are black and white. Child prostitution, for one I would consider evil, as yes aside from barbaric, socially destructive etc. I would concretely say it is evil. Michele Landsberg (reporter for the Globe and Mail) in her essay "West Must Confront Anonymous Misery of the World's Children" speaks of example after example of children in awful conditions globally as a response to the "West's" need for luxury. For instance, girls as young as eight in Bagladesh have numbers pinned to their dresses and they are chosen by westerners to have sexual relations with. The man who runs this brothel is an upstanding member of his community and often gives to charity. Being a pedophile historically was not considered evil. Japanese samurai had cadamites as per course in their culture. Can and should we "judge their culture"? If we didn't we'd still be practicing and embracing it in the west. So, in other words, there must be some room albeit a tight space, to place "moral judgements" on certain laws and behaviours of society, otherwise how else would society evolve, and not just merely adapt?

WK

[Wraith Cake]

You are contradicting yourself: Just like the Pakistanis you mentioned, wraith are not monsters, it's their society that is monstrous. However, I'd like to point out that even though WE consider that stoning and burying women alive is evil, in their own minds, it's a woman who asks for the choice to marry whomever she wants who is evil. Similarly, wraith do not commit evil things in their own standard; their evilness only in our own eyes.

I'm being rhetorical, using exaggeration when I say they are "monsters". Obviously, we can't classify everyone in a society as "monsters" that's what all the negative stereotypes are about--over generalizations. Think of the spirit of what I mean. I love the wraith, deeply.

However, I have to say that in areas of ethics and morality there are always sticky discussion. On one hand we want to embrace everyone without being critical, yet if we do not make appropriate judgements, negative behaviour never changes. I have to say that there are some behaviours that are evil. And those who practice those behaviours will ALWAYS have a "good" reason to uphold and defend their actions. I mean isn't that what we're good at? Justifying our actions. Anyhoo, I have to run the man is calling.

Love ya,

WK